"...Can you explain the 'batini' meaning of Qiamat? How is our belief arround this subject? Where our soul would go from here, after death? Does Qiamat arrive for the entire world? or for each individual?..."
The question I ask you whether there exists a common belief? let me know.
There comes a stage of evolution in the life of man when he feels more satisfied by seeing another person satisfied with food than by his having eaten it himself, when he feels comfortable in seeing another person comfortable, when he feels richly adorned by seeing another person clothed nicely; for this stage is a stepping-stone to the realization of God.
Human beings living in their shells are mostly unaware of the privilege of life and so are unthankful to the Giver of it.
In order to see the grace of God man must open his eyes and raise his head from his little world.
He will see -- above and below, to the right and the left, before and behind -- the grace of God reaching him from everywhere in abundance.
A person who is loved by everybody in the world, and yet if he has not loved anybody, he has done nothing.
A person who has possessed the wealth of the whole world, but if he has given nothing, he has not earned.
So the what has he not earned? and how will this have an adverse impact?
"sacho samar lejo saath - O ! jire walla..."
So why don't you give some highlights to us too...."joog mahe lejo ganero lab"...'agar sami rajo lekha maangshe.."
I am in paradise so to speak....haven't seen "qiyamat" - have you? so then how does one describe it other than to say it could be the state of our own minds....some say the happiness one enjoys here is paradise....and the trials and tribulations is hell...so what is your take on this?
Ali Allah
EVOLUTION
"Lakh Chorasi" mentioned in our Ginans is nothing else but the theory of evolution.
If you read "Moman Chitwaini" by our Holy Pir Sadruddin, you will get the full explanation about evolution and the process of creation.
This book contains 630 stanzas but the language is difficult.
It requires an expert to understand it. Some knowledge of Sanskrit and Prakrit is absolutely necessary.
Lakh Chorasi means 8,400,000 stages or forms of life on earth.
It means a form of a species.
For example, there are more than 3,000 species of snakes known today. But many more species might have been living in the past, and are now extinct.
It has taken 4,313,000 years of evolution from the amoeba to man of today. Some details:
It took the amoeba 432,000 years to evolve into a fish.
It took the fish 432,000 years to evolve into a tortoise.
It took the tortoise 432,000 years to evolve to a mammal like water hog.
It took the water hog 432,000 years to evolve to a higher form of mammal like a lion.
It took the lion 432,000 years to evolve to an ape such as a chimpanzee or sometimes known as the missing link.
It took that ape 432,000 years to evolve to the first man with intelligence. He was actually the ADAM known as ABUL BASHR.
After another 432,000 years' period of development, the civilized man appeared during the period of the first RAMA (there are hundreds of kings known as Rama) who lived about 864,000 years ago.
Modern man and his immediate ancestors have been living on earth for the past 7,000 years during which the Biblical Prophets have appeared.. The Great Flood perhaps came in this period.
Between the two major stages of evolution such as amoeba and fish, there were thousands of developing and evolving stages which produced hundred of thousands of species. Most of them are now extinct.
DAS AWTAAR
Our theory of Das Awtaar is not Hindu mythology though it is found in Hindu Scriptures.
It is in fact the explanation of the process of evolution in a simple manner, and understanding its relation to the Divine Guidance.
The Sanskrit word "awtaar" is generally misunderstood by most of us.
It means to descend or descended; to change shape; the span of life; preface; one after another etc.
So you see it does not mean God.
It means descended, the Arabic equivalent of which is "naazil" or "munazzil".
These words have been extensively used in the Holy Quran where Allah mentions His Noor or His message.
Our Holy Imam Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah once explained the existence of the MACHHA-AWTAAR in these words:
"When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above."(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)
KHAAN
In Sanskrit, Khaan means store or evolution. The Holy Pir has also mentioned that there were four divisions of the process of evolution.
These are: Shitage Khaan, Jadage Khaan, Indage Khaan, and Udrbhud Khaan:
Shitage (or Sitej): Growth by fission; multiplication of living cells, ameba, germ, bacteria, etc. In other words, creation from the earth, for example metal, minerals, mountains.
Jadage (or Jjrej): Growth from seed or twig such as trees, plants, vegetation. In other words, creation on the earth for example trees, plants.
Indage (or Indej): Growth from an egg such as birds, reptiles, fish, etc.
Udr-Bhud (or Udhboj): Growth in a womb such as animals and human beings.
SOUL
The human soul has crossed the vast ocean of Lakh Chorasi and now appears in human stage.
There is enough evidence that the soul is developing and progressing all the time.
Everything that Nature has produced is progressing. If there is any deterioration or destruction, it is for reproduction in a better form.
Normally a soul will not turn back to an animal stage; but, of course, in some exceptional cases a soul may be retarded or degraded to lower stages as a punishment and for improvement. Otherwise it is created and is meant for development. It may make progress during its human life on earth as well as in the Hereafter.
A human being is given several chances in his lifetime to improve and develop. He is also given many lives to make progress enough to reach nearer and nearer to his Creator.
EVOLUTION IN GINANS
According to our Holy Ginans, the Wonderful Tradition, life started on earth thousands of million years ago.
It was destroyed after a certain evolution for many millions of years. After the elapse of some millenniums, life reappeared on earth.
There were many such cycles of life and destruction.
The present cycle of life on earth started about 3,985,000 years ago.
According to Hazrat Pir Sadruddin (1300-1415 A.D.), life on earth started with the amoeba.
It evolved and divided into 1870 million species (varieties) of life in water, in the air, and on the ground.
In the beginning, the earth was not so far away from the sun. Life started first in the north, perhaps in the arctic region because this was the first part of the earth to cool down.
As the north became unbearably cold, the creatures moved down toward the tropical zone.
One-third of the species became extinct in the process of evolution.
In the beginning of the second Yug Treta, man evolved from ape.
This phenomenon occurred about 2.2 million years ago.
Scientists are gradually discovering now what Hazrat Pir Sadruddin had told us six hundred years ago.
The Torah (Taw' rat), Zabboor (Jam' bur), Injeel (Ingil) and Quran appeared during the last seven thousand years.
The first three Holy Books (revealed to Prophets Moses, David, and Jesus respectively) are actually the parts of the Divine Message that the Quran contains.
Similarly, the Message in the Scriptures of Rigg Veda (Rug Vedh), Yajur Veda (Jujr Vedh), and Saam Veda (Sham Vedh) in the first three Yugs was briefly repeated in the Athir Veda (Athar Vedh), which appeared in the beginning of the fourth Yug, the Kal Yug, but before the Great Flood.
That is why the Holy Pir said that Athir Veda is the Holy Quran.
About seven thousand years of the Kal Yug have passed so far, during which the Biblical Prophets lived.
The ninth Awtaar, the Manifestation of Noor of Allah, was Hazrat Buddh (not the Buddha who was Prince Sidharatha in 500 B.C.). He was Prophet Adam but not the Abul Bashr.
There are 4 Kalaps: 1. Jaheyla 2. Faheyla 3. Arja 4. Khalifa
Similarly, there are 3 Karans, each 33 million years which = 99 million years.
The 4 Yugs (Jugs) are:
KARTA YUG TRETA YUG DWAPUR YUG KAL YUG 1,728,000 yrs. 1,296,000 yrs. 864,000 yrs. 432,000 yrs.Totally, 4,320,000 years.
The 4 Angels and their duties are: MIKAEL ASHRAFIL AZRAIL GABRIEL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lakh Chorasi" mentioned in our Ginans is nothing else but the theory of evolution.
If you read "Moman Chitwaini" by our Holy Pir Sadruddin, you will get the full explanation about evolution and the process of creation.
This book contains 630 stanzas but the language is difficult.
It requires an expert to understand it. Some knowledge of Sanskrit and Prakrit is absolutely necessary.
Lakh Chorasi means 8,400,000 stages or forms of life on earth.
It means a form of a species.
For example, there are more than 3,000 species of snakes known today. But many more species might have been living in the past, and are now extinct.
It has taken 4,313,000 years of evolution from the amoeba to man of today. Some details:
It took the amoeba 432,000 years to evolve into a fish.
It took the fish 432,000 years to evolve into a tortoise.
It took the tortoise 432,000 years to evolve to a mammal like water hog.
It took the water hog 432,000 years to evolve to a higher form of mammal like a lion.
It took the lion 432,000 years to evolve to an ape such as a chimpanzee or sometimes known as the missing link.
It took that ape 432,000 years to evolve to the first man with intelligence. He was actually the ADAM known as ABUL BASHR.
After another 432,000 years' period of development, the civilized man appeared during the period of the first RAMA (there are hundreds of kings known as Rama) who lived about 864,000 years ago.
Modern man and his immediate ancestors have been living on earth for the past 7,000 years during which the Biblical Prophets have appeared.. The Great Flood perhaps came in this period.
Between the two major stages of evolution such as amoeba and fish, there were thousands of developing and evolving stages which produced hundred of thousands of species. Most of them are now extinct.
DAS AWTAAR
Our theory of Das Awtaar is not Hindu mythology though it is found in Hindu Scriptures.
It is in fact the explanation of the process of evolution in a simple manner, and understanding its relation to the Divine Guidance.
The Sanskrit word "awtaar" is generally misunderstood by most of us.
It means to descend or descended; to change shape; the span of life; preface; one after another etc.
So you see it does not mean God.
It means descended, the Arabic equivalent of which is "naazil" or "munazzil".
These words have been extensively used in the Holy Quran where Allah mentions His Noor or His message.
Our Holy Imam Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah once explained the existence of the MACHHA-AWTAAR in these words:
"When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above."(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)
KHAAN
In Sanskrit, Khaan means store or evolution. The Holy Pir has also mentioned that there were four divisions of the process of evolution.
These are: Shitage Khaan, Jadage Khaan, Indage Khaan, and Udrbhud Khaan:
Shitage (or Sitej): Growth by fission; multiplication of living cells, ameba, germ, bacteria, etc. In other words, creation from the earth, for example metal, minerals, mountains.
Jadage (or Jjrej): Growth from seed or twig such as trees, plants, vegetation. In other words, creation on the earth for example trees, plants.
Indage (or Indej): Growth from an egg such as birds, reptiles, fish, etc.
Udr-Bhud (or Udhboj): Growth in a womb such as animals and human beings.
SOUL
The human soul has crossed the vast ocean of Lakh Chorasi and now appears in human stage.
There is enough evidence that the soul is developing and progressing all the time.
Everything that Nature has produced is progressing. If there is any deterioration or destruction, it is for reproduction in a better form.
Normally a soul will not turn back to an animal stage; but, of course, in some exceptional cases a soul may be retarded or degraded to lower stages as a punishment and for improvement. Otherwise it is created and is meant for development. It may make progress during its human life on earth as well as in the Hereafter.
A human being is given several chances in his lifetime to improve and develop. He is also given many lives to make progress enough to reach nearer and nearer to his Creator.
EVOLUTION IN GINANS
According to our Holy Ginans, the Wonderful Tradition, life started on earth thousands of million years ago.
It was destroyed after a certain evolution for many millions of years. After the elapse of some millenniums, life reappeared on earth.
There were many such cycles of life and destruction.
The present cycle of life on earth started about 3,985,000 years ago.
According to Hazrat Pir Sadruddin (1300-1415 A.D.), life on earth started with the amoeba.
It evolved and divided into 1870 million species (varieties) of life in water, in the air, and on the ground.
In the beginning, the earth was not so far away from the sun. Life started first in the north, perhaps in the arctic region because this was the first part of the earth to cool down.
As the north became unbearably cold, the creatures moved down toward the tropical zone.
One-third of the species became extinct in the process of evolution.
In the beginning of the second Yug Treta, man evolved from ape.
This phenomenon occurred about 2.2 million years ago.
Scientists are gradually discovering now what Hazrat Pir Sadruddin had told us six hundred years ago.
The Torah (Taw' rat), Zabboor (Jam' bur), Injeel (Ingil) and Quran appeared during the last seven thousand years.
The first three Holy Books (revealed to Prophets Moses, David, and Jesus respectively) are actually the parts of the Divine Message that the Quran contains.
Similarly, the Message in the Scriptures of Rigg Veda (Rug Vedh), Yajur Veda (Jujr Vedh), and Saam Veda (Sham Vedh) in the first three Yugs was briefly repeated in the Athir Veda (Athar Vedh), which appeared in the beginning of the fourth Yug, the Kal Yug, but before the Great Flood.
That is why the Holy Pir said that Athir Veda is the Holy Quran.
About seven thousand years of the Kal Yug have passed so far, during which the Biblical Prophets lived.
The ninth Awtaar, the Manifestation of Noor of Allah, was Hazrat Buddh (not the Buddha who was Prince Sidharatha in 500 B.C.). He was Prophet Adam but not the Abul Bashr.
There are 4 Kalaps: 1. Jaheyla 2. Faheyla 3. Arja 4. Khalifa
Similarly, there are 3 Karans, each 33 million years which = 99 million years.
The 4 Yugs (Jugs) are:
KARTA YUG TRETA YUG DWAPUR YUG KAL YUG 1,728,000 yrs. 1,296,000 yrs. 864,000 yrs. 432,000 yrs.Totally, 4,320,000 years.
The 4 Angels and their duties are: MIKAEL ASHRAFIL AZRAIL GABRIEL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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haroon_adel
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
- Location: USA
As always, pretty informative and well put contents. Good work znanwalla!
The excerpt that you'd posted here pertaining EVOLUTION, is pretty interesting, and needless to say credible. However, I'm very much tempted to ask your openion regarding Charles Darwin's theory of evolution regarding human race. Do you see any connection? or It's totally balck and white. Can you please elaborate on this topic.
Well, according to my understanding there is. For example, in mainstream Islam Qiamat is interpreted as the end of the world. (This is my understanding and openion, btw). Also, in Christianity, End of days is reffered in the Bible, I guess, as apocalypse, where the world would end. I think, these are some common belief according to different relegions. However, I could be wrong, since I don't have extensive background on it.znanwalla wrote:The question I ask you whether there exists a common belief? let me know.
However, my belief is what you had pretty much put it in your own words, here.znanwalla wrote:I am in paradise so to speak....haven't seen "qiyamat" - have you? so then how does one describe it other than to say it could be the state of our own minds....some say the happiness one enjoys here is paradise....and the trials and tribulations is hell...so what is your take on this?
The excerpt that you'd posted here pertaining EVOLUTION, is pretty interesting, and needless to say credible. However, I'm very much tempted to ask your openion regarding Charles Darwin's theory of evolution regarding human race. Do you see any connection? or It's totally balck and white. Can you please elaborate on this topic.
Do you see any conflict? if so then please let me know as to me Intellect and faith are not in conflict and so Darwin's theory does not show much of a conflict either to me save maybe in the use of terminology or "semantics" if you will....
The order of this world is based on "cause and effect" and all existential phenomena is established according to this relationship.
The effect of one phenomena upon the other is contingent, however, upon the divine Will and so Allah's Will and Wisdom manifests itself through this order so much so that the effusion of HIS grace shines through the very nature of things being manifested by the "observable" relationships between cause and effect.
The noble quran expresses these points remarkably...
"HE hath appointed the sky as a Canopy and sent down rain from the sky causing therewith fruits to arise(from the earth) as sustenance for you..." (Sura al Baqara)
"And God brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers while ye knew nothing and HE gave you hearing and sight and hearts (afi'da) that ye may give thanks..." (Sura al Nahl).
"As for the good land, its vegetation comes forth, with the permission of its Lord..." (Sura al Ar'af)
"We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them save with TRUTH and for a TERM Appointed..." Sura al Ahqaf).
"Then WE produced it as another creation..." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
"Such as remember God standing, sitting and reclining and reflect upon the creation of the heaven and the earth (and say) OUR Lord Thou didst not create this in vain..." (Sura al Imran)
"Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of night and day, are signs for men of understanding..." (Sura al Imran)
"God is HE WHo sendeth the winds so that they may raise clouds and spreadeth them along the sky as HE will..." (Sura al Rum)
" GOD it is WHO raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service....Each runneth unto an appointed term...HE governs over the affair (of creation)..." Sura al Ra'd)
Thus Darwin is merely trying to offer you a perspective based on his study of the marvels of this created order and these wondrous signs indicate and prove the existence of a Being possessed of some transcendent knowledge and supreme power save darwin is falling short of saying so...regardless I do not see any conflict between science discoveries and faith but the power of prayer transcends the power of science, if I may say so....
Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Brief Summary
Darwin's theory of evolution is based on five key observations and inferences drawn from them. These observations and inferences have been summarized by the great biologist Ernst Mayr as follows:
1) Species have great fertility. They make more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2) Populations remain roughly the same size, with modest fluctuations.
3) Food resources are limited, but are relatively constant most of the time.
From these three observations it may be inferred that in such an environment there will be a struggle for survival among individuals.
4) In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical. Variation is rampant.
5) Much of this variation is heritable.
From this it may be inferred: In a world of stable populations where each individual must struggle to survive, those with the "best" characteristics will be more likely to survive, and those desirable traits will be passed to their offspring.
These advantageous characteristics are inherited by following generations, becoming dominant among the population through time. This is natural selection.
It may be further inferred that natural selection, if carried far enough, makes changes in a population, eventually leading to new species.
These observations have been amply demonstrated in biology, and even fossils demonstrate the veracity of these observations.
To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;
1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits
are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.
Darwin imagined it might be possible that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times.
DNA evidence supports this idea.
Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial life form.
There is grandeur in this view of life that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species)
The order of this world is based on "cause and effect" and all existential phenomena is established according to this relationship.
The effect of one phenomena upon the other is contingent, however, upon the divine Will and so Allah's Will and Wisdom manifests itself through this order so much so that the effusion of HIS grace shines through the very nature of things being manifested by the "observable" relationships between cause and effect.
The noble quran expresses these points remarkably...
"HE hath appointed the sky as a Canopy and sent down rain from the sky causing therewith fruits to arise(from the earth) as sustenance for you..." (Sura al Baqara)
"And God brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers while ye knew nothing and HE gave you hearing and sight and hearts (afi'da) that ye may give thanks..." (Sura al Nahl).
"As for the good land, its vegetation comes forth, with the permission of its Lord..." (Sura al Ar'af)
"We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them save with TRUTH and for a TERM Appointed..." Sura al Ahqaf).
"Then WE produced it as another creation..." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
"Such as remember God standing, sitting and reclining and reflect upon the creation of the heaven and the earth (and say) OUR Lord Thou didst not create this in vain..." (Sura al Imran)
"Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of night and day, are signs for men of understanding..." (Sura al Imran)
"God is HE WHo sendeth the winds so that they may raise clouds and spreadeth them along the sky as HE will..." (Sura al Rum)
" GOD it is WHO raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service....Each runneth unto an appointed term...HE governs over the affair (of creation)..." Sura al Ra'd)
Thus Darwin is merely trying to offer you a perspective based on his study of the marvels of this created order and these wondrous signs indicate and prove the existence of a Being possessed of some transcendent knowledge and supreme power save darwin is falling short of saying so...regardless I do not see any conflict between science discoveries and faith but the power of prayer transcends the power of science, if I may say so....
Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Brief Summary
Darwin's theory of evolution is based on five key observations and inferences drawn from them. These observations and inferences have been summarized by the great biologist Ernst Mayr as follows:
1) Species have great fertility. They make more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2) Populations remain roughly the same size, with modest fluctuations.
3) Food resources are limited, but are relatively constant most of the time.
From these three observations it may be inferred that in such an environment there will be a struggle for survival among individuals.
4) In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical. Variation is rampant.
5) Much of this variation is heritable.
From this it may be inferred: In a world of stable populations where each individual must struggle to survive, those with the "best" characteristics will be more likely to survive, and those desirable traits will be passed to their offspring.
These advantageous characteristics are inherited by following generations, becoming dominant among the population through time. This is natural selection.
It may be further inferred that natural selection, if carried far enough, makes changes in a population, eventually leading to new species.
These observations have been amply demonstrated in biology, and even fossils demonstrate the veracity of these observations.
To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;
1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits
are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.
Darwin imagined it might be possible that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times.
DNA evidence supports this idea.
Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial life form.
There is grandeur in this view of life that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species)
-
haroon_adel
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
- Location: USA
Is Darwin's theory accepted by Islam?znanwalla wrote:Do you see any conflict? if so then please let me know as to me Intellect and faith are not in conflict and so Darwin's theory does not show much of a conflict either to me save maybe in the use of terminology or "semantics" if you will....
The order of this world is based on "cause and effect" and all existential phenomena is established according to this relationship.
The effect of one phenomena upon the other is contingent, however, upon the divine Will and so Allah's Will and Wisdom manifests itself through this order so much so that the effusion of HIS grace shines through the very nature of things being manifested by the "observable" relationships between cause and effect.
The noble quran expresses these points remarkably...
"HE hath appointed the sky as a Canopy and sent down rain from the sky causing therewith fruits to arise(from the earth) as sustenance for you..." (Sura al Baqara)
"And God brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers while ye knew nothing and HE gave you hearing and sight and hearts (afi'da) that ye may give thanks..." (Sura al Nahl).
"As for the good land, its vegetation comes forth, with the permission of its Lord..." (Sura al Ar'af)
"We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them save with TRUTH and for a TERM Appointed..." Sura al Ahqaf).
"Then WE produced it as another creation..." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
"Such as remember God standing, sitting and reclining and reflect upon the creation of the heaven and the earth (and say) OUR Lord Thou didst not create this in vain..." (Sura al Imran)
"Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of night and day, are signs for men of understanding..." (Sura al Imran)
"God is HE WHo sendeth the winds so that they may raise clouds and spreadeth them along the sky as HE will..." (Sura al Rum)
" GOD it is WHO raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service....Each runneth unto an appointed term...HE governs over the affair (of creation)..." Sura al Ra'd)
Thus Darwin is merely trying to offer you a perspective based on his study of the marvels of this created order and these wondrous signs indicate and prove the existence of a Being possessed of some transcendent knowledge and supreme power save darwin is falling short of saying so...regardless I do not see any conflict between science discoveries and faith but the power of prayer transcends the power of science, if I may say so....
Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Brief Summary
Darwin's theory of evolution is based on five key observations and inferences drawn from them. These observations and inferences have been summarized by the great biologist Ernst Mayr as follows:
1) Species have great fertility. They make more offspring than can grow to adulthood.
2) Populations remain roughly the same size, with modest fluctuations.
3) Food resources are limited, but are relatively constant most of the time.
From these three observations it may be inferred that in such an environment there will be a struggle for survival among individuals.
4) In sexually reproducing species, generally no two individuals are identical. Variation is rampant.
5) Much of this variation is heritable.
From this it may be inferred: In a world of stable populations where each individual must struggle to survive, those with the "best" characteristics will be more likely to survive, and those desirable traits will be passed to their offspring.
These advantageous characteristics are inherited by following generations, becoming dominant among the population through time. This is natural selection.
It may be further inferred that natural selection, if carried far enough, makes changes in a population, eventually leading to new species.
These observations have been amply demonstrated in biology, and even fossils demonstrate the veracity of these observations.
To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;
1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits
are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.
Darwin imagined it might be possible that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times.
DNA evidence supports this idea.
Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial life form.
There is grandeur in this view of life that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species)
Can you elaborate on how Adam was created [It's mentioned in Qur'an?]? (I kind of know, that you have information in this regard as well).
How Darwin's theory and what Islam believes is different? if they are. I know, you asked me this question, but I'd like to ask you back this very same question.
"...Darwin imagined it might be possible that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times. DNA evidence supports this idea. Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial life form. .."
"..Is Darwin's theory accepted by Islam?..."
Why? do you think it isn't? then lay a groundwork for your argument !
And does Islam's credibility lie in following what Darwin or any other scientists believe ? rather it is may be just the opposite....
A careful study of the created universe, along with meditation upon its secrets and its mysteries, leads us to discover quickly about God's perfection and so can anyone including your Guru Darwin and your religion Science, conceive of the raising up of the magnificent edifice of this creation without any active involvement of some transcendent knowledge, power and Will? and does your master Darwin not allude to this too?
"..Can you elaborate on how Adam was created [It's mentioned in Qur'an?]? (I kind of know, that you have information in this regard as well)...."
If it is mentioned in the quran then why are you asking me? don't you believe what the quran tells you?
"..How Darwin's theory and what Islam believes is different? if they are. I know, you asked me this question, but I'd like to ask you back this very same question..."
Unless you lay a proper foundation and groundwork, asking ambiguous questions and skirmishing with words which are futile, shows you have barely any clue...
Please show us how and where Darwin conflicts Islam? Each person is created with a pure primordial nature (fitra) and with the consciousness of the Divine Oneness and the christian concept of "original" sin in respect of humankind is utterly alien to Islam....
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
"..Can you elaborate on how Adam was created [It's mentioned in Qur'an?]? (I kind of know, that you have information in this regard as well)...."
If it is mentioned in the quran then why are you asking me? don't you believe what the quran tells you?
"..How Darwin's theory and what Islam believes is different? if they are. I know, you asked me this question, but I'd like to ask you back this very same question..."
Unless you lay a proper foundation and groundwork, asking ambiguous questions and skirmishing with words which are futile, shows you have barely any clue...
Please show us how and where Darwin conflicts Islam? Each person is created with a pure primordial nature (fitra) and with the consciousness of the Divine Oneness and the christian concept of "original" sin in respect of humankind is utterly alien to Islam....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG54AelcDio
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shiraz.virani
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haroon_adel
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
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Darwin just had a theory! Theories can not be proven, unless you have evidence. Or you can prove it mathematically/scientifically. You said DNA evidence supports it. So, please provide evidence/links/resources as to support your groundwork.znanwalla wrote:...Darwin imagined it might be possible that all life is descended from an original species from ancient times. DNA evidence supports this idea. Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial life form. .."
"..Is Darwin's theory accepted by Islam?..."
Why? do you think it isn't? then lay a groundwork for your argument !
If it's mentioned in the Qur'an, then one must accept what's in the Qur'an, provided that one is Muslim and submits to Allah and Imam of the time.
The only reason, why Darwin was braught into this discussion, is because you have provided some interesting excerpt regarding the evolution. I simply asked your openion about Darwin's theory, that he also had similar theory that human race is from some chimpanzy's race. I don't believe this theory. If you do, please provide groundwork and proof that back your theory up.
Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about. Not Darwin is my Guru (I thaught he might be yours), nor I do agree with his theory. If I wiegh your arguments, then you are more in favor of Darwin's theory than anyone else. lolznanwalla wrote: And does Islam's credibility lie in following what Darwin or any other scientists believe ? rather it is may be just the opposite....
A careful study of the created universe, along with meditation upon its secrets and its mysteries, leads us to discover quickly about God's perfection and so can anyone including your Guru Darwin and your religion Science, conceive of the raising up of the magnificent edifice of this creation without any active involvement of some transcendent knowledge, power and Will? and does your master Darwin not allude to this too?
Can you please prove to me that existence of God is also not a "theory"? how does one prove that one's father is indeed the real father ? or is that too a theory? so kindly provide evidence ( a) that God really exists and (b) your own father is the real one and not an imposter or a substitute? theories and surmises are not enough...I need evidence
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haroon_adel
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Ok, then you made yourself clear. You are a Darwinist. Much simpler. You could've just said that in the very beginning. Would've saved yoruself lots of breath.znanwalla wrote:Can you please prove to me that existence of God is also not a "theory"? how does one prove that one's father is indeed the real father ? or is that too a theory? so kindly provide evidence ( a) that God really exists and (b) your own father is the real one and not an imposter or a substitute? theories and surmises are not enough...I need evidence
Well, I can't balme you that you are in doubt of your father being your real actual father. I can't help you with that miss purr. But, I give you a hint, as why you get this idea about your father.
I think it must have happens to you that your mother is ... I don't know how to put it in a scholar way so to be polite, so to speak ... but, I'll make it simpler ... a whore. So, unless you don't believe that your father's your real father, then I think the only way to find out is to ask would be your mother, provided that she wanted to tell you the truth. But, you've got your self an idea. IT's just a theory. right?
You must be mad at yourself. lol
"...Darwin just had a theory! Theories can not be proven, unless you have evidence. Or you can prove it mathematically/scientifically. You said DNA evidence supports it. So, please provide evidence/links/resources as to support your groundwork....."
You are the one who seemed obsessed by Darwin - not me ! You are the one who brought Darwin into play ! not me !
I do not depend on what Darwin your Master says _ frankly I care two hoots...You claimed that Darwin and Islam were in conflict - I asked you how? You are beating around the bush....is Islam dependant upon whether man evolved from a chimpanzee or any other form? and who cares what Darwin may think?
You asked for proof...I did the same....you thus called me a "whore" because you had no steam left other than to show that you are uncultured and could think of nothing else worthwhile to say....
A prostitute is honest atleast. I have a lot more respect for a prostitutes than for any man who has ever visited one and now calls them "bad women".
And if indeed you are a real pious man, the one who really stays away from "bazari women", then it just shows what the delusion of self-righteousness can do to a man in this decadent society.
I reject the morality that men like you think, is only for women. I reject double standards of chauvinism.
I find it very interesting when people like you call women prostitutes and "bad women".
Since now we all know that how many men of all classes benefit from these women's services.
Those men later marry "good women" and sometimes even after marriage keep seeing these "bad women'.
I personally fail to see the difference between the wives of such men and these prostitutes.
And this is why I totally fail to see these prostitutes as bad women as well.
If a wife can charge tremendous amount of money to live with a husband/man who sees a prostitute, so can a prostitute.
A prostitute has more than one partners, a personal choice in which no deception is involved atleast.
"Pious men" who go to them in the darkness are the ones deceiving the society....right pal ?
A prostitute is honest. I have a lot more respect for a prostitute than for any man who has ever visited one and now calls women a "bad women".
You are the one who seemed obsessed by Darwin - not me ! You are the one who brought Darwin into play ! not me !
I do not depend on what Darwin your Master says _ frankly I care two hoots...You claimed that Darwin and Islam were in conflict - I asked you how? You are beating around the bush....is Islam dependant upon whether man evolved from a chimpanzee or any other form? and who cares what Darwin may think?
You asked for proof...I did the same....you thus called me a "whore" because you had no steam left other than to show that you are uncultured and could think of nothing else worthwhile to say....
A prostitute is honest atleast. I have a lot more respect for a prostitutes than for any man who has ever visited one and now calls them "bad women".
And if indeed you are a real pious man, the one who really stays away from "bazari women", then it just shows what the delusion of self-righteousness can do to a man in this decadent society.
I reject the morality that men like you think, is only for women. I reject double standards of chauvinism.
I find it very interesting when people like you call women prostitutes and "bad women".
Since now we all know that how many men of all classes benefit from these women's services.
Those men later marry "good women" and sometimes even after marriage keep seeing these "bad women'.
I personally fail to see the difference between the wives of such men and these prostitutes.
And this is why I totally fail to see these prostitutes as bad women as well.
If a wife can charge tremendous amount of money to live with a husband/man who sees a prostitute, so can a prostitute.
A prostitute has more than one partners, a personal choice in which no deception is involved atleast.
"Pious men" who go to them in the darkness are the ones deceiving the society....right pal ?
A prostitute is honest. I have a lot more respect for a prostitute than for any man who has ever visited one and now calls women a "bad women".
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shiraz.virani
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"...since all your reasoning support his theory..."
The mere fact that my arguments may not directly conflict someone's theory does not mean it necessarily supports it either - why do you draw surmises which are dangerously speculative?
I asked you to show me if Darwin's theory conflicts Islam and if so how? You could not give proper answers?....it seems you were expecting me to oppose it outright and I did not do so, on purpose and stratagically, thus derailing your argument and causing you immense displeasure and disappointment !....does it matter where and how I have evolved from? the important thing to know is where did you evolve from? was it from a different source? or was it from the same source OR..... and I hope not from the rear end because Darwin thinks this is a possibility Sir for those with brains which are dysfunctional and full of trichnosis running in the blood , an innate quality of a man like you who always seem to think of their mothers and sisters as whores....perhaps this now explains to the world why muslim women in Iraq and Syria have ended up in brothels where their best clients are the "good" muslim men who have made it "halal" for themselves to visit them and then call them "bad women"...even though Islam says to them that "any other woman other than your own is haram".....so stop barking pal ! and stop churning out your fairy tales...they don't even make up for good bedtime stories
The mere fact that my arguments may not directly conflict someone's theory does not mean it necessarily supports it either - why do you draw surmises which are dangerously speculative?
I asked you to show me if Darwin's theory conflicts Islam and if so how? You could not give proper answers?....it seems you were expecting me to oppose it outright and I did not do so, on purpose and stratagically, thus derailing your argument and causing you immense displeasure and disappointment !....does it matter where and how I have evolved from? the important thing to know is where did you evolve from? was it from a different source? or was it from the same source OR..... and I hope not from the rear end because Darwin thinks this is a possibility Sir for those with brains which are dysfunctional and full of trichnosis running in the blood , an innate quality of a man like you who always seem to think of their mothers and sisters as whores....perhaps this now explains to the world why muslim women in Iraq and Syria have ended up in brothels where their best clients are the "good" muslim men who have made it "halal" for themselves to visit them and then call them "bad women"...even though Islam says to them that "any other woman other than your own is haram".....so stop barking pal ! and stop churning out your fairy tales...they don't even make up for good bedtime stories
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haroon_adel
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- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
- Location: USA
That's exactly what I was trying to ask Miss Purr. But, as always, she has the habit of side-tracking and bringing all kind of topics--totally un-related to the subject of the conversation-into discussion.shiraz.virani wrote:if both brother haroon_adel and sister znanwalla denounce darwins theory , i would like to ask you both to prove DAS -AVATAR [ismaili interpretation] in your own words please !
thank you
This is where my question actually arises, brother Shiraz. So can you give a response to what I've asked, in this regard? Because, it was out of scope of sister Zanwallah, obviously.
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Any message however long, containing one word of insult to anyone or offensive word, will be deleted
If you can not post decent discussions please move to another forum. Postings are archived for the next few centuries and no one in the next few centuries will be interested in reading offensive messages, hopefully they will be much more civilized than what we see in this era of history
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I have denounced anything? I maintained clearly that I did not find much of a conflict without going into a detailed submission....one looks at the scales from say 1 - 10 and I asked the "good" muslim to explain where and how he finds Darwin's views in conflict with Islam? he has failed to respond effectively ...the best offering he could make is to call me a whore !
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haroon_adel
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What didn't you find confilect between? Can you be more clear, and not beat around the bush? Just state it clearly.znanwalla wrote:I have denounced anything? I maintained clearly that I did not find much of a conflict without going into a detailed submission....one looks at the scales from say 1 - 10 and I asked the "good" muslim to explain where and how he finds Darwin's views in conflict with Islam? he has failed to respond effectively ...the best offering he could make is to call me a whore !
By weighing your arguments/reasonings you clearly support, if not approve, darwin's theory, that all human race are from chimpanzee (You stated loud and clear). And you ask, if there's a conflict between your guru (darwin) and the Qur'an! You clearly don't have any shame, sister Purr.
You ask me i called you a W. Well, your question deserved that kind of a language, nothing better! So, next time before asking a stupid question like that, think twice. You are sitting behind a computer and writing what you want, but the fact of the matter may well be that you could be one.
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shiraz.virani
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sister znanwalla said :
holy quran comes to the rescue ! both brother haroon_adel and sister znanwalla, its upto you to believe whatever you feel...there is no compulsion
51:47 (Picktall) We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof).
Modern cosmology supported this fact of expanding universe in the twentieth century. Like in the case of every verse below, readers will discover that these facts were mentioned in the Holy Qur'an over 1400 years ago, in order to confirm to us humans that the Holy Qur'an is God's message to humanity, and consequently to follow its teachings in order to live happily in this life and in the hereafter.
21:30 (Picktall) Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
The focus is on the creation of life; therefore, the part of the verse concerning the relationship between life and water is of special importance. Basically, life depends on the availability of water, which has become a scientific given.
For decades, space programs have had a major goal of investigating whether there is water on other planets or not, in order to begin the exploration of whether there is life on those planets or not. Several verses of the Holy Qur’an have stated clearly that every living being has been created from water.
Water covers about seventy percent of the surface of the Earth, which has provided it with the essential requirement of life.
4.1 . O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them has spread a multitude of men and women.
This verse tells us that the beginning of life was a single soul, then its mate came out of it. Biological science tells us that the earliest form of life was represented by single cell organisms found in water, then these multiplied by splitting themselves. With the course of time, reproduction started to be by mating pairs, instead of the archaic forms of splitting or dividing.
The same meaning is expressed in other verses, such as 30.21, as follows:
30.21 . And of His signs: He has created for you from yourselves mates with whom you find rest , and He ordained between you love and mercy . In this, there are signs for people who ponder .
read the holy quran, everything is mentioned in it !!....its just that you have to read and understand it
24.45 . Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, ( another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (he wants) .
In this verse, Allah (swt) tells us that animals were originally created out of water (as was the origin of humans). Some of these animals walk on their belly (like snakes), others walk on two legs or on four legs.
We know that almost all animals except kangaroos (and penguins) walk on four legs. However, for Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings be upon him) and old world humans at the time of revelation (1429 years ago), they did not know that there was an animal which walked on two legs in Australia. Only God knew that and has told us about it, as another piece of evidence that He is the author of the Holy Qur’an, not any human being.
32.7. (Allah is He) who has made everything He created better, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay.
In this verse, we are told that Allah (swt) began the creation of human beings out of clay, but that was the beginning, then He improved His creation making it better.
The most relevant word in this verse is "began" (bada-a), which tells us clearly that creation happened in a process that had a beginning, not just at once. The same meaning is found in Verse 15, Chapter 50
50:15 (Picktall) Were We then worn out by the first creation? Yet they are in doubt about a new creation
This verse confirms the meaning included in 32.7, saying that there was a first creation, the creation of life, which then evolved according to a long process of learning how to adapt to the environemnt.
The scientific evidence available to us tells us that the beginning of life was in an environment similar to swamps, which are composed basically of water and and earth matter. This produced clay, where the first forms of life began in the form of single cell organisms. These organisms multiplied reproducing themselves first by splitting and division. However, later, they paired as males and females to reproduce as they took other life forms in the sea and on land. Reproduction has become in the form of uniting the watery genetic materials of males and females, as the following verse (32.
reveals :
32.8 . Then He made his offspring from a quintessence of despised water (coming out of parents).
I have denounced anything? I maintained clearly that I did not find much of a conflict without going into a detailed submission....one looks at the scales from say 1 - 10 and I asked the "good" muslim to explain where and how he finds Darwin's views in conflict with Islam? he has failed to respond effectively ...the best offering he could make is to call me a whore !
holy quran comes to the rescue ! both brother haroon_adel and sister znanwalla, its upto you to believe whatever you feel...there is no compulsion
51:47 (Picktall) We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof).
Modern cosmology supported this fact of expanding universe in the twentieth century. Like in the case of every verse below, readers will discover that these facts were mentioned in the Holy Qur'an over 1400 years ago, in order to confirm to us humans that the Holy Qur'an is God's message to humanity, and consequently to follow its teachings in order to live happily in this life and in the hereafter.
21:30 (Picktall) Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and We made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
The focus is on the creation of life; therefore, the part of the verse concerning the relationship between life and water is of special importance. Basically, life depends on the availability of water, which has become a scientific given.
For decades, space programs have had a major goal of investigating whether there is water on other planets or not, in order to begin the exploration of whether there is life on those planets or not. Several verses of the Holy Qur’an have stated clearly that every living being has been created from water.
Water covers about seventy percent of the surface of the Earth, which has provided it with the essential requirement of life.
4.1 . O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them has spread a multitude of men and women.
This verse tells us that the beginning of life was a single soul, then its mate came out of it. Biological science tells us that the earliest form of life was represented by single cell organisms found in water, then these multiplied by splitting themselves. With the course of time, reproduction started to be by mating pairs, instead of the archaic forms of splitting or dividing.
The same meaning is expressed in other verses, such as 30.21, as follows:
30.21 . And of His signs: He has created for you from yourselves mates with whom you find rest , and He ordained between you love and mercy . In this, there are signs for people who ponder .
read the holy quran, everything is mentioned in it !!....its just that you have to read and understand it
24.45 . Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, ( another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (he wants) .
In this verse, Allah (swt) tells us that animals were originally created out of water (as was the origin of humans). Some of these animals walk on their belly (like snakes), others walk on two legs or on four legs.
We know that almost all animals except kangaroos (and penguins) walk on four legs. However, for Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings be upon him) and old world humans at the time of revelation (1429 years ago), they did not know that there was an animal which walked on two legs in Australia. Only God knew that and has told us about it, as another piece of evidence that He is the author of the Holy Qur’an, not any human being.
32.7. (Allah is He) who has made everything He created better, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay.
In this verse, we are told that Allah (swt) began the creation of human beings out of clay, but that was the beginning, then He improved His creation making it better.
The most relevant word in this verse is "began" (bada-a), which tells us clearly that creation happened in a process that had a beginning, not just at once. The same meaning is found in Verse 15, Chapter 50
50:15 (Picktall) Were We then worn out by the first creation? Yet they are in doubt about a new creation
This verse confirms the meaning included in 32.7, saying that there was a first creation, the creation of life, which then evolved according to a long process of learning how to adapt to the environemnt.
The scientific evidence available to us tells us that the beginning of life was in an environment similar to swamps, which are composed basically of water and and earth matter. This produced clay, where the first forms of life began in the form of single cell organisms. These organisms multiplied reproducing themselves first by splitting and division. However, later, they paired as males and females to reproduce as they took other life forms in the sea and on land. Reproduction has become in the form of uniting the watery genetic materials of males and females, as the following verse (32.
reveals :32.8 . Then He made his offspring from a quintessence of despised water (coming out of parents).
"...This is where my question actually arises, brother Shiraz. So can you give a response..."
I concur ! so shiraz make a response now and explain to us the relevance and the connection you both seem to make with the hope of deriding the Das Avtar concept by depending on what Darwin may or may not have said?....and then I will make a suitable response....the onus is upon you...to disprove....not upon me to prove anything
in the interim let me just say that why would someone want to rely on Darwin and not the scriptures which provides the indications to mankind?
The philosophy is simple !The "Das Avtar" was born in Arabia !
Jesus has also said this over and over that Muhamad will be the "elect of God" and God shall be by him, manifested to the World and he will execute vengeance against idol worshippers and munafiqun - then Jesus said that through him "OUR God" will be glorified and Jesus has referred to Muhamad as the Messiah or Saviour - and so what other Islamic explanation you want when Jesus himself has said who is the "elect of God"?
"...Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not, it is alike for them, for they believe not.
Thou warnest only him who followeth the Reminder and feareth the Beneficent in secret.
To him bear tidings of forgiveness and a rich reward.
Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them), and their footprints.
And all things We have kept in a MANIFEST IMAM.
Manifest means not hidden ! but apparent ! the quran also refers to the Manifest Imam as the "Clear Book"...
Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent (from Allah) came unto them.
After muhammad's passing, a group of visitors went to his widow, Aisha. They asked her, "What was the Prophet, God's Messenger, like? "Have you read the Quran?"
She replied. He was the living Quran.
In Jange Sifin Ali (As) said the same thing i.e. he was Qur'an E Natikq; the Book (Qur'an) was Samit. All Shia's accept this. Now tell us what did Ali (AS) mean by what he said ?
Abdul Qadir al-Jilani (Essential Sufism): God said, through the Prophet,
"Man is my secret and I am his secret. The inner knowledge of the spiritual essence is a secret of My secrets. Only I put this into the heart of My good servant, and none may know his state other than Me."..
The Prophet used to make Ali (AS) sleep on his chest each night and he used to take something from his mouth and put it into Ali's mouth who was a child then....at the family feast the Prophet said..."Ali is my brother, and my successor....."Ali's flesh is my flesh"
Rumi: It is necessary to have a guide for the spiritual journey. Choose a master, for without one this journey is full if trials, fears, and dangers.
With no escort, you would be lost on a road you have already taken. Do not travel alon the Path. Whoever travels without a guide needs two hundred years for a two-day journey.
Source: Al-Ghazzali and the Ismailis by Farouk Mitha
Do you remember Abraham? After Adam , Abraham was also raised by Allah to "Imamship" of the entire mankind and Abraham asked ALLAH, for Imams from his progeny. thus anyone not tracing descendancy from Abraham, through Moses and Jesus and Muhamad, are not the Imams though they may call themselves as such.....
Imamat is a divine insitution and the Imams from the progeny of the prophets are designated through NASS - not elected by the people - nor do they self-appoint themselves, if you will.
" Verily I make thee Imam for mankind " - Abraham said:.." And of my offspring".....Allah said " Yes! but my Covenant reaches NOT the unjust ones ! So overtime the wrong-doers have dis -appeared, as per the covenant Allah made with Abraham....
This ayah of Sura al Baqara is self-explanatory and supports the rightfulness of Muhamad (SAW) Rasul e Karim who had, during his lifetime, on many an occasion, declared Hazrat Ali to be his successor.
It was Ali who was the major force in the spread of Islam....he and Bibi Khadija were the first ones who embraced Islam and Ali was at the Prophet's side each and every time there was a problem.
It was Ali who was the grand hero feared by the enemies of Islam....it was Ali who was the envy of many including the hypocrites pretending to be Muslims...
Ali was a very close companion of the Prophet and many others felt that the Prophet was unduly "favouring" Ali only because of his relationship....No ! this was a false conclusion on their part........if one reads the incident of Mubahila, the Prophet came with his Ahl al Bayt, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Husain and challenged the adversaries who were the Christians of Najran but when they saw the Prophet with his close family, they simply withdrew from the challenge for fear of invoking the wrath of Allah upon them.
I concur ! so shiraz make a response now and explain to us the relevance and the connection you both seem to make with the hope of deriding the Das Avtar concept by depending on what Darwin may or may not have said?....and then I will make a suitable response....the onus is upon you...to disprove....not upon me to prove anything
in the interim let me just say that why would someone want to rely on Darwin and not the scriptures which provides the indications to mankind?
The philosophy is simple !The "Das Avtar" was born in Arabia !
Jesus has also said this over and over that Muhamad will be the "elect of God" and God shall be by him, manifested to the World and he will execute vengeance against idol worshippers and munafiqun - then Jesus said that through him "OUR God" will be glorified and Jesus has referred to Muhamad as the Messiah or Saviour - and so what other Islamic explanation you want when Jesus himself has said who is the "elect of God"?
"...Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not, it is alike for them, for they believe not.
Thou warnest only him who followeth the Reminder and feareth the Beneficent in secret.
To him bear tidings of forgiveness and a rich reward.
Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them), and their footprints.
And all things We have kept in a MANIFEST IMAM.
Manifest means not hidden ! but apparent ! the quran also refers to the Manifest Imam as the "Clear Book"...
Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent (from Allah) came unto them.
After muhammad's passing, a group of visitors went to his widow, Aisha. They asked her, "What was the Prophet, God's Messenger, like? "Have you read the Quran?"
She replied. He was the living Quran.
In Jange Sifin Ali (As) said the same thing i.e. he was Qur'an E Natikq; the Book (Qur'an) was Samit. All Shia's accept this. Now tell us what did Ali (AS) mean by what he said ?
Abdul Qadir al-Jilani (Essential Sufism): God said, through the Prophet,
"Man is my secret and I am his secret. The inner knowledge of the spiritual essence is a secret of My secrets. Only I put this into the heart of My good servant, and none may know his state other than Me."..
The Prophet used to make Ali (AS) sleep on his chest each night and he used to take something from his mouth and put it into Ali's mouth who was a child then....at the family feast the Prophet said..."Ali is my brother, and my successor....."Ali's flesh is my flesh"
Rumi: It is necessary to have a guide for the spiritual journey. Choose a master, for without one this journey is full if trials, fears, and dangers.
With no escort, you would be lost on a road you have already taken. Do not travel alon the Path. Whoever travels without a guide needs two hundred years for a two-day journey.
Source: Al-Ghazzali and the Ismailis by Farouk Mitha
Do you remember Abraham? After Adam , Abraham was also raised by Allah to "Imamship" of the entire mankind and Abraham asked ALLAH, for Imams from his progeny. thus anyone not tracing descendancy from Abraham, through Moses and Jesus and Muhamad, are not the Imams though they may call themselves as such.....
Imamat is a divine insitution and the Imams from the progeny of the prophets are designated through NASS - not elected by the people - nor do they self-appoint themselves, if you will.
" Verily I make thee Imam for mankind " - Abraham said:.." And of my offspring".....Allah said " Yes! but my Covenant reaches NOT the unjust ones ! So overtime the wrong-doers have dis -appeared, as per the covenant Allah made with Abraham....
This ayah of Sura al Baqara is self-explanatory and supports the rightfulness of Muhamad (SAW) Rasul e Karim who had, during his lifetime, on many an occasion, declared Hazrat Ali to be his successor.
It was Ali who was the major force in the spread of Islam....he and Bibi Khadija were the first ones who embraced Islam and Ali was at the Prophet's side each and every time there was a problem.
It was Ali who was the grand hero feared by the enemies of Islam....it was Ali who was the envy of many including the hypocrites pretending to be Muslims...
Ali was a very close companion of the Prophet and many others felt that the Prophet was unduly "favouring" Ali only because of his relationship....No ! this was a false conclusion on their part........if one reads the incident of Mubahila, the Prophet came with his Ahl al Bayt, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Husain and challenged the adversaries who were the Christians of Najran but when they saw the Prophet with his close family, they simply withdrew from the challenge for fear of invoking the wrath of Allah upon them.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
32.9. Then He shaped him (in due proportions), and breathed in him of His Spirit, and made for you hearing, sight, and hearts; little thanks you give.
When the fetus reaches a degree of mental development that allows it tor receive information, God’s basic software is installed in it
. An angel blows part of God’s spirit in His new creation. This includes at least two programs.
The first is shared with other living beings, in order to make the organs of an organism functioning internally and automatically. The second is unique to humans in that it allows humans to distinguish good from evil and consequently enables them to choose their actions.
This is a basic premise in the story of creating humans, as told by God (Praise to Him) in several chapters of the Holy Quran
71.14. He has created you in diverse (and successive) stages.
This verse may be interpreted to refer to the successive stages of the development of a fetus in its mother’s womb. However, it can also be interpreted to refer to the successive stages of the human evolution. The latter interpretation has support from the following verse, 6.2.
6.2. He is Who has created you from clay, then he spent a term of time (away from you), and (it is) a specific term he determined. Yet, you doubt (his ability)!.
In this verse, we know that God’s creation of life from clay (which is a combination of water and earth soil) happened first a long time ago. God then stayed away from his creation letting it evolve to interfere when He determined that it was time to interfere.
15:26 (Picktall) Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,
This verse gives a very specific description of the environment where life started. It refers to swamps where still water is combined with the earth soil, which creates stinking but smooth clay easy to take different forms.
This is exactly what biologists have come up with to explain the beginning of life on Earth.
71.17. And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth like plants.
This means that originally organisms started in earth, inside the stinking muddy swamps, then they left to the sea and to the surface of the earth, like plants which grow out of the earth to appear over its surface.
A related meaning is that Allah has (originally) planted humans and other organisms in earth and caused them to grow out of it like plants, which pass through different and successive metamorphosing stages from seeds to growing plants, then to the flowering stage, and ultimately to the death of the grown plants. However, life continues as the dying plants produce life in the form of seeds.
The stages of creation, from soil first and watery genetic materials from parents later, are mentioned in the following verse (18.7).
18.37 . His companion said to him, while arguing with him: Have you disbelieved in Him Who created you of the earth soil, then of a nutfah (union of a father’s sperm and a mother’s egg), then fashioned you into a man?
The two stages of creation are also mentioned in the following verse (35.11).
35.11 . Allah created you from the earth soil, then from a nutfah (union of a father’s sperm and a mother’s egg), then He made you pairs (or mates: males and females).
More specific description of the kind of clay the first creation happened, as was mentioned above in Verse 15.26, is also mentioned in the following verse (55.14) but with adding a new word, pottery.
55:14 (Picktall) He created man of clay like the potter's,
40:67 (Picktall) He it is Who created you from dust, then from a drop (of seed) then from a clot, then bringeth you forth as a child, then (ordaineth) that ye attain full strength and afterward that ye become old men though some among you die before and that ye reach an appointed term, that haply ye may understand.
82. 8. In whatever form (image) He willed, He put you together (assembled you).
14.19 . Have you not seen that Allah has created the heavens and the earth with the right proportions? If He wills, He can remove you and bring ( in your place ) a new creation .
10. 92. Today, We save you (Pharaoh of Egypt) through saving your body so that you may be a sign for those after you . Lo! Most people are heedless of Our signs.
17.49 . And they say : When we are bones and dust, are we going to be resurrected as a new creation?
the Quraish non-believers challenged the Prophet (saw) concerning the resurrection of humans in the Day of Judgment. They wondered how God can recreate humans to question them, after they had become bones and dust. God Almighty gave the Prophet the answer to their challenging question in the following two verses (17.50 and 17.51).
17.50. Say: (Yes, you will be resurrected even if) you are stones or iron.
17.51. Or a created matter, which is greater (or stronger than iron) in your minds.
30.22 . And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, as well as the difference of your languages and colors. In these, there are signs for people of knowledge.
now you do your math and let the truth speak for itself .
When the fetus reaches a degree of mental development that allows it tor receive information, God’s basic software is installed in it
. An angel blows part of God’s spirit in His new creation. This includes at least two programs. The first is shared with other living beings, in order to make the organs of an organism functioning internally and automatically. The second is unique to humans in that it allows humans to distinguish good from evil and consequently enables them to choose their actions.
This is a basic premise in the story of creating humans, as told by God (Praise to Him) in several chapters of the Holy Quran
71.14. He has created you in diverse (and successive) stages.
This verse may be interpreted to refer to the successive stages of the development of a fetus in its mother’s womb. However, it can also be interpreted to refer to the successive stages of the human evolution. The latter interpretation has support from the following verse, 6.2.
6.2. He is Who has created you from clay, then he spent a term of time (away from you), and (it is) a specific term he determined. Yet, you doubt (his ability)!.
In this verse, we know that God’s creation of life from clay (which is a combination of water and earth soil) happened first a long time ago. God then stayed away from his creation letting it evolve to interfere when He determined that it was time to interfere.
15:26 (Picktall) Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,
This verse gives a very specific description of the environment where life started. It refers to swamps where still water is combined with the earth soil, which creates stinking but smooth clay easy to take different forms.
This is exactly what biologists have come up with to explain the beginning of life on Earth.
71.17. And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth like plants.
This means that originally organisms started in earth, inside the stinking muddy swamps, then they left to the sea and to the surface of the earth, like plants which grow out of the earth to appear over its surface.
A related meaning is that Allah has (originally) planted humans and other organisms in earth and caused them to grow out of it like plants, which pass through different and successive metamorphosing stages from seeds to growing plants, then to the flowering stage, and ultimately to the death of the grown plants. However, life continues as the dying plants produce life in the form of seeds.
The stages of creation, from soil first and watery genetic materials from parents later, are mentioned in the following verse (18.7).
18.37 . His companion said to him, while arguing with him: Have you disbelieved in Him Who created you of the earth soil, then of a nutfah (union of a father’s sperm and a mother’s egg), then fashioned you into a man?
The two stages of creation are also mentioned in the following verse (35.11).
35.11 . Allah created you from the earth soil, then from a nutfah (union of a father’s sperm and a mother’s egg), then He made you pairs (or mates: males and females).
More specific description of the kind of clay the first creation happened, as was mentioned above in Verse 15.26, is also mentioned in the following verse (55.14) but with adding a new word, pottery.
55:14 (Picktall) He created man of clay like the potter's,
40:67 (Picktall) He it is Who created you from dust, then from a drop (of seed) then from a clot, then bringeth you forth as a child, then (ordaineth) that ye attain full strength and afterward that ye become old men though some among you die before and that ye reach an appointed term, that haply ye may understand.
82. 8. In whatever form (image) He willed, He put you together (assembled you).
14.19 . Have you not seen that Allah has created the heavens and the earth with the right proportions? If He wills, He can remove you and bring ( in your place ) a new creation .
10. 92. Today, We save you (Pharaoh of Egypt) through saving your body so that you may be a sign for those after you . Lo! Most people are heedless of Our signs.
17.49 . And they say : When we are bones and dust, are we going to be resurrected as a new creation?
the Quraish non-believers challenged the Prophet (saw) concerning the resurrection of humans in the Day of Judgment. They wondered how God can recreate humans to question them, after they had become bones and dust. God Almighty gave the Prophet the answer to their challenging question in the following two verses (17.50 and 17.51).
17.50. Say: (Yes, you will be resurrected even if) you are stones or iron.
17.51. Or a created matter, which is greater (or stronger than iron) in your minds.
30.22 . And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, as well as the difference of your languages and colors. In these, there are signs for people of knowledge.
now you do your math and let the truth speak for itself .
"...What didn't you find conflict between? Can you be more clear, and not beat around the bush?..."
Here this is what I had said....one can go back to the previous page and verify it...
"...Thus Darwin is merely trying to offer you a perspective based on his study of the marvels of this created order and these wondrous signs indicate and prove the existence of a Being possessed of some transcendent knowledge and supreme power save darwin is falling short of saying so..."
"...regardless I do not see any conflict between science discoveries and faith but the power of prayer transcends the power of science, if I may say so...."
and then I am asking you...
Do you see any conflict? if so then please let me know as to me Intellect and faith are not in conflict
Now all this is based on what I showed to support what I was questioning?
Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Brief Summary
Darwin's theory of evolution is based on five key observations and inferences drawn from them
These observations have been amply demonstrated in biology, and even fossils demonstrate the veracity of these observations.
To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;
1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.
Now this is what you are alleging..."By weighing your arguments/reasonings you clearly support, if not approve, darwin's theory, that all human race are from chimpanzee (You stated loud and clear).
Now let the readership judge what I said and what I did not....and then decide who is "beating around the bush"? and how does sitting in front of a computer seem so offensive to you? how do you operate? do you sit in any manner that is different?
Here this is what I had said....one can go back to the previous page and verify it...
"...Thus Darwin is merely trying to offer you a perspective based on his study of the marvels of this created order and these wondrous signs indicate and prove the existence of a Being possessed of some transcendent knowledge and supreme power save darwin is falling short of saying so..."
"...regardless I do not see any conflict between science discoveries and faith but the power of prayer transcends the power of science, if I may say so...."
and then I am asking you...
Do you see any conflict? if so then please let me know as to me Intellect and faith are not in conflict
Now all this is based on what I showed to support what I was questioning?
Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Brief Summary
Darwin's theory of evolution is based on five key observations and inferences drawn from them
These observations have been amply demonstrated in biology, and even fossils demonstrate the veracity of these observations.
To summarise Darwin's Theory of Evolution;
1. Variation: There is Variation in Every Population.
2. Competition: Organisms Compete for limited resources.
3. Offspring: Organisms produce more Offspring than can survive.
4. Genetics: Organisms pass Genetic traits on to their offspring.
5. Natural Selection: Those organisms with the Most Beneficial Traits are more likely to Survive and Reproduce.
Now this is what you are alleging..."By weighing your arguments/reasonings you clearly support, if not approve, darwin's theory, that all human race are from chimpanzee (You stated loud and clear).
Now let the readership judge what I said and what I did not....and then decide who is "beating around the bush"? and how does sitting in front of a computer seem so offensive to you? how do you operate? do you sit in any manner that is different?
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
brother haroon if you ask me personally i do agree with what quran says...
1] life first started in water
2] then from water , the creatures adjusted themselves on earth[walking/crawling]
but what is interesting is that allah said human being is made of water, which ofcourse is true...but did allah[swt] meant that he was made in stages ??
thats the most important question !
if the answer is yes !, then case is solved my dear watson
1] life first started in water
2] then from water , the creatures adjusted themselves on earth[walking/crawling]
but what is interesting is that allah said human being is made of water, which ofcourse is true...but did allah[swt] meant that he was made in stages ??
thats the most important question !
if the answer is yes !, then case is solved my dear watson
Virani, for the most part what you are saying is okay....now kindly tie what you have just said to what you had questioned earlier on...and to which Haroon like a man about to drown, tried to hold onto the straw you offered out of sheer deperateness...this is what you asked...
"..if both brother haroon_adel and sister znanwalla denounce darwins theory , i would like to ask you both to prove DAS -AVATAR [ismaili interpretation] in your own words please !..."
Now in my previous post I have offered clarification in absolute terms as to what I said and did not say....show me if I had "denounced" Darwin's theory? show me the connection now with the das Avtar concept...tie this up for us all to understand what you are actually trying to say?
"..if both brother haroon_adel and sister znanwalla denounce darwins theory , i would like to ask you both to prove DAS -AVATAR [ismaili interpretation] in your own words please !..."
Now in my previous post I have offered clarification in absolute terms as to what I said and did not say....show me if I had "denounced" Darwin's theory? show me the connection now with the das Avtar concept...tie this up for us all to understand what you are actually trying to say?
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haroon_adel
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
- Location: USA
Brother shiraz. There's no doubt that one should not accept what is in the Qur'an. That's what I've been trying to say. I probably don't have as much knowledge as you about the Qur'an, but believe, it's mentioned that Adam was created from water and soil. Then Awa was created from his right side.shiraz.virani wrote:brother haroon if you ask me personally i do agree with what quran says...
1] life first started in water
2] then from water , the creatures adjusted themselves on earth[walking/crawling]
but what is interesting is that allah said human being is made of water, which ofcourse is true...but did allah[swt] meant that he was made in stages ??
thats the most important question !
if the answer is yes !, then case is solved my dear watson
Sister Zanwallah: I never dis-agreed with you regarding Intellect/science being in conflict with Qur'an/Islam/Faith. All I'm trying to emphasize is that Human race can not evolve from some sort of chimpanzee.
For example, if you keep a chimpanzee not matter how long, the chimpanzee will not transofrm into something else! Samething, human beings have been on this earth for a very long time, and their race haven't transformed (as darwin claims) to any other race so far.
Brother shiraz, Qur'an can be interpreted by everyone differently. Do you not agree? You stated very nicely that the creation could be in stages, and that's a very good point. But, most Muslims (main-stream) believes that first Adam was created from water+soil, and then God give into him the soul and asked Malahek (including Satan [Shaitaan]) to do "Saj-e-dah" for the Adam. And then Satan refused, and I guess you know the story.
So, only in this part, I see that darwin's theory is in conflict what majority of Muslims belive.
"...Sister Zanwallah: I never dis-agreed with you regarding Intellect/science being in conflict with Qur'an/Islam/Faith. All I'm trying to emphasize is that Human race can not evolve from some sort of chimpanzee...."
Please show me if I have conflicted with you on this point anywhere in my discourse? how can I ? I have no basis so to speak to claim how an evolement may have happened or is happening ? Allah knows best ! HE is the Creator and the best of all Creators ! I cannot make any felicitous claims of this nature...so you agree you jumped on me unfairly and maybe you misunderstood...and so you calling me a whore was totally unjust....right?
Please show me if I have conflicted with you on this point anywhere in my discourse? how can I ? I have no basis so to speak to claim how an evolement may have happened or is happening ? Allah knows best ! HE is the Creator and the best of all Creators ! I cannot make any felicitous claims of this nature...so you agree you jumped on me unfairly and maybe you misunderstood...and so you calling me a whore was totally unjust....right?
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
sister znanwalla said :
you dont have to worry about brother haroon....as i said last time, my views does not represent any sect, hence you are free to believe what you want and brother haroon is free to believe what he wants to !
neither iam saving anybody nor iam drowing anybody so stop bad mouthing my brothers and sisters.
and i never said whether i do support dus avatar or i dont so please stop igniting fire !!
Virani, for the most part what you are saying is okay....now kindly tie what you have just said to what you had questioned earlier on...and to which Haroon like a man about to drown, tried to hold onto the straw you offered out of sheer deperateness...this is what you asked...
"..if both brother haroon_adel and sister znanwalla denounce darwins theory , i would like to ask you both to prove DAS -AVATAR [ismaili interpretation] in your own words please !..."
Now in my previous post I have offered clarification in absolute terms as to what I said and did not say....show me if I had "denounced" Darwin's theory? show me the connection now with the das Avtar concept...tie this up for us all to understand what you are actually trying to say?
you dont have to worry about brother haroon....as i said last time, my views does not represent any sect, hence you are free to believe what you want and brother haroon is free to believe what he wants to !
neither iam saving anybody nor iam drowing anybody so stop bad mouthing my brothers and sisters.
and i never said whether i do support dus avatar or i dont so please stop igniting fire !!
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haroon_adel
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:55 am
- Location: USA
I didn't not jump on you or anyone. You asked a question and it needed that tone of a language. If you can't remember your own question, then I suggest you go back to you post and re-read your own question out loud and see which kind of answer you see fit, and my answer wan't unjust to your question, sister! As a matter of fact, your question was unjust.znanwalla wrote: ...so you agree you jumped on me unfairly and maybe you misunderstood...and so you calling me a whore was totally unjust....right?