Ofcourse I am told that you are an "atheist" but atleast muslims believe that God is Just as Justice is one of HIS attributes of "Jamal" and the Intellect retains the potential to discern the Justice of God save for those who do not wish to....injustice is an attribute of imperfection but the human intellect perceives that God possesses all possible perfections and that HE is Exalted beyond any possibility both in regards to HIS own Essence and HIS actions.
God commands us to do good and forbids us to do evil....the quran upholds the principle that the Intellect is capable of discriminating between good and evil..." Shall WE treat those who have submitted (al-muslimun) as WE treat the guilty? what aileth you? How foolishly ye judge? (Sura al Qalam)
"Is the reward for goodness, other than goodness?" (Sura al Rahman)
God is too Exalted to be accountable to anyone - precisely because HE is wise and wisdom is inseparable from a good action ...conversely mankind is foolish - that is why we find wayfarers and atheists in our midst who used their own free will wrongly and now wish to unduly offload this as being a "predetermination"..how naive?
God never treats the believer in the same manner as the unbeliever or the good in the same way as bad - rather HE allows each person an appropriate fitting recompense and also "pre-destination" is not the least incpmpatible with human free will for what God has ordained for man is precisely Free will, the very feature that distinguishes him from an animal and yet he ends up becoming an animal and then prefers to blame God when it is all along man who made this choice !
Belief in Allah
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
sheza said :
im totally fine with your opinion because ITS YOU OPINION, yes you could say he wanted to have some fun because even HAPPINESS/SORROW is created by allah[swt]
, but the most important thing that he gave us is the free will !
in the same way he gave free will to all JINNS and LIVING THINGS , it is upon us to either choose good or bad
and regarding allah[swt] not knowing about iblis is you interpretation , again im fine with that....but as for me, allah[swt] purposely asked every angel to bow in front of h.adam[as] so as to see who follows his command and who doesnt and since angels are bound to follow allahs[swt] command they did except iblis[JINN]
had there been he would have made every single human being alike but he did not !!!
now will you call this coincidence ?
iam not asking you to believe be , its just my interpretation and it does not represent any ismaili or any other sect interpretation or thought
I dont know if you will agree with me but that sounds like either:
1. He wanted to have fun (after all he created satan aswell) to see who wins him or satan
2. How could he not already know...since he is all knowing and closer to us than our thoughts/souls as you said.
the reason for creation i think is one of those questions thats also answered by statements like: Allah knows best and our intellects are limited so talking about it is a waste of time...
im totally fine with your opinion because ITS YOU OPINION, yes you could say he wanted to have some fun because even HAPPINESS/SORROW is created by allah[swt]
, but the most important thing that he gave us is the free will ! in the same way he gave free will to all JINNS and LIVING THINGS , it is upon us to either choose good or bad
and regarding allah[swt] not knowing about iblis is you interpretation , again im fine with that....but as for me, allah[swt] purposely asked every angel to bow in front of h.adam[as] so as to see who follows his command and who doesnt and since angels are bound to follow allahs[swt] command they did except iblis[JINN]
had there been he would have made every single human being alike but he did not !!!
now will you call this coincidence ?
iam not asking you to believe be , its just my interpretation and it does not represent any ismaili or any other sect interpretation or thought
To know the proper application of ayah al Nur the following points should be kept in view:
(i) It is a parable.
(ii) A parable implies several applications corresponding to various aspects.
(iii) The light should be understood in its widest sense, as a self-evident being which is evident by itself, and through which other beings become evident.
(iv) The light emanating from a source may pass through transparent or opaque mediums. Generally it is not serviceable when it passes through an opaque medium but is profitable when it goes through a transparent medium.
Transparent mediums have different degrees of transparency. Better conductivity depends on the degree of refinement and purification of the medium.
There may be a source or cause which produces the light. It may also be self-illuminating .
(vii) Usually light proceeding from a source illuminates a particular area, leaving other areas unlighted.
(viii) The source of the light, in this verse, is not localised. It is neither of the east nor the west-not any particular area or direction.
(ix) The parable is applicable to the process of creation as well as to guidance and also to legislation in order to regulate human behaviour both as an individual and as a member of society.
(x) Light as a symbol of guidance is one of the attributes of Allah. It is manifested in both the realms of creation and legislation.
Allah is the light through which every created being comes into evidence, and every being is guided toward the destination where it should reach. To reach to the destination of salvation, bliss and satisfaction it has to do that which guidance points out.
In every realm and sphere there is a point in which the light of creation or guidance manifests itself originally, and then illuminates the surroundings. Niche {mishtat) refers to this "point" as the exalted holy place chosen for the manifestation of Allah's name and attributes.
There should be an entity whose cognitive self becomes the focus of light. Such entities have been pointed out clearly in Ahzab: 33 and Ali Imran: 61 as the first and the foremost in receiving the light of existence in the arc of descent and the-last in the arc of ascent.
In the realm of creation they are the best entities or "points" in which the light of creation manifested itself originally. In the realm of legislation and guidance too they are the best models.
If applied to any individual the niche is the power of expression and the "house" (in which the niche is situated) is the body....and the elevated houses referred to in the same Sura Nur belongs to them and so everyone simply cannot enter their houses as these are known as "Bayt Allah al-haram" and not so are not masjids as some seem to believe !
If applied to the group of the Ahl ul Bayt and the prophets, the niche in the house is the Holy Prophet and the Imam e Zamana.
The divine light passed through the purest transparent chain of prophets, without any detour, and manifested itself in its full glory in the Holy Prophet and his ITRAT, to illuminate the human society for ever.
All the mediums-lamp, glass etcetera-which are the various stages between the original source and the final spreading of the light should be of the highest transparency so as not to affect the purity of light passing through them.
It implies that the minds, hearts, loins and wombs of the ancestors of the Holy Prophet were free from the dirt of polytheism.
The house in which the niche always remained is described in verse 36.
There always exists a group of persons whose hearts and minds are fully occupied with the remembrance of Allah.
The niche is the source of light, and the oil of the blessed tree is a pure "light above light".
There is not a slightest trace of darkness.
Darkness or evil exists outside the sphere of the houses in which the niche is located and cannot enter into it.
Also refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 275; Nisa: 175 ; Ma-idah: 1 5 and Yunus: 87.
(i) It is a parable.
(ii) A parable implies several applications corresponding to various aspects.
(iii) The light should be understood in its widest sense, as a self-evident being which is evident by itself, and through which other beings become evident.
(iv) The light emanating from a source may pass through transparent or opaque mediums. Generally it is not serviceable when it passes through an opaque medium but is profitable when it goes through a transparent medium.
Transparent mediums have different degrees of transparency. Better conductivity depends on the degree of refinement and purification of the medium.
There may be a source or cause which produces the light. It may also be self-illuminating .
(vii) Usually light proceeding from a source illuminates a particular area, leaving other areas unlighted.
(viii) The source of the light, in this verse, is not localised. It is neither of the east nor the west-not any particular area or direction.
(ix) The parable is applicable to the process of creation as well as to guidance and also to legislation in order to regulate human behaviour both as an individual and as a member of society.
(x) Light as a symbol of guidance is one of the attributes of Allah. It is manifested in both the realms of creation and legislation.
Allah is the light through which every created being comes into evidence, and every being is guided toward the destination where it should reach. To reach to the destination of salvation, bliss and satisfaction it has to do that which guidance points out.
In every realm and sphere there is a point in which the light of creation or guidance manifests itself originally, and then illuminates the surroundings. Niche {mishtat) refers to this "point" as the exalted holy place chosen for the manifestation of Allah's name and attributes.
There should be an entity whose cognitive self becomes the focus of light. Such entities have been pointed out clearly in Ahzab: 33 and Ali Imran: 61 as the first and the foremost in receiving the light of existence in the arc of descent and the-last in the arc of ascent.
In the realm of creation they are the best entities or "points" in which the light of creation manifested itself originally. In the realm of legislation and guidance too they are the best models.
If applied to any individual the niche is the power of expression and the "house" (in which the niche is situated) is the body....and the elevated houses referred to in the same Sura Nur belongs to them and so everyone simply cannot enter their houses as these are known as "Bayt Allah al-haram" and not so are not masjids as some seem to believe !
If applied to the group of the Ahl ul Bayt and the prophets, the niche in the house is the Holy Prophet and the Imam e Zamana.
The divine light passed through the purest transparent chain of prophets, without any detour, and manifested itself in its full glory in the Holy Prophet and his ITRAT, to illuminate the human society for ever.
All the mediums-lamp, glass etcetera-which are the various stages between the original source and the final spreading of the light should be of the highest transparency so as not to affect the purity of light passing through them.
It implies that the minds, hearts, loins and wombs of the ancestors of the Holy Prophet were free from the dirt of polytheism.
The house in which the niche always remained is described in verse 36.
There always exists a group of persons whose hearts and minds are fully occupied with the remembrance of Allah.
The niche is the source of light, and the oil of the blessed tree is a pure "light above light".
There is not a slightest trace of darkness.
Darkness or evil exists outside the sphere of the houses in which the niche is located and cannot enter into it.
Also refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 275; Nisa: 175 ; Ma-idah: 1 5 and Yunus: 87.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
sister znanwalla
dont we all have noor of allah in us ?
the biggest gift was the gift to h.adam[as] where every angel bowed in front of him
the biggest gift was the gift for the ummah or progeny of h.adam[as] when allah sent prophets[saw] to every nation so as not even a single human being should be left uninformed or say on judgement day
" oh allah we never got any messenger who could guide us "
allah[swt] did this for he loved h.adam[as] and he taught him which no angel knew of !!!
taught by allah[swt] himself !!!!!!!!!!!!!
who are we sister ??? arent we all the descendants of prophet adam [as] ? dont we all have spirit of god in us ???
what is parable ??? i would say its just an EXAMPLE ! [which is correct]
so there are manyyyyyyyyyyyy examples to show noor of allah[swt], one of em is YOU
rest is upto you sister
salam
yaa ali madad
dont we all have noor of allah in us ?
the biggest gift was the gift to h.adam[as] where every angel bowed in front of him
the biggest gift was the gift for the ummah or progeny of h.adam[as] when allah sent prophets[saw] to every nation so as not even a single human being should be left uninformed or say on judgement day
" oh allah we never got any messenger who could guide us "
allah[swt] did this for he loved h.adam[as] and he taught him which no angel knew of !!!
taught by allah[swt] himself !!!!!!!!!!!!!
who are we sister ??? arent we all the descendants of prophet adam [as] ? dont we all have spirit of god in us ???
what is parable ??? i would say its just an EXAMPLE ! [which is correct]
so there are manyyyyyyyyyyyy examples to show noor of allah[swt], one of em is YOU
rest is upto you sister
salam
yaa ali madad
Sure we are ! I think I am being misunderstood ..
Among very famous traditions in which the "ahl al-bayt" have been resembled to the ark of salvation, reference can be made to the famous "Ishbah tradition" which has been narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) by Abu Hurayrah `Abdul-Rahman bin Sakhar (d 59 A.H.).
"When Almighty Allah created Adam, the father of mankind, and breathed His spirit into him, Adam looked to the right hand side of the empyrean.
There he saw five figures in the form of silhouettes engaged in prostration and genuflection.
He asked: "God, have you created any one from the dust before me?" God replied: "No."
Adam said, "So who are these five figures which I see resembling my own shape and form?"
God answered, "These are five of your offspring. If it were not for them, I would have not created you.
They are five people whose names are derived from My Own. If it were not for them, I would have not created paradise or hell, the heavens and the earth, the skies and the lands, the angels, the human beings and the jinn.
I am "Mahmud" and this is Muhammad. I am "Aala" and this is `Ali. I am "Fatir" and this is Fatimah, I am "Ihsan" and this is Hasan. I am "Muhsin" and this is Husayn.
By My Glory, whoever bears even an atom's weight of grudge against them will be cast into hell.
O Adam! They are My chosen ones. For them, I will save or cast others to perdition. If you want anything from me, you should resort to these five people."
Among very famous traditions in which the "ahl al-bayt" have been resembled to the ark of salvation, reference can be made to the famous "Ishbah tradition" which has been narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) by Abu Hurayrah `Abdul-Rahman bin Sakhar (d 59 A.H.).
"When Almighty Allah created Adam, the father of mankind, and breathed His spirit into him, Adam looked to the right hand side of the empyrean.
There he saw five figures in the form of silhouettes engaged in prostration and genuflection.
He asked: "God, have you created any one from the dust before me?" God replied: "No."
Adam said, "So who are these five figures which I see resembling my own shape and form?"
God answered, "These are five of your offspring. If it were not for them, I would have not created you.
They are five people whose names are derived from My Own. If it were not for them, I would have not created paradise or hell, the heavens and the earth, the skies and the lands, the angels, the human beings and the jinn.
I am "Mahmud" and this is Muhammad. I am "Aala" and this is `Ali. I am "Fatir" and this is Fatimah, I am "Ihsan" and this is Hasan. I am "Muhsin" and this is Husayn.
By My Glory, whoever bears even an atom's weight of grudge against them will be cast into hell.
O Adam! They are My chosen ones. For them, I will save or cast others to perdition. If you want anything from me, you should resort to these five people."
Mawlana Mustan sir billah in his Pir Pandiyat i Jawanmardi teaches US that..."...faith comes from and is perfected by the RECOGNITION and KNOWLEDGE of the IMAM of the TIME....therefore follow YOUR Imam and be happy and united with each other that you may become resurrected with the PIOUS, with PROPHETS and SAINTS in the presence of THE IMAM, with greatest Joy at meeting each other again..." ( and so will this not also include Hazrat Adam ?
The PIR says O ! brother the true perceptor is like a philosopher's stone and the followers are like copper....when copper comes in contact with the philosopher's stone, it becomes gold i.e. they gain spiritual enlightenment from the contact of their IMAM. He (the Imam) is Glorious, O ! brother !
So now what should I chase? the past which is intangible ? or the present which is relative and tangible?
The PIR says O ! brother the true perceptor is like a philosopher's stone and the followers are like copper....when copper comes in contact with the philosopher's stone, it becomes gold i.e. they gain spiritual enlightenment from the contact of their IMAM. He (the Imam) is Glorious, O ! brother !
So now what should I chase? the past which is intangible ? or the present which is relative and tangible?
Nur--light--knowledge
Imam SMS has said his Farmans are Nur. He has also said Ginans are Nur. The word "Ginan" translates into "Knowledge"
Nur = light correct?
Lets look at a worldy example
light reflects from things around us and enters our eyes. Our eyes are nothing but a sense organ that helps us percieve things.
A small flicker of light can show you where the obstacles lie.
Our Imams Farmans are Nur = light (knowledge)
It enters our intellect (the eye of intellect) and gets processed and only with the grace of Allah emerges Understanding.
A flicker of understanding is enough.
Our Imam has said " God is understanding " (My,How many ways can you interpret this one)
Now,
How in the world can anyone transmit understanding. The Imam is our best bet.
I have a couple of questions.
Who is it that percieves?
Who is it that understands?
.
Nur = light correct?
Lets look at a worldy example
light reflects from things around us and enters our eyes. Our eyes are nothing but a sense organ that helps us percieve things.
A small flicker of light can show you where the obstacles lie.
Our Imams Farmans are Nur = light (knowledge)
It enters our intellect (the eye of intellect) and gets processed and only with the grace of Allah emerges Understanding.
A flicker of understanding is enough.
Our Imam has said " God is understanding " (My,How many ways can you interpret this one)
Now,
How in the world can anyone transmit understanding. The Imam is our best bet.
I have a couple of questions.
Who is it that percieves?
Who is it that understands?
.
According to arabic lexicology this word is composed of five letters namely ALIF ; LAM ; LAM ; LAM and HAY !
If you consider ALIF by itself then it stands for ONE and if you remove ALIF then the remaining word pronounced LAHU means HIM and if you retain HAY pronounced HOO. it means one for whom is the Sovereignty !
And so it is HE who is worshipped ! and it means the Object of worship !
And yet one cannot estimate HIM fully ! and so HE is HE and yet HE is not HE for HE is beyond all attributes and stands alone and is Unique and beyond comprehension and man's understanding !
Now let me ask you a question brother...what was the very first thing God the Supreme and Exalted create?
If you consider ALIF by itself then it stands for ONE and if you remove ALIF then the remaining word pronounced LAHU means HIM and if you retain HAY pronounced HOO. it means one for whom is the Sovereignty !
And so it is HE who is worshipped ! and it means the Object of worship !
And yet one cannot estimate HIM fully ! and so HE is HE and yet HE is not HE for HE is beyond all attributes and stands alone and is Unique and beyond comprehension and man's understanding !
Now let me ask you a question brother...what was the very first thing God the Supreme and Exalted create?
O Brother: My Master is Ali is the Provider and Protector.
Come and meet the Holy Imam who is your only channel for salvation.
The True Holy Imam sees everybody but very few see the Holy Imam
in His essential nature (i.e., as the Soul of all souls and
as the Light of all lights).
The letter lâm symbolizes the servant, who is "separated" from God, and when his vowel is silenced (literally, "when his movement ceases"), then he is reunited with Him, and all that remains is God (Allâh).
Come and meet the Holy Imam who is your only channel for salvation.
The True Holy Imam sees everybody but very few see the Holy Imam
in His essential nature (i.e., as the Soul of all souls and
as the Light of all lights).
The letter lâm symbolizes the servant, who is "separated" from God, and when his vowel is silenced (literally, "when his movement ceases"), then he is reunited with Him, and all that remains is God (Allâh).
"The utmost purpose of the servant is that he praises his own (higher) Self which he beholds in the [Divine] Mirror, since there is not aptitude (ability) for the originated (i.e., the created being) to bear the Pre-Existent (i.e., Allah).
"God encompasses the unbelievers; the lightening dazzles their eyes; when it gives them light, they walk in it, and when the darkness is over them, they halt" (Q. 2:19).
"I take refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak ... from the evil of an envier when he envies" (Q.113:5); and "I take refuge in the Lord of mankind ... from the evil of the whisperer who whispers in the breasts of men, among Jinn and men" (Q. 114:5).
"God encompasses the unbelievers; the lightening dazzles their eyes; when it gives them light, they walk in it, and when the darkness is over them, they halt" (Q. 2:19).
"I take refuge in the Lord of the Daybreak ... from the evil of an envier when he envies" (Q.113:5); and "I take refuge in the Lord of mankind ... from the evil of the whisperer who whispers in the breasts of men, among Jinn and men" (Q. 114:5).
The word ALLAH is composed of four not give letters:
Alif, Lam, Lam, Ha
The letters which make the name "Allah" are created and therefore contingent. Therefore, the name "Allah", in reality, cannot truly refer to the Divine Essence or Godhead, but refers to originated and created entities.
According to Sayyedna Nasir-i Khusraw as per Wajh-i Din:
The Alif stands for the Universal Intellect ('aql al-kull)
The first Lam stands for the Universal Soul (nafs al-kull)
The second Lam stands for the Natiq (prophet).
The Ha stands for the Asas (imam).
Alif, Lam, Lam, Ha
The letters which make the name "Allah" are created and therefore contingent. Therefore, the name "Allah", in reality, cannot truly refer to the Divine Essence or Godhead, but refers to originated and created entities.
According to Sayyedna Nasir-i Khusraw as per Wajh-i Din:
The Alif stands for the Universal Intellect ('aql al-kull)
The first Lam stands for the Universal Soul (nafs al-kull)
The second Lam stands for the Natiq (prophet).
The Ha stands for the Asas (imam).
"..The letters which make the name "Allah" are created and therefore contingent. Therefore, the name "Allah", in reality, cannot truly refer to the Divine Essence or Godhead, but refers to originated and created entities...."
And so what then is the real Tawhid? and assuming "Allah" (name) encompasses the attributes and if one calls the Supreme God Allah, and then does not negate it, then what is the end impact, in your view?
do please explain in a couple of paras...
And so what then is the real Tawhid? and assuming "Allah" (name) encompasses the attributes and if one calls the Supreme God Allah, and then does not negate it, then what is the end impact, in your view?
do please explain in a couple of paras...
The true nature of tawhid is to recognize that the Divine Essence or Godhead transcends all names, attributes and descriptions. God is beyond being and is above both existence and non-existence. These principles have been elucidated by Isma'ili philosophers in the past.
The first originated being which is Pure Being and worthy of descriptive names and attributes is, in reality, the First Intellect or the Universal Intellect. This entity is called the Light (nur) of Imamat. The Divine Name, "Allah", actually refers to the First Intellect and not the transcendent Divine Essence.
This is a point in which Sunni Sufi (i.e. Ibn al-Arabi), Twelver (i.e. Mulla Sadra), and Isma'ili (i.e. Hamid al-Din Kirmani) theosophers all agree on.
The first originated being which is Pure Being and worthy of descriptive names and attributes is, in reality, the First Intellect or the Universal Intellect. This entity is called the Light (nur) of Imamat. The Divine Name, "Allah", actually refers to the First Intellect and not the transcendent Divine Essence.
This is a point in which Sunni Sufi (i.e. Ibn al-Arabi), Twelver (i.e. Mulla Sadra), and Isma'ili (i.e. Hamid al-Din Kirmani) theosophers all agree on.
Thank you Sir ! much obliged !
Imam Ali says.." perfect sincerity in TAWHID is that WE negate ALL attributes from HIM for every attribute to it being other than the OBJECT to which it is attributed and every such object in turn testifies to it being other than the attribute"....and I also believe that if there is no negation then there is restriction of the Exalted to what HE is but as HE is also much more than what has ben attributed the failure to negate breaches Tawhid and is conversely Shirk !...please let me know if you agree...
Imam Ali says.." perfect sincerity in TAWHID is that WE negate ALL attributes from HIM for every attribute to it being other than the OBJECT to which it is attributed and every such object in turn testifies to it being other than the attribute"....and I also believe that if there is no negation then there is restriction of the Exalted to what HE is but as HE is also much more than what has ben attributed the failure to negate breaches Tawhid and is conversely Shirk !...please let me know if you agree...
First of all, ‘Allah’ does not refer to a ‘originated and created [entity]’ simply because the letters of the word happen to be created. If that were the case, then al-Dhat must also be created, and therefore contingent, since its letters are created as well. Rather, the reason has to do with a distinction in Divinis as regards metaphysical principles and not semantics/origins of letters. Secondly, you only state half the truth; ‘Allah’ not only has a created aspect but also an uncreated one. It is therefore both created and uncreated.The letters which make the name "Allah" are created and therefore contingent. Therefore, the name "Allah", in reality, cannot truly refer to the Divine Essence or Godhead, but refers to originated and created entities.
Allah is both originated and not originated. It has created and uncreated aspects. This is the view of Sunni/Sufi and Twelver/’Irfani gnostics.The first originated being which is Pure Being and worthy of descriptive names and attributes is, in reality, the First Intellect or the Universal Intellect.
Binom,
It is possible that many Sufi and Sh'ia scholars would disagree with your view or Mr Khandani's...I believe that there is no consensus amongst the arab scholars as to the origin and the root of the word "Ilah"...according to some this word is derived from "wilah" or "walah" and which can have different meanings...I suggest that you read henry Corbin's book, "Alone with the Alone...it will be agood start for now...
It is possible that many Sufi and Sh'ia scholars would disagree with your view or Mr Khandani's...I believe that there is no consensus amongst the arab scholars as to the origin and the root of the word "Ilah"...according to some this word is derived from "wilah" or "walah" and which can have different meanings...I suggest that you read henry Corbin's book, "Alone with the Alone...it will be agood start for now...
Binom,
the Divine ESsence / Godhead is ultimately exalted above all names. He is nameless.
The point about the letters of Allah being contingent and therefore the name Allah referring to a contingent entity is still a valid argument in articulating the transcendence of the Divine Principle above names.
Otherwise, I agree with you about the distinction in divinis - with regards to the Absolute and the "Relative Absolute".
the Divine ESsence / Godhead is ultimately exalted above all names. He is nameless.
The point about the letters of Allah being contingent and therefore the name Allah referring to a contingent entity is still a valid argument in articulating the transcendence of the Divine Principle above names.
Otherwise, I agree with you about the distinction in divinis - with regards to the Absolute and the "Relative Absolute".
Binom
It must also be noted that Shi'a Isma'ili theosophers articulated the transcendence and Beyond-Being aspect of the Divine Principle long before it was elucidated by Sunni/Sufi and Twelver/Irfani scholars.
Even S.H. Nasr acknowledges this in Anthology of Philosophy of Persia Vol II where he writes that Ismaili theosophers must be considered as the predecessors of schools such as Mulla Sadr and other Twelver/Irfani schools.
It must also be noted that Shi'a Isma'ili theosophers articulated the transcendence and Beyond-Being aspect of the Divine Principle long before it was elucidated by Sunni/Sufi and Twelver/Irfani scholars.
Even S.H. Nasr acknowledges this in Anthology of Philosophy of Persia Vol II where he writes that Ismaili theosophers must be considered as the predecessors of schools such as Mulla Sadr and other Twelver/Irfani schools.
"...the Divine ESsence / Godhead is ultimately exalted above all names. He is nameless...."
The Divine Essence / Godhead is ultimately exalted and above all names. He is nameless
The question is why is HE "nameless" so to speak ? I believe it is because the name encompasses the Attributes - let us assume all the 99 attributes and so HE is all this and much more i.e. the Supreme God whom you refer to as the Divine Essence....and so if HE the Supreme God is much more and beyond all these attributes and so unless all this is properly acknowledged first and then there exists an effective "negation" as necessary, there would be partnering of say 99 different attributes or things with the Supreme God and this would be Shirk, in my view and a breach of Real Tawhid as one cannot partner anything with God !.....that is why I have said that one cannot have an "unmediated" relationship directly with God Himself as HE stands alone ! HE is Unique ! HE is beyond all imagination and comprehension or understanding or attributes....that is why, if there is anyone who maintains perfect Tawhid today then I hold this view that it is the Ismailis (Nizaris) and many are unable to actually understand their own positioning, to begin with ...
The Supreme God does not beget - nor was He begotten but HE perpetually creates and Manifests Himself...
He is a Treasure that can only be discovered through the protocol that HE - the Exalted has established Himself....and this then would also explain the WE/US/OURS expression in the quran....it would also explain the prayer HE has commanded upon us to say daily in Sura Fatiha i.e. "Guide us to the Right Path....the path of THOSE upon whom HE - the Supreme GOD has bestowed Favours...NOT of those cursed ONES - NOR of those who have gone astray...."
The Intelligible and the sensible entities God the Supreme has given mankind as a Favour and whose path one needs to follow relentlessly...instead of following the hypocrites
I have no problem with Mr Khandani's explanation so far as he is moving towards the same ethic as far as I believe....I think Binom needs to do a bit of more research on this subject....
The Divine Essence / Godhead is ultimately exalted and above all names. He is nameless
The question is why is HE "nameless" so to speak ? I believe it is because the name encompasses the Attributes - let us assume all the 99 attributes and so HE is all this and much more i.e. the Supreme God whom you refer to as the Divine Essence....and so if HE the Supreme God is much more and beyond all these attributes and so unless all this is properly acknowledged first and then there exists an effective "negation" as necessary, there would be partnering of say 99 different attributes or things with the Supreme God and this would be Shirk, in my view and a breach of Real Tawhid as one cannot partner anything with God !.....that is why I have said that one cannot have an "unmediated" relationship directly with God Himself as HE stands alone ! HE is Unique ! HE is beyond all imagination and comprehension or understanding or attributes....that is why, if there is anyone who maintains perfect Tawhid today then I hold this view that it is the Ismailis (Nizaris) and many are unable to actually understand their own positioning, to begin with ...
The Supreme God does not beget - nor was He begotten but HE perpetually creates and Manifests Himself...
He is a Treasure that can only be discovered through the protocol that HE - the Exalted has established Himself....and this then would also explain the WE/US/OURS expression in the quran....it would also explain the prayer HE has commanded upon us to say daily in Sura Fatiha i.e. "Guide us to the Right Path....the path of THOSE upon whom HE - the Supreme GOD has bestowed Favours...NOT of those cursed ONES - NOR of those who have gone astray...."
The Intelligible and the sensible entities God the Supreme has given mankind as a Favour and whose path one needs to follow relentlessly...instead of following the hypocrites
I have no problem with Mr Khandani's explanation so far as he is moving towards the same ethic as far as I believe....I think Binom needs to do a bit of more research on this subject....
And the Neoplatonic and Hindu sages articulated it long before 'Ismaili theosophers'. What's your point? You come off as if implying that non-Ismaili Muslims took this idea from the Ismailis or something, as if an Ibn 'Arabi was influenced by the batini doctrines of the Ismailis (whom, by the way, he called the 'most ignorant of men' in the field of subtle truths). Moreover, the way this idea is formulated and elucidated in the Sunni and Twelver Shi'i thinkers differs significantly from the way it is expressed in the writings of the Ismailis so that it's not even the same...It must also be noted that Shi'a Isma'ili theosophers articulated the transcendence and Beyond-Being aspect of the Divine Principle long before it was elucidated by Sunni/Sufi and Twelver/Irfani scholars.
What he acknowledges is that they [Ismailis] are their predecessors "... from the point of view of the exposition of the philosophical dimension of the esoteric teachings of the Imams." (p. 15). Nothing more.Even S.H. Nasr acknowledges this in Anthology of Philosophy of Persia Vol II where he writes that Ismaili theosophers must be considered as the predecessors of schools such as Mulla Sadr and other Twelver/Irfani schools.
Free will....?
Several people mentioned free will, would love to heard your thoughts on the argument from free will?
Reason
Hello Sheza
I understand the frustration you are seeing. One can not use the object as the proof (for ex. happiness means happy) -- that falls under the mathematical concept of a tautology and therefore irrelevant, as you quite rightly point out, to answering your question.
Reason alone must suffice to arrive at the Truth, which will point you to the Qur'an and thereafter Ismailism but you do not need the Qur'an or the Ginans to arrive the Truth in the first place -- although it can, and will, help your reasoning. Send me a message if you want to discuss further.
Regards, and YAM
Seif
I understand the frustration you are seeing. One can not use the object as the proof (for ex. happiness means happy) -- that falls under the mathematical concept of a tautology and therefore irrelevant, as you quite rightly point out, to answering your question.
Reason alone must suffice to arrive at the Truth, which will point you to the Qur'an and thereafter Ismailism but you do not need the Qur'an or the Ginans to arrive the Truth in the first place -- although it can, and will, help your reasoning. Send me a message if you want to discuss further.
Regards, and YAM
Seif
-
DilawarMomin
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:52 am
Sheza,
I read all the comments and every efforts to convince you about the existence of Metaphysical Entity. As you rightly mentioned, mostly all arguments are circular logic and tautological, based on Divine scriptures, devotional literature and other rhetoric materials which you do not believe in and there for all arguments or proofs that are presented are meaningless and useless.
You call yourself agnostic not atheist. Let us get some clarity about this first.
Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories, few are as follows.
Strong Agnosticism: The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."
Weak Agnosticism: The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore o­ne will withhold judgment until if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I do not know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence, one can find something out."
Apathetic Agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.
Agnostic Atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.
Agnostic Theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
I do not know where you fit yourself.
I am an agnostic too but I put myself in the catagory of Agnostic Theism with the influence of Apathetic Agnosticism.
Basically I am a humancentic person rather than theocentric and there for a Humanist. So I am an Agnostic Humanist ISMAILI, a proud Ismaili.
After this brief introduction of mine let us move further.
I am not here to convince you about the existence of Divine but to reconcile your situation in a pragmatic way.
I am not a ritualistic person but I go to Jamatkhana. For me internalization is the main purpose of rites and rituals. When formalized ritual and behavior are progressively internalized, desires are channeled and it results in personal cultivation which culminates into social correctness. Participating in ritual with sincerity and consciousness makes the ritual most powerful way to cultivate oneself which leads to good, ethical society.
And God, the Beyond Being is beyond this process of internalization. God is beyond existence and nonexistence, He is beyond agnosticism and anthropomorphism. (Read Shish Fasl by Nasir Khusru). Al Sijistani presented the concept of Double Negation, that is God as "not not Being". Whatever concept you have in your mind about God as a transcendent being, is still a concept existing in your mind and He is beyond that concept which exist in your mind and that results into another concept in your mind which He is not and so on infinitum.(This is the reason why we Ismailis are called as "Ahl E Tatil"-Those Who Negate- in history)This purest form of Monotheism presented by Ismaili scholars rendered God as if He has nothing to do with cosmogony and eschatology. This resulted in all questions about His Being, cosmogony and eschatology meaningless, tranforming myself in to Agnostic. It left me with my self, my present, other beings and nature. And for this very reason I am not a theocentric person but rather anthropocentric(humancentric-humanist) and further more(naturalist -which is beyond the scop of discussion over here).
There for every thing surrounding me is real, humans are real, their suffering is real, their happiness is real.Of cource this attitude does not make my life meaningless. Hope for life beyond this life changed to hope for future for mankind. My actions and deeds to be performed in anticipation of rewards in after life changed to my contribution and responsibility to mankinds peaceful future. The base for my ethical principles changed from Divine source to humans needs and their future. My whole emphasis changed from Divine to human. I realised the wisdom of Confucian: "People is the zhu (master) of gods. So, to sage kings, people first, gods second"
Future of Human race depends on us. Our actions, attitude, behavior, thinkiing will shape the future. The exclusivism of faithfuls, separatist behavior, supremacist thinking and fanatic attitude will destroy our existence.
This is where and how I found my comfort level for my belief system. And hope and peace for my future. I know there are many more questions and this will also create more questions. But you have to find answers from these and many more question which you will come across in future. Hope by doing this excercise you will find your own comfort level, peace and hope.
I read all the comments and every efforts to convince you about the existence of Metaphysical Entity. As you rightly mentioned, mostly all arguments are circular logic and tautological, based on Divine scriptures, devotional literature and other rhetoric materials which you do not believe in and there for all arguments or proofs that are presented are meaningless and useless.
You call yourself agnostic not atheist. Let us get some clarity about this first.
Agnosticism can be subdivided into several categories, few are as follows.
Strong Agnosticism: The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."
Weak Agnosticism: The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore o­ne will withhold judgment until if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I do not know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is evidence, one can find something out."
Apathetic Agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.
Agnostic Atheism: Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.
Agnostic Theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
I do not know where you fit yourself.
I am an agnostic too but I put myself in the catagory of Agnostic Theism with the influence of Apathetic Agnosticism.
Basically I am a humancentic person rather than theocentric and there for a Humanist. So I am an Agnostic Humanist ISMAILI, a proud Ismaili.
After this brief introduction of mine let us move further.
I am not here to convince you about the existence of Divine but to reconcile your situation in a pragmatic way.
I am not a ritualistic person but I go to Jamatkhana. For me internalization is the main purpose of rites and rituals. When formalized ritual and behavior are progressively internalized, desires are channeled and it results in personal cultivation which culminates into social correctness. Participating in ritual with sincerity and consciousness makes the ritual most powerful way to cultivate oneself which leads to good, ethical society.
And God, the Beyond Being is beyond this process of internalization. God is beyond existence and nonexistence, He is beyond agnosticism and anthropomorphism. (Read Shish Fasl by Nasir Khusru). Al Sijistani presented the concept of Double Negation, that is God as "not not Being". Whatever concept you have in your mind about God as a transcendent being, is still a concept existing in your mind and He is beyond that concept which exist in your mind and that results into another concept in your mind which He is not and so on infinitum.(This is the reason why we Ismailis are called as "Ahl E Tatil"-Those Who Negate- in history)This purest form of Monotheism presented by Ismaili scholars rendered God as if He has nothing to do with cosmogony and eschatology. This resulted in all questions about His Being, cosmogony and eschatology meaningless, tranforming myself in to Agnostic. It left me with my self, my present, other beings and nature. And for this very reason I am not a theocentric person but rather anthropocentric(humancentric-humanist) and further more(naturalist -which is beyond the scop of discussion over here).
There for every thing surrounding me is real, humans are real, their suffering is real, their happiness is real.Of cource this attitude does not make my life meaningless. Hope for life beyond this life changed to hope for future for mankind. My actions and deeds to be performed in anticipation of rewards in after life changed to my contribution and responsibility to mankinds peaceful future. The base for my ethical principles changed from Divine source to humans needs and their future. My whole emphasis changed from Divine to human. I realised the wisdom of Confucian: "People is the zhu (master) of gods. So, to sage kings, people first, gods second"
Future of Human race depends on us. Our actions, attitude, behavior, thinkiing will shape the future. The exclusivism of faithfuls, separatist behavior, supremacist thinking and fanatic attitude will destroy our existence.
This is where and how I found my comfort level for my belief system. And hope and peace for my future. I know there are many more questions and this will also create more questions. But you have to find answers from these and many more question which you will come across in future. Hope by doing this excercise you will find your own comfort level, peace and hope.