kalam-e-imam-e-zaman

[samirnoorali]

Dear Admin:

Thank you for your reply. We are very encouraged by your documentation on this matter. Indeed Nagib and Alnaz are good people, and unfortunately the jamat does not have any access to see their side. Keep up the good work with the documentation. Along with that, do you have the announcement that was read out in jamat khane? We would like to read it to find out where it came from.

As far as the jamat is concerned, the announcement was not authorized by the Imam, but rather by the LIF. Who is behind the LIF? Surely, fingers are pointing at one specific person. If this person in question had made threatening phone calls, sent documentation under the guise of the Imam, and also used his power to make announcements in jamat khane, then surely that is something that must be exposed.

We look forward to seeing the documentation as you have mentioned. Along with that if you can give us a chance to see the announcement in jamat khane we can come closer to supporting the defendants and their struggle.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

[Admin]

As a rule it is easy to post documents provided by the defendant as we have been authorized to do so.

Just imagine, we post the announcements here and in a week, we end up with a lawsuit by LIF on breach of copyright on their announcement

But do not worry, the important documents will be provided every other day on the new Heritage web site under

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29750.

Admin

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad,
Thanks Admin and Nagib for documentation and providing relevant info for clarification on this issue.

[sheza]

I know this website does not claim to be "balanced" but the views of the authors are so very biased.

In accusing the LIF to cooking this up, you are also implying the imam is unable to control the leaders of the Jamat. i.e. you are implying the Imam to be incompetent. Think for a minute before glorifying your friends and relatives on what you are REALLY saying.

Use some common sense, the Imam is not a puppet at the hands of the leaders, he knows whats going on, the lawsuit could not be initiated without his approval.

PS: I posted this comment on the link above twice but it didnt appear, maybe its awaiting moderation, i should give the benefit of the doubt to the administrators

[Admin]

Most of the leaders are devoted and competent people serving the Imam and the Jamat with honesty.

There is no doubt about this.

From time to time there is a rotten ognion in the batch. That also can not be denied.

Obviously this is not the rule as the majority of leaders and volunteers serving in our Institutions are well motivated and dedicated people.

Admin

[knowledge]

I strongly feel that Farmans should not be edited. If the Imam felt that a part of the Farman needs to be edited he wouldn't have done the Farman in the first place. For example in the London Golden Jubilee Deedar Mowla made the Farmans about the leaders and when it was read out in the Jamatkhana the whole section was taken out.<BR><BR>How many of us have actually picked up the phone to ask our Tariqah Board Chairman that why are certain sections of Farmans being deleted. <BR><BR>I think these questions need to be answered by the LIF/ Tariqah Board.

[Admin]

Part of the second forensic expertise has been obtained by Heritage News. Since the defendants will comply with the court requirement to submit documents, this full expertise [all pages] which is part of the evidence to be presented will be submitted to the courts within the due time limits.

The signature on the letter in question sent to Mr Nagib Tajdin was found to contain 10 discrepancies by one of the leading Canadian forensic expert on signatures. This expert was recommended to the defendants by a lawyer who was not aware that the signature in question to be verified was that from someone who had imitated the Imam’s signature. But that lawyer has worked for 20 years on many files with the Aga Khan Council in Canada. So his credibility and the credibility of the expert he recommended are not in question.

This second expertise has also relied on 5 authentic signatures for comparison. In fact, the first authentic signature specimen was from a document dated 2009 which was after the shoulder operation of the Imam and just 4 weeks before the forged signature.

Again, the document in question is closely tied to the case and it is odd that it was left out of the statement of claim, as the content of the document with the forged signature is similar to the content of the lawsuit, and as a paragraph from the forged document was read in JK as part of the LIF announcement. The document with the forged signature will be presented also as part of the evidence.

The next exclusive report from Heritage News will contain the character of the forger, how he thinks, how he reacts in real life etc. from a graphology analysis which says that this characteristic of the forger is a textbook case and offers a description which was printed in a well known book published in 1993. The character of the forger is completely different from the character of the Imam from a comparison of the signatures. Chances are you will recognize the forger from the description...

The original expertise was in French. An English translation was provided by the expert and attached below are some extracts.



More here: http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29761

[sunnydays]

Part of the second forensic expertise has been obtained by Heritage News. Since the defendants will comply with the court requirement to submit documents, this full expertise [all pages] which is part of the evidence to be presented will be submitted to the courts within the due time limits.

The signature on the letter in question sent to Mr Nagib Tajdin was found to contain 10 discrepancies by one of the leading Canadian forensic expert on signatures. This expert was recommended to the defendants by a lawyer who was not aware that the signature in question to be verified was that from someone who had imitated the Imam’s signature. But that lawyer has worked for 20 years on many files with the Aga Khan Council in Canada. So his credibility and the credibility of the expert he recommended are not in question.

This second expertise has also relied on 5 authentic signatures for comparison. In fact, the first authentic signature specimen was from a document dated 2009 which was after the shoulder operation of the Imam and just 4 weeks before the forged signature.

Again, the document in question is closely tied to the case and it is odd that it was left out of the statement of claim, as the content of the document with the forged signature is similar to the content of the lawsuit, and as a paragraph from the forged document was read in JK as part of the LIF announcement. The document with the forged signature will be presented also as part of the evidence.

The next exclusive report from Heritage News will contain the character of the forger, how he thinks, how he reacts in real life etc. from a graphology analysis which says that this characteristic of the forger is a textbook case and offers a description which was printed in a well known book published in 1993. The character of the forger is completely different from the character of the Imam from a comparison of the signatures. Chances are you will recognize the forger from the description...

The original expertise was in French. An English translation was provided by the expert and attached below are some extracts.



More here: http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29761

I have to agree with Sheza. You're either suggesting that the LIF is impervious to MHI's authority, or that MHI is completely oblivious to the issues are around.

Secondly, I'm no signature expert. But I can say that that within the year my signature has probably has more than 10 subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, discrepancies.

Thirdly, Its unlikely that a respected firm like Oglivy Renault would respresent someone without confirming that the plaintif in the lawsuit is actually himself.

[samirnoorali]

The Admin is doing an excellent job with regards to the signature document. As I mentioned in another comment, the 'A' is very different from most typical signatures of the Imam. Since the document is deemed fake, a person would have been slower in trying to imitate the Imam's signature. What do you think is the forger's motive?

Samir Noorali

[nurdinnurdin]

I think the forged signature is not the real issue, also if forgery is involved then the appropriate action should be taken. The real issue is that a copyright infringement was perperated by the defendants. The defendants would be wise to admit this violation and admit quilt and stop this case to proceed any further.
The forgey aspect is not going to be a big factor, because MHI has sent subsqeunt letters to stop the printing of KIM books.
Who are the defendants kidding? they dont have any chance in this case and are an irritant to most of the community.

[star_munir]

I know this website does not claim to be "balanced" but the views of the authors are so very biased.

In accusing the LIF to cooking this up, you are also implying the imam is unable to control the leaders of the Jamat. i.e. you are implying the Imam to be incompetent. Think for a minute before glorifying your friends and relatives on what you are REALLY saying.

Use some common sense, the Imam is not a puppet at the hands of the leaders, he knows whats going on, the lawsuit could not be initiated without his approval.

PS: I posted this comment on the link above twice but it didnt appear, maybe its awaiting moderation, i should give the benefit of the doubt to the administrators

You need to understand and accept the fact that whether it is IIS or AKU or any institution..no one is perfect and we should not expect perfectness from any institution. Only God is perfect. People working in Ismaili institution can commit errors and can do the work which is totally against ethics or against wishes of Imam.
Its human beings that are running institutions after all...not the angels or God.

Secondly, its really very irritating when some one tries to defend the people working in any institution in wrong manner. Right is right and will always remain right and wrong is wrong ! Holy Prophet had said that for the sake of justice, even if his own daughter will commit any crime, then she too will be given punishment.

[star_munir]

The Admin is doing an excellent job with regards to the signature document. As I mentioned in another comment, the 'A' is very different from most typical signatures of the Imam. Since the document is deemed fake, a person would have been slower in trying to imitate the Imam's signature. What do you think is the forger's motive?

Samir Noorali

I agree with you. However its surprising that some members are sad not because of what LIF did but because some evidence has being posted here against the person who copied signature of Imam.

[star_munir]

I think the forged signature is not the real issue, also if forgery is involved then the appropriate action should be taken. The real issue is that a copyright infringement was perperated by the defendants. The defendants would be wise to admit this violation and admit quilt and stop this case to proceed any further.
The forgey aspect is not going to be a big factor, because MHI has sent subsqeunt letters to stop the printing of KIM books.
Who are the defendants kidding? they dont have any chance in this case and are an irritant to most of the community.

Why forgery is not an issue. Infact it is the big issue. What will you do if some one will send fake letter to some one with your name and signature. Is it not the issue? Regarding the copyright issue you need to read the point of views of defendants first before commenting on that.

[sunnydays]

I think the forged signature is not the real issue, also if forgery is involved then the appropriate action should be taken. The real issue is that a copyright infringement was perperated by the defendants. The defendants would be wise to admit this violation and admit quilt and stop this case to proceed any further.
The forgey aspect is not going to be a big factor, because MHI has sent subsqeunt letters to stop the printing of KIM books.
Who are the defendants kidding? they dont have any chance in this case and are an irritant to most of the community.

Why forgery is not an issue. Infact it is the big issue. What will you do if some one will send fake letter to some one with your name and signature. Is it not the issue? Regarding the copyright issue you need to read the point of views of defendants first before commenting on that.

If someone forged my signature, especially on an issue with such large implications, I would do everything I could to stop it from going forward. I would let as many people as possible know that It was forged. And maybe take some kind of legal action against those who forged it.

If this is a 'forgery' wouldn't you think that MHI would take swift action to put a stop to all of this?

The 'forgery' is a side point. The real issue is if this guys violated any copyrights.

[star_munir]

A question:
Accroding to Heritage News report "The signature on the letter in question sent to Mr Nagib Tajdin was found to contain 10 discrepancies by one of the leading Canadian forensic expert on signatures"
and then it is mentioned "The original expertise was in French. An English translation was provided by the expert and attached below are some extracts"
Why Canadian foresnice expert has given report in French? Can you provide the details about the forensic expert?

[sheza]

The Admin is doing an excellent job with regards to the signature document. As I mentioned in another comment, the 'A' is very different from most typical signatures of the Imam. Since the document is deemed fake, a person would have been slower in trying to imitate the Imam's signature. What do you think is the forger's motive?

Samir Noorali

now you are a forensic analyst!?!

ofcourse the LIF are human and can make mistakes, and I also agree that those in position of power are more likely than most to abuse that power.

but may I ask you, is the LIF/TB a democratic forum, did you "elect" our leaders? do you have the right to change them?

They were selected by Aga Khan, and if you believe him to be Imam, surely you acknowledge that he is a "slightly better" judge of character than you or a signature forensic analyst? or are you so arrogant that you claim to know more than the Imam.

Do you believe the Imam knows everything?

Do you believe that it is in his power to replace/correct the leaders that are misguiding the jamat?

OR

Do you believe it is your job to politicize and publicize any thing you dont agree with irrespective of its consequences? irrespective of what your comments "imply"?

Maybe you think YOU would make better leader than the current lot.

This is just arrogance and ignorance.

[samirnoorali]

If you haven’t already noticed, this is a very serious case. Each and every person posting on this forum has taken their time to write their comments because they are genuinely concerned about what happens to the Imam and to his followers. I don’t think it is fair to say that people on this board have any “arrogance” and “ignorance” since each person would like to see a solution which doesn’t damage either party.

We are not forensic analysts. However, this case happens to revolve around forensic evidence. It would be worth your while to notice that the letters are in question, and the person who wrote the letters is in question. This is what the case is about. If you’re not in tuned with the details of the case and you feel that people are making their own judgements then why do you even make comments? Just watch and read other people’s posts.

Even though the LIF and Tariqah Board are not democratically elected, they are still in a position of authority. What bothers us, meaning the people on this forum, is that many times that authority can work to harm the faith from the inside. Like the example I have given regarding Missionary Juma and many pious Ismailis when they approached Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah regarding Ali Allah. This was a significant event. Now you are saying that we are making it our “job to politicize and publicize anything” we don’t agree with, but that is not the purpose of this forum. Whatever happens to the Imam or the Jamat is our business because we are part of the Jamat.

If one day one of your siblings gets into confrontation with your father wouldn’t you consider it your business? If you went to your mother and said, “Why are they in confrontation” would you like it if your mother said “who are you to judge?” Wouldn’t you want to know every little detail? Wouldn’t you want to get involved, because you love both of them? Similarly, as a member of the Jamat, you would love Nagib and Alnaz because they are your spiritual brothers, but at the same time you also love your spiritual father, namely Hazer Imam.

So, it is important for you not to pass judgement on our comments. Even if our comments seem intrusive to you, they are simply comments that everyone has a right to give. We may argue about it, but don’t brand us as “arrogant” or “ignorant.” Focus on the case, because that is what we are here to discuss.

Samir Noorali

[sheza]

So, it is important for you not to pass judgement on our comments. Even if our comments seem intrusive to you, they are simply comments that everyone has a right to give. We may argue about it, but don’t brand us as “arrogant” or “ignorant.” Focus on the case, because that is what we are here to discuss.

Samir Noorali

I am sorry, my last comment was very rude, I realize that now. I also accept that you have every right to comment on issues affecting the jamat as much as I do.

I just dont agree with your point of view thats all, and I am still not sure that you realize the implications of your suggestions.

[knowledge]

Spiritually the Imam is aware of everything. <B

Hazrat Ali knew that Umar will be the first one to deny what the Prophet wanted after his death.

Imam Hussein knew what atrocities are going to be inflicted on him and his followers in the battle of Karbala.

Allah knew that Azazil was going to disobey his orders.

History has shown that sometimes people working close to the Imam have behaved in an unethical manner.

Just because someone works at the Secreteriat doesn't necessarily mean that the Jamat do not have any right to question him or her.

[sunnydays]

Spiritually the Imam is aware of everything. <B

Hazrat Ali knew that Umar will be the first one to deny what the Prophet wanted after his death.

Imam Hussein knew what atrocities are going to be inflicted on him and his followers in the battle of Karbala.

Allah knew that Azazil was going to disobey his orders.

History has shown that sometimes people working close to the Imam have behaved in an unethical manner.

Just because someone works at the Secreteriat doesn't necessarily mean that the Jamat do not have any right to question him or her.

Your examples are of a time and context that were slightly different than they are now. We don't do battles anymore, and we emphasize more on conquering intellect and helping others.

It does not seem likely that someone working close to MHI would make such obvious mistakes -like forging his signature and then making a worldwide announcement without expecting MHI to take swift action.

It does not make sense for a renowned law firm to take on a case without confirming that the real plaintiff is actually MHI.

I don't know how you've managed to convince yourself that MHI is content with knowing that someone close to him is trying to mislead the jamat. and i don't know how you've managed to convince yourself that a powerful lawfirm is stupid enough to get duped by a forgery.

also, the more important matter here is that the guys who made and printed the books actually sold it. and there is a very logical and rational basis as to why a copyright infringment is in question. this is the real issue.

[star_munir]

Spiritually the Imam is aware of everything. <B

Hazrat Ali knew that Umar will be the first one to deny what the Prophet wanted after his death.

Imam Hussein knew what atrocities are going to be inflicted on him and his followers in the battle of Karbala.

Allah knew that Azazil was going to disobey his orders.

History has shown that sometimes people working close to the Imam have behaved in an unethical manner.

Just because someone works at the Secreteriat doesn't necessarily mean that the Jamat do not have any right to question him or her.

Your examples are of a time and context that were slightly different than they are now. We don't do battles anymore, and we emphasize more on conquering intellect and helping others.

It does not seem likely that someone working close to MHI would make such obvious mistakes -like forging his signature and then making a worldwide announcement without expecting MHI to take swift action.

It does not make sense for a renowned law firm to take on a case without confirming that the real plaintiff is actually MHI.

I don't know how you've managed to convince yourself that MHI is content with knowing that someone close to him is trying to mislead the jamat. and i don't know how you've managed to convince yourself that a powerful lawfirm is stupid enough to get duped by a forgery.

also, the more important matter here is that the guys who made and printed the books actually sold it. and there is a very logical and rational basis as to why a copyright infringment is in question. this is the real issue.

Regarding the copyright issue, Nagib has said in the defence that he has not violated the Ismaili Constitution and has done the printing of Farman books as per wishes of Imam. Moreover, he has mentioned that he is ready to follow all instructions/orders of Imam.
Bascially he has not trust in the people who are working close to Imam.

Now we are Ismailis. We have Hazir Imam who is alive and present. He better knows whether the letters were actually sent by Him or not or whether the letters were real or fake. Truth can not be hidden. Lets wait and see what Hazir Imam and the court has to say about this matter.

[sheza]

Regarding the copyright issue, Nagib has said in the defence that he has not violated the Ismaili Constitution and has done the printing of Farman books as per wishes of Imam. Moreover, he has mentioned that he is ready to follow all instructions/orders of Imam.
Bascially he has not trust in the people who are working close to Imam.

Now we are Ismailis. We have Hazir Imam who is alive and present. He better knows whether the letters were actually sent by Him or not or whether the letters were real or fake. Truth can not be hidden. Lets wait and see what Hazir Imam and the court has to say about this matter.

by your logic, you and I also have the right to go to the Imam for any issue on which we do not agree with the leaders, and not accept his letter based on faked signature, we will need to see him in person to accept his wishes, do you see how absurd this logic is?

[Admin]

This is a serious issue. When someone use Hazar Imam's name to go to court against one of his Murid for the first time in 1,400 years and you become that Murid, you will also start thinking.

Admin

[knowledge]

Your examples are of a time and context that were slightly different than they are now. We don't do battles anymore, and we emphasize more on conquering intellect and helping others. Comment by sunnydays.

Intellect has been a part of our Tariqah since the time of Hazrat Ali.So dont tell me that those were the times of battles and these are the times of conquering intellect. And I think you need to refer to Farmans of Hazar Imam which proves that.

And to be honest I dont really care what the outcome of the case will be. My main issue here is that the leadership (LIF/Tariqah board)do not make Farmans available to the jamat and those who are trying to make it available are being ridiculed by sending those announcements.

If the Mukhi/Kamadia Al-waez and other people in higher position can have the farmans available for why cant the normal jamat have access to it.Everytime you ask that question the answer given is that the jamat will distribute it to non ismailies.My grandfather used to always say that if the non ismailies have got the access to these Farmans they would start following them before us.

Look at the rate of depression problems in the jamat.
Look at the rate of matrimonial problems in the jamat.
Recession guidance is available in all the golden jubilee farmans. Has the jamat got access to it. NO.
Look at the youths. Where I live in last ten years only one ismaili couple has got married. Rest of the youngsters have all got married outside the community.

Perhaps the LIF can give these figures to Mowlana Hazar Imam and give the reason that his guidance was not made available to the jamat by them.

Farmans are of considerable importance. They shouldnt be locked up in the Mukhi Kamadias briefcases and Tariqah Board cupboards.

In esoteric sense the only Copyright is the Murids heart. The Imam makes the Farmans and the heart of the Murid has the copyright to it.

[sheza]

This is a serious issue. When someone use Hazar Imam's name to go to court against one of his Murid for the first time in 1,400 years and you become that Murid, you will also start thinking.

Admin

I guess if someone is using the Imam's name without his permission the courts can easily strike down the case.

Also i don't know Canadian Law but i'm sure it's illegal to sue someone on behalf of someone without their consent, maybe the leaders are stupid enough to jeopardize the reputation of the jamat and institutions by this illegal case, I seriously doubt that.

[agakhani]

Code: Select all

This is a serious issue. When someone use  Hazar Imam's name to go to court against one of his Murid for the first time in 1,400 years and you become that Murid, you will also start thinking. 

I thought this case is over when Hazar Imam sue his two murid, this kind announcement made around the world, now you are telling that someone else used Hazar Imam's name and false signature and he filled lawsuit aginst these two publishers of KIZ, not Hazar Imam, am I right or I misunderstand your above post?

[star_munir]

Code: Select all

This is a serious issue. When someone use  Hazar Imam's name to go to court against one of his Murid for the first time in 1,400 years and you become that Murid, you will also start thinking. 

I thought this case is over when Hazar Imam sue his two murid, this kind announcement made around the world, now you are telling that someone else used Hazar Imam's name and false signature and he filled lawsuit aginst these two publishers of KIZ, not Hazar Imam, am I right or I misunderstand your above post?

The details of the case has already been posted in this website. According to the publishers of KIZ, they had been publishing the books with permission of Hazir Imam. They had got fake letters with fake signature of Hazir Imam. They had tried to confirm about it from Hazir Imam but contact was not possible. They have said they are ready to do whatever Hazir Imam will tell them to do.

[star_munir]

Your examples are of a time and context that were slightly different than they are now. We don't do battles anymore, and we emphasize more on conquering intellect and helping others. Comment by sunnydays.

Intellect has been a part of our Tariqah since the time of Hazrat Ali.So dont tell me that those were the times of battles and these are the times of conquering intellect. And I think you need to refer to Farmans of Hazar Imam which proves that.

And to be honest I dont really care what the outcome of the case will be. My main issue here is that the leadership (LIF/Tariqah board)do not make Farmans available to the jamat and those who are trying to make it available are being ridiculed by sending those announcements.

If the Mukhi/Kamadia Al-waez and other people in higher position can have the farmans available for why cant the normal jamat have access to it.Everytime you ask that question the answer given is that the jamat will distribute it to non ismailies.My grandfather used to always say that if the non ismailies have got the access to these Farmans they would start following them before us.

Look at the rate of depression problems in the jamat.
Look at the rate of matrimonial problems in the jamat.
Recession guidance is available in all the golden jubilee farmans. Has the jamat got access to it. NO.
Look at the youths. Where I live in last ten years only one ismaili couple has got married. Rest of the youngsters have all got married outside the community.

Perhaps the LIF can give these figures to Mowlana Hazar Imam and give the reason that his guidance was not made available to the jamat by them.

Farmans are of considerable importance. They shouldnt be locked up in the Mukhi Kamadias briefcases and Tariqah Board cupboards.

In esoteric sense the only Copyright is the Murids heart. The Imam makes the Farmans and the heart of the Murid has the copyright to it.

I agree with you. If these institutions are blaming people who are publishing the Farmans, its because of their mistake. How much time has been passed since Golden Jubilee and how much time they need to publish book containing Farmans?

[star_munir]

by your logic, you and I also have the right to go to the Imam for any issue on which we do not agree with the leaders, and not accept his letter based on faked signature, we will need to see him in person to accept his wishes, do you see how absurd this logic is?

Dont assume my logic, instead read correctly what I have mentioned. Where did I write that you need to see Imam in person to accept his wishes?
What I told was we have Hazir Imam. Instead of excusing and blaming just wait what Hazir Imam says on this issue or what the court says about it.

[Admin]

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29771

According to the graphologist, in an email received on 4th of February [2 months before the lawsuit], the character of the person who forged Hazar Imam’s signature in a letter to Nagib Tajdin is detailed below.

Basically, the report received on 4rth of February indicated in advance that the forger will fight to death, he can not tolerate any critics or observations, he does not trust anyone, and he has grudge and aggressivity in him.

So all the signs were there that attempts will be made for the real issue to be diverted.

The next Heritage News report will disclose within a couple of days THE conversation that lead to this lawsuit and the threats. That one dated 17 February [yes long before the lawsuit] is extremely important because it explains the whole story behind this lawsuit purported to be from "The Aga Khan".

Other information just received: Ogilvy Renault, the law firm which launched the case has asked for an extension of 15 days to reply to the Defense. They claim delays due to breakdown of emails servers, blackberry communication, travel of senior lawyer, time difference with Paris etc...

The more delays in this file, the more damage it creates to the reputation of the Ismaili community, the Imam and the defendants. It is to the advantage of all parties that this case be pull out of the courts. Though chances are the defendants will not objects to the extension asked by Ogilvy Renault, delays are not to the advantage of any of the parties involved.

Many comments have been received here:

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740#comments