CAN SAYING 'YA ALY' BE A SIN.

[shamsu]

Under what circumstances can saying 'Ya Aly' be a sin?

[star_munir]

Why do you think it can be a sin in any circumstance?

[shamsu]

To Munir & Everybody

YAM

Is saying Ya Aly the same as calling Aly?


Shams

[kmaherali]

In my opinion it all depends upon the context and the intent. If the intent is to be in His presence then simple remembrance of Him will do as per the Firman "Whenever a momin remembers us, he is instantly in our presence"(Bombay, 2/9/1940).

On the other hand, shouting Ya Ali without faith or inner conviction about his presence or without the intent of following his farman will yield nothing.

[shamsu]

What is more important,

Ya Aly

or

The Farman of Ya Aly.


Shams

[Nurali_Barkatali]

Ya Ali

saying in any context in my opinion is no way a sin until unless you are saying /doing anything bad towars YA ALI.

and Farman of Ya Ali or Ya Ali
yar Ya Ali is important cuz u can only recognize Ya Ali from his faramins
so i guess both are important to each other.


take care Ya Ali Madad

Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
[email protected]
03002199037

[shamsu]

Saw an interesting paragraph in Pir Shahbuddin Shah's Book with the above name

What may be a satisfactory attainment for an ordinary man, and what may

be his pride, may be a poor achievement for others. It is said that what

may be acceptable from the good, may be regarded as a sin when done by

the chosen ones. People of no spiritual vision are quite virtuous when

they merely attest the existence of God, and (life after) death. But

this is entirely insufficient, and even sinful, when those who possess

the higher religious knowledge (ma'rifat), are concerned. Just as when a

baby does something, it may be very clever for its age, and quite natural

to it. But it would be quite natural to it. But it would be quite a

different matter if an adult does the same thing, -his action surely will

appear utterly ridiculous and stupid.

[kmaherali]

Saw an interesting paragraph in Pir Shahbuddin Shah's Book with the above name

The quote is very interesting! Though I am not sure how it relates to this discussion. Are you implying that it is OK for an ordinary person to say "Ya Ali" whereas it would be sinful for a Haqiqati to say it?

[shamsu]

Ya Aly means O Aly

It is a call to Aly

It is insulting/disrespectful to call upon he who is with you, within you.

A murid calls upon Aly so that Aly can be with him.

A Haqiqati knows Aly is with him , within him.

Now, calling he who is with you is just plain psychotic.

I dont think a psychotic person can be held responsible for his actions.

So there are no circumstances under which saying Ya Aly is a sin (in my opinion)

Hehe

Shams

[_thaillestlunatic_]

Yes, But the fact is we should all remember Aly is in our presence right

now at this moment and is until the day of judgement and even after that

how we behave, how we interact with others, how we commit good deeds

and commit bad sins are all in the presence of Aly. Sure a haqiqati

momin knows Aly resides in him and lives within him but Aly lives and

resides with all human beings (ismaili or not). The entire existence

is dependant upon him. It is the inner knowledge which is why most

people fail to realize this.

[shamsu]

Which Sin,


do you think can survive the prescence of Aly?


think about what I am asking very carefully.



Shams

[kmaherali]

Which Sin,


do you think can survive the prescence of Aly?


think about what I am asking very carefully.



Shams

So how do you explain the fact that this world is full of sins. Is Aly absent ?

[shamsu]

Yes Aly is absent from the awareness of those who commit deeds that you perceive as sins.

I am sure you have realized that while a muslim person is not aware of the fact that there is pork in his food he seems to enjoy it but as soon as he becomes aware of the facts he starts spitting out what ever is in his mouth too.

Awareness of Aly is what brings you closer to Aly

One of the ways to increase awareness is to do dhikr.

Sin cannot survive the prescence of Aly.

Just as we say that after Deedar of Mowla all sins are forgiven of everyone who did the Deedar.

The prescence of Aly is in reality the prescence of Aly in your awareness.

I believe that if the prescence of Aly is alive in your awareness then deeds automatically get elevated above good and bad & right and wrong.

gtg

ttyl

shams

[kmaherali]

The following verse of the Granth Bujh Niranjan summarizes this.

re tu(n)hee(n), ...
alee samare alee paaee-e,
alee samare sukh ho-e;
nipatt neekatt jo alee vase,
pann alee samarat nahi koee re...............................XIV

O You, ... If you remember Aly, you attain Aly. Through remembrance of Aly peace is attained. Though Aly is very close, nobody remembers Aly.

Remembrance of Aly leads to peace. When this peace is attained through Batuni Deedar there is no need to indulge in sinful lower pleasures such as illicit sex because they would seem trivial and insignificant in comparison. Hence sins disappear with the appearance of Aly (Batuni Deedar).

In the following verse of the Ginan “Satnaa Sarovar”, Peer Sadardeen says:

ejee hansaajeenaa raajaa jyaare jeelavaane betthaa
tyaare bagalaa taddo tadd naatthaa...jeere enne..............2

When the king of the soul came on the lake for excursion (i.e., gave His Vision- deedaar), the herons (evil forces) dispersed immediately dear ones! maintain....

[star_munir]

Can saying Ya Ali Adrikani be sin?
I have heard from some people that one say this only at the time of severe difficulty.
So do this tasbih be recite only on severe difficulty or one can say it any time?

[kmaherali]

Can saying Ya Ali Adrikani be sin?
I have heard from some people that one say this only at the time of severe difficulty.
So do this tasbih be recite only on severe difficulty or one can say it any time?

YAM,
Severity of a difficulty is relative. A situation may appear severe to one individual and may not be of any significance to another. How do we determine what is severe and what is not. It all depends on ones inner strength.

Also we recite in the end of the third part of our Dua: "And there is no sword (might) except (his sword) Zulfikar (His agency). Seek at the time of difficulty the help of your Lord, the Present Imam Shah Karim AlHusyani..."

So what is wrong in seeking his help at anytime?

[shamsu]

Just as "no task is too great for him"

similarly "no task is too little for him".

To ask of him signifies a helplessness, a dependence on him and this furthers our journey towards humility which is extremely important in ruhani matters.

[al-azhar]

I personaly think that when you say that tasbih, you are praying for all the jamat. There is always likely to be someone in our jamat who may need such help.

[star_munir]

Thank you very much KMaherAli,Shamsu and AlAzhar.

[saleemsadruddin1]

[1:5] You alone we worship; You alone we ask for help

When we say above verse in our Dua first part:

1) We acknowledge that above verse is true as mentioned in first chapter of Holy Quran

2) We Ismailies also acknowledge that to God we worship and seek help.

Now the contradiction appears saying Ya Ali and Ya Ali Madad.

Can anyone support his point in light of Holy Book specially in light of verse 1:5

[kandani]

The word for "help" in Sura Fatiha is "Sta'in".

The word for help in Ya Ali Madad is "Madad".

The word for help in Third Part of Dua is "tawassul".

Aly is one of the exalted Names of Allah.

So Ya Aly Madad means:

Seek Madad from Allah.

Seek Madad from Allah through His Exalted Name, Aly.

Allah's are the fairest names. Invoke Him by them. And leave the company of those who blaspheme His names. They will be requited what they do.
7 :180

Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.
17:110


Seek Madad from Allah through the intercession (tawassul) of Mawlana Aly (i.e. Present Living Imam).


Allah, the Most High, says to seek the means of approach (wasila) unto Himself:

“O ye who believe! Do your duty to God, seek the means of approach
(al-wasila) unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.”
- Holy Quran 5:35

Allah, the Most High, also instructs the Prophet to interceed for the believers:

9:99 - And of the wandering Arabs there is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day, and taketh that which he expendeth and also the prayers of the Messenger as acceptable offerings in the sight of Allah. Lo! verily it is an acceptable offering for them. Allah will bring them into His mercy. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:103 – “Of their goods, take alms, that so thou mightest purify and sanctify them; and pray on their behalf. Verily thy prayers are a source of security for them: And God is One Who heareth and knoweth.”

[saleemsadruddin1]

[arshad1988]

The notion of approaching Allah through the Prophet and the Imams - wasila (intercession), has been discussed in this forum on numerous occasions. Just search for the keyword wasila and you will get all the threads that reference it. Right away I can provide one thread below.

Doctrines --> CAN SAYING 'YA ALY' BE A SIN at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

Thanks for posting the link kmaherali.

The concept of wasila or intercession was also used during the time of the Arabs at Prophet Muhammad's time, whereby they would claim that pious people who they remembered through the idols would intercede, or would be a means for them to Allah. Why were they wrong?

Also, does the concept of wasila, or seeking the means to Allah through the Prophet/Imam hold when saying "Alyullah", as there is no distinction between Allah and Aly in this phrase.

[kmaherali]

The concept of wasila or intercession was also used during the time of the Arabs at Prophet Muhammad's time, whereby they would claim that pious people who they remembered through the idols would intercede, or would be a means for them to Allah. Why were they wrong?

They were wrong because the Intercessor has to be physically alive in order to accept Bayat and guide them accordingly. By accepting the Bayat, one also undertakes to accept its conditions, and idols would not be able to perform that role. As per the verse (48: 10) in the 4th part of our Dua, the Prophet was appointed by Allah to act as an interecessor: "(O Prophet) Verily, those who give thee their allegiance, they give it but to Allah (Himself)." Hence because the Prophet was alive, there was no need to seek wasila from elsewhere.

Also, does the concept of wasila, or seeking the means to Allah through the Prophet/Imam hold when saying "Alyullah", as there is no distinction between Allah and Aly in this phrase.

Yes it holds. The Verse (24:35) states that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth, and according to Shia interpretation the Prophet and his successors are the bearers of the Noor. Hence Aliyullah refers to Ali being the bearer of the Noor as per verse "We have sent you a Manifest Light (Nurun Mubin)." It is due to the Noor that they are able to perform the function of wasila.

There are three facets of Allah within the notion of mono-reality - the Divine Essence, Divine Intellect (Noor) and Creaton. Aliyullah refers to the Divine Intellect through which one approaches the Divine Essence - He who is above all else.

[arshad1988]

Thank you kmaherali.

Then technically, could we not call upon any of the Prophets/Imams before the time of Prophet Muhammad, since technically they also possessed and were bearers of the Noor?

[kmaherali]

Thank you kmaherali.

Then technically, could we not call upon any of the Prophets/Imams before the time of Prophet Muhammad, since technically they also possessed and were bearers of the Noor?

Yes and indeed we used to call the names of the Imams before the time of the Prophet in our Old Dua as a recognition of the fact that the Noor has always existed and the Imams have always been present in this world to function as wasila.

[znanwalla]

Let me try and respond to Arshad's hyperbole and vitriolic insinuations...

The most direct answer to your question is captured in the ta'wil of word 'Ayat' (The luminous personality of the Imam in which all signs are encompassed) which is the fundamental belief of all Shia Muslims and not just the ismailis :

"Mawlâ Ali has said: "Anâ âyâtu'llâhi wa aminu'llâh, i.e. I am Allah's signs and I am the trustworthy of Allah." (Kawkab, p.208).

Âyât in the sense of the signs of Divine power or miracles, are in four places:

(i) The higher world, (ii) the wise Qur'ân, (iii) the external universe and (iv) the personal world, but according to the Qur'ân (36:12) all these âyât (signs) are encompassed in the light of the Imâm-i Mubin.

That is, his light is the higher world, he is the speaking Qur'ân, the quintessence of the universe and a luminious personal world in true sense." [Source: Tawil 10: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Besides, the Quran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33).

On reading the above Quranic verse, one comes to the conclusion that the privilege mentioned therein is restricted only to the life time of the Prophet as it reads: “While you are among them.”

The Prophet is not among us at present...so Arshad, is Allah now chastising the muslims? is that why there is so much turbulence all around us? is that why everyone wants to fight us to death?

Maybe that is why some of you have so fetish for physical forms and appearances?

"It is mentioned in verse (33:33): "O you the people of the house (of the Prophet)! Verily Allah intends but to keep off from you (every kind of) uncleanness and purify you with a thorough purification."

By the people of the house or ahl-i bayt are meant the Holy Prophet himself, Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Fatimah, Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Husayn and (Muslim, IV, 1883; Tirmidhi, V, 663)"

"Seek the people of God! so try not to follow Mullahs and maulvis instead who cannot see beyond their noses...the quran will indicate who the "people of God" are?

Enter thou among My servants! Enter thou My Paradise! [Holy Qur'an 89:29-30]. So don't let Iblis clutch your throats....Allah is abundantly clear....do not follow conjectures and half truths and then come here to ask irrelevant questions as if you are so enlightened?

God does not speak to everyone, just as kings of this world do not speak to every weaver.

They appoint ministers and representatives so that through them people may find the way to them. have you understood Sura al Hamd? tell me if you have? what does it dictate mankind to do?

In the same way God has singled out certain servants, so that everyone who seeks Him may find Him within them.

All the prophets have come for this reason. Only they are the Way. (F 229/237)" [Source: W. C. Chittick, The Sufi Path of Love, p.122]

And so what did the Prophet of Islam ask the Umma to do? did you do this? No !

[znanwalla]

When the angels bowed down before Adam, was that a sin? or when the children of Jacob sought forgiveness for the wicked acts, was that a sin? when the Prophet (saw) sought Aliyy's help in battles, was that irregular?

"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Verily, I make you Imam for the mankind. Abraham said: And of my offspring? He (God) said:

My covenant does not include the unjust" (2:124).

Now how does one decide who is just or unjust ? perhaps more than one way...what does the quran indicate? and how does it match with the pillars you follow? - if your pillars of faith where ADL & QIST is NOT a Pillar then what is the converse? UNJUST !....so if your pillar of faith does NOT accept Justice and equity as part of your faith then Allah says openly HIS Covenant will NOT reach the UNJUST....now how much more clear can Allah be?


Do you think literalists with a fetish for physical appearances can ever or will ever understand the parable or the mataphors or the symbols or the relation of "light to light" or that of "isme Zikr" to "Isme Azam" when both are part of and originate from the essence of Al-Asma Al Husna?

"SAY: Cry unto Allah OR cry unto the Beneficient, unto whichsoever ye cry, it is the same...HIS are the most beautiful names....did you understand what this says?

Don't you know that if there was a sensible entity here without a corresponding "Intelligible entity", then the appearance becomes defective.

It becomes a hallucination or a mirage from which delirious melancholics would suffer and so then they come on the net to ask intimidating questions ! and cause fitna....

Just as a derivation cannot exist without a basic principle or "asl" from which the derivation is derived, one must know , that if the "Intelligible entity" did not have a "sensible enity" here corresponding to it, all else would be purely fanciful or imaginary with no reality at all...

As no "existent" is left or can be left floating free and so both are "Shahadat" and they are together the "imperceiptible realm"
( ghaybat)...i.e. the Creation and HIS Command (amr) i.e. again the spiritual and the physical disclosed effectively to mankind.

If ever the Exalted Creator had no connection of "ta'aaluq" to the sensible world, then the sensible world cannot exist and since there is such a connection evident, it becomes perceptible to the senses and the Command and the Word must inevitable MANIFEST and have a locii that is relative...to mankind ! AND ALLAH SAYS HE HAS CONFINED EVERYTHING IN THE MANIFEST IMAM ! Now everything also includes the Quran itself !

In the world of spirituality the Command is the possessor of the infinite Knowledge and power and all forms of perfections and knowledge pour forth upon the lesser intellects and souls...so everything else you talk of Arshad and party, is subservient to HIS Command (amr)...

"None is there in the heavens and the earth but he comes to the All_Merciful as a servant...(19:93)....

God is above all else and is absolved....Glory be to HIM ....HE the Supreme One is above what you describe HIM (37:180)...

All potentiality is brought to actuality only by HIS command (Amr) and by the light of HIS illumination and the guidance HE has sent......"AND WE have sent you a New Light and a Perspicous Book" !!!!

"OUR Lord is HE who gave everything its existence, then guided it..." (20:50)....

And so the existents come forth from the Command...

It is it's origin (mabda) and to it is everyone's return (ma'ad)....

The Command is the First and the last and in it the circle of existence (da'ira yi wujud) is completed....

"HE is the first and the last, the Manifest and the Hidden...HE has knowledge of all things..." (57:3)

[arshad1988]

Yes and indeed we used to call the names of the Imams before the time of the Prophet in our Old Dua as a recognition of the fact that the Noor has always existed and the Imams have always been present in this world to function as wasila.

Thank you kmaherali. Then what is this shirk the Qur'an warning the believers against?

[kmaherali]

Thank you kmaherali. Then what is this shirk the Qur'an warning the believers against?

MSMS in his memoirs explains the reasons for the final revelation to the Prophet. In the process he alludes to the various manifestations of shirk from the previous traditions:

"First, however, we must ask ourselves why this final and consummate appearance of the Divine Will was granted to mankind, and what were its causes. All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe. Then what need was there for a Divine revelation to Mohammed ?


The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh. Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created. "