shiraz.virani wrote:So how far apart are these taps and the basin? I thought that muslims are to wash their feet upto their ankles for wadoo purposes. Whats the purpose of washing upto their knees?
muslims do that for a simple fact that its mentioned in quran ! its like saying why salah ? why fast ?
plus they dont wash upto their knees brother ....i mean you can if you want[thats what i said in my earlier posts] to but according to quran its only upto ankles. [surah 5:6]
Shiraz,
The problem I am having is getting you to focus on what questions I am raising. You blabber too much and then when shown you refuse to accept your blabbering. I only asked you the reason for mentioning "washing upto the knees" when talking about wadoo. You didn't get my point as always. I asked you specifically if the taps and the basin are away from each other and I am sure they are. If the tap is provided, all muslims do their complete wadoo under the tap - they don't go looking for some basin or sink to wash their upper body parts like arms and face and head. That is why I said you blabber without thinking.
Shiraz,
You may very well be an ismaili, may be an ex-ismaili, but the question is why some including me think that you are not in the fold anymore. Ever wondered yourself? I'll give you a hint. Take a break from this website and go read all your posts on this thread. Go as far back as you possibly can and see how many contradictory posts or statements you have made.
I dont care to list them here but I have pointed them out to you every now and then, if you paid attention.
shiraz.virani wrote:for the very simple reason brother.....you believe in imamat and i believe in both imamat and itrat....thats the big difference
you wont find any contradiction unless you read it with an open mind , ie keeping both quran and imamat in mind.
infact you can see that i even gave references from ginan !
You believe in Imamat and Itrat? Did you forget something? This is what I call blabbering too much. Also could you define Itrat for me? Besides, that is not the reason why I feel you are an ex-ismaili, actually your views about Imamat, Dasond, etc. makes me feel that way. You have called our Imam "bolta quran" in a sarcastic way right here on this website when you said he only mentions same few ayats of the Quran implying that he knows not much about Quran. I read everything of interest with an open mind and twice and thrice before responding. Everyone who follows this thread will agree that you have not only contradicted yourself but also have shown ignorance about Islam and possessing second-hand knowledge about Islam from some websites. You paste articles from Internet and give it your name. I wonder if you ever completely read those articles before passing them on as your work?
As much love and devotion you showed towards the Imam in one breadth and in the next you have stripped him of every God given privilege giving the impression that your intent is not what you are preaching. Dasond is a fundamental in Ismaili tariqa just like Zakah is to you yet you have argued that dasond is only on left overs and even then only 2.5%. The 2.5% is pir's share. What happened to the 10% for the Imam? You mentioned in your previous post that you were on some kind of a board in India, may be tariqa board - then how come you faltered on a fundamental belief of dasond?
shiraz.virani wrote:again you misquoted me brother !
i asked you why should we pay dasond after govt taxes ?? for which i never got answer !
and what i told is that i pay 12.5% after deducting my expenses ! where are you pay before !
May be I am mistaken about you paying 2.5%. I apologize for that. But I do remember you always emphasized 2.5% as opposed to 12.5%.
Why we pay dasond after taxes? I have already explained to you why we pay dasond that way. Please go back a few pages and read it for yourself. You probably didn't care to read but I will explain again. You pay your dasond on the money you receive in your hands. At the end of the year when you file your taxes and if you have overpaid you receive that portion back and then you pay the dasond on the refund you get from the government. Ismailis do not pay dasond on left overs. Dasond is Zakah and not some sadaqa. You pay Allah's share first before you do anything with it.
Could you enlighten me on the reason Zakah was made obligatory in the Quran. I mean what is the significance of Zakah?
There is a famous story about Moses inviting Allah to come and eat with him. Do you remember? Its in the ginan! When Allah came in disguise as a beggar right around the time Moses was expecting Allah, he told his maid to give him the left overs from the previous meal they had and send the beggar on his way before Allah shows up. Do you remember what the pir says next? Allah refused to eat when he came back without disguise but did bring the beggar's staff and bowl. He said to Moses that He did come at the appointed time but you (Moses) fed Him
leftover food "Makrooh khana ham ko bhaitia, Laali[maid] kay hath dilwaya" these are the words in the ginan. So how can you pay zakah (dasond) on left over money after you have fulfilled all your dreams and wishes. This actually defeats the very purpose of Zakah.
Do you believe all Imam's are one and the same? They all carry the same noor. If you said yes then my question to you is ; What did Imam Ali said in the battle of Siffin? Did he not say he was the speaking Quran? So how can someone be a "bolta Quran" if he does not have that imbedded onto his heart? You have argued that the Imam-e-Zaman does not have the Quran in him. These are just the two questions I have raised. I have a list 3 pages long for all your falterings.
shiraz.virani wrote:I believe all imams are one and the same, i.e their duty is to interpret quran ! ..imam[as] is a teacher/guide ....and the job of a teacher is to teach and thats what our imam does !
you said imam ali[as] said hez a bolta quran....but when i asked you that if there is a bolta quran then whats the purpose of silent quran ....and that i think you skipped intentionally brother
i dont think imam[as] = bolta quran.....imam[as] is the interpretor of quran.
How can you even think like that being an Ismaili? An Ismaili with the knowledge and background with some religious board in India at that? You did not deny that Hazrat Ali said that he is the bolta quran and you also said the all Imams are the same so based on that am I correct in saying that Hazar Imam is bolta quran as well? How is he to interpret the Quran if he does not have it in him. If he has the noor of Allah then what else is left that he does not have in him? You expect rather believe that Imam reads some Quran in a book form and then interpretes the verses. Are you not contradicting yourself? If Imam does the interpretation that requires a quran in a book form then what is the difference between him and all your other scholars who interpret quran the same way? Why do we need the Imam then? So what happened to your belief that you follow Imam? And how do you follow Imam if you do not consider him to be one of the "raasikoona fil ilm". Stop blabbering too much, please!
On the one hand you speak about pluralism pointing fingers at others saying if "this is pluralism that our Imam speaks of" and then on the other hand you are doing exactly what you are charging others of doing that is unpluralistic attitudes. My brother, where is your wisdom? What is your intent? Where are you going with all your arguments? Although we are discussing the mess made by the scribes of the Noble Quran, you keep forgetting that everyone has a right to have their own opinions. We can all have differing views and still be brothers and sisters at the end of the day, like you once said. What happened to that? You started calling names to Zina Khan calling her "inappropriate sex". My brother, this does not suit someone with your knowledge, if you have any of your own. Do you know what Zina means and what are the origins of this name? Google it and find out. I do not want to put you to shame here on this board.
shiraz.virani wrote:pluralism is promoted when one is willing to listen brother ! if a person doesnt listen to what somebody is saying then you have to act like them , well i want you to goole zina and find out for yourself brother ...i know i shouldnt have done that but you seem more passionate towards her name instead of being passionate about quran !
You do follow the Imam of the Ismailis, correct? This is what the Imam has very recently said and in my words he says; explain your beliefs to those who question your beliefs; if they don't understand, explain it again and if they still don't understand then leave them in their state.
Pluralism is co-existing not acting like someone who you think is going overboard. Imam said if they dont want to listen then leave them, not act like them.
I did google the name Zina and that is why I said what I said in my previous post. I do my homework before I open my mouth, unlike you. Zina has many different meanings according to country, culture, sect, ethnicity etc. One of them gave the name a jewish origin which meant "brilliant" and here is the link to that website
http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/findresu ... ?name=ZINA
In the language of your choice and preference and interest it means "illegitimate sex" which you got stuck upon. Don't you have any shame? Don't you have sisters, daughters, mother, wife, etc.? How would you feel if I was to find a derogatory meaning of the name of your own sister or wife? What if our Imam comes across this website and reads the junk you have posted, especially calling a sister in religion as illegitimate sex. He is internet saavy, if you didn't know. He also text messeges with both thumbs at lightning fast speed, in case you didn't know that either. The name has several meanings like I said earlier. Accepting them all is pluralism.
shiraz.virani wrote:not once or twice i told znanwalla many times not to abuse quran but she did.....if you wanna clean the sewer[where she lives] you have to get in it brother.
What I see from your dialog with Znanwalla is that she is questioning the work of your scribes who are so dear to you that compared to them you Imam is nothing. Yes yes I know you didn't say that exactly but your posts speak louder than you. Nobody would ever dare question the holy verses of the Quran. I have tried to tell this to you so many times but you have been ignorant of them. IT IS NOT THE QURAN (ALLAH'S KALAM) THAT WE QUESTION, IT IS HOW IT WAS COLLECTED AND BY WHOM THAT WE ARE QUESTIONING. Can you prove to me that the chronological order of the Quran is the same as the Prophet had. I know you will come back with the verse where Allah has guaranteed to protect His Book. We never said the book is not protected. The book that your scribes put together is not the perfect work. We do believe that the Bible and the Torah have lost credibility because it is in the Quran. Could Allah not protect His message in those times? Then why didn't he interfere? Remember you boast so much about FREE WILL? Even in our times the Quran is desecrated by non muslims, burnt, disrespected and God knows what else, then why is Allah allowing it to happen? He has allowed free will and everyone will have to account for their actions in the hereafter. Its not the book that is holy, its the verses that are holy and therefore the book receives respect. In the Quran Allah says that if He willed He could remove the letters from the book making them disappear. What would be the value of that book then? Would you still consider it holy? The 48th Imam has said something about how Hz Uthman revised the book. Do you not remember, Mr. board member? Or are you saying he was wrong?
These are just a few incidences that I have observed. Deep in your heart you know well who you are and what your intentions are, which sadly I still question.
shiraz.virani wrote:my intention is to defend the very same quran from which we recite dua/namaz and ziyarat brother....if you question my intention then its like questioning your own faith !
Allah does not need people like you and me to defend his religion or His Book. What you are defending is your ego. You are not Allah or my Imam or a Pir that if I question your intentions then I lose my faith. You don't know nothing about my faith so please dont go there. My faith is between me and my Creator. Only He needs to know where I am going with my beliefs. My faith is not based on your intentions, so please.....
Ismaili dua/namaz and ziyarat is from the Quran that Allah revealed to Mohammad and gave it to the Imams as inheritance (its in the Quran). The verses are the same, translations are so many and interpretaions are countless and that is the reason the muslims are divided today. If the Imam has the right to interpret the Quran, as per you, then he has the right to pick whichever ayat he wants. The ones he picked obviously would match what is in Uthman's text, there is no corruption in the holy verses, just that some are missing according to some muslims, others are misplaced in various places, the actual chronological order is gone thereby creating confusion and opening up doors for a flood of individual interpretations.
Do you think the Imam has the right to interpret Quran just for Ismailis? or he has the right to absolute interpretation (for all)?
