Ismaili Males with earrings

Ty786 · Post by **Ty786** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:14 am

My son who is ismaili wnats his ear pierced adnd says it todays'style' what your view onthis subject.I really dont think men should have any piercing.What do you think.

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:26 am

Well, if you are really following Islam, then Islam says that peircing into any part of the body is not ok whether its man or woman. so we should also stop girls to do that as well. but we allow them. Yes i know thats not good but what would be the better thing is to make ur son a knowledgeable man and make him learn ismailism and its spirituality. if some day he understands that then he would follow a right path towards good deeds. so let him do what he want, unless its prohibited like sex before marriage etc. but if u say no to him, he would do that anyways so why dont we understand them and teach them humbly what is right and wrong and please give references whatever u say bcz todays generation believe in what they see. Best of luck

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:21 pm

naushad25 wrote:Well, if you are really following Islam, then Islam says that peircing into any part of the body is not ok whether its man or woman. so we should also stop girls to do that as well. but we allow them. Yes i know thats not good but what would be the better thing is to make ur son a knowledgeable man and make him learn ismailism and its spirituality. if some day he understands that then he would follow a right path towards good deeds. so let him do what he want, unless its prohibited like sex before marriage etc. but if u say no to him, he would do that anyways so why dont we understand them and teach them humbly what is right and wrong and please give references whatever u say bcz todays generation believe in what they see. Best of luck

When you say "then Islam says that peircing into any part of the body is not ok whether its man or woman"

What/who do you mean by "Islam"? Do you mean Qur'aan? Do you mean Hadis? Or do you mean those Mullah and Mawlawis?

@Ty786:

What do you think about this? I guess you have the answer to this yourself. If you think it's ok, then I guess it's ok; but if you think it's wrong, then you know it already that it's wrong.

In western society there's lots of things that are style/way of living/etc..., especially among young generation. Piercing is one of them. Where are you from originally, and where are you living now? Most of the Ismailis that are living in the western society, like U.S./Canada/or Europ, are originally from eastern world, such as Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, African countries, and etc. So, if you are from one of these eastern countries, then was it a style back then to pierce your ear? I guess not. So, if it wasn't a style back then, it shouldn't be a style now either. Hazir Imam has always emphasizes that we should keep our culture and tradition. If you think, its find piercing, then it's up to you.

In short, I guess you have the answer. I personally think that piercing is not good for guys, but that's me. It's ok for some others, and that's fine too.

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:49 pm

Ty786 wrote:My son who is ismaili wnats his ear pierced adnd says it todays'style' what your view onthis subject.I really dont think men should have any piercing.What do you think.

I would say that you should not allow your son for piercing, because first of all piercing is only belong to the women, secondly from male who gets piercing is only the queer people... but unfortunatly because of the growing of modernity in the WESTERN, now days regular people get pierce... It is not a good idea in my opinion and one should be-careful of this illusion world.... I have a question why does your son want to get pierce? if you say because of style, but style has nothing with this..... Most youngsters want to get pierce because of impressing others like showing off but it can lead them astray at the end.....

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:08 pm

From_Alamut wrote:
Ty786 wrote:My son who is ismaili wnats his ear pierced adnd says it todays'style' what your view onthis subject.I really dont think men should have any piercing.What do you think.
I would say that you should not allow your son for piercing, because first of all piercing is only belong to the women, secondly from male who gets piercing is only the queer people... but unfortunatly because of the growing of modernity in the WESTERN, now days regular people get pierce... It is not a good idea in my opinion and one should be-careful of this illusion world.... I have a question why does your son want to get pierce? if you say because of style, but style has nothing with this..... Most youngsters want to get pierce because of impressing others like showing off but it can lead them astray at the end.....

where do you get this info from???

ever hear all work and no play make jack a dull boy...

it's an earring.....if you give your son a little freedom - he'll realize that you're flexible on a few things and not rebel so much......what if he shows up with his ear pierced..what are you going to do then?
or wait till he's 18..and do it anyway..and what will happen to your relationship with him then?

shams

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:02 am

Well, different scholars have different believes on that. Some says its permissible and others say that its not bcz ur playing with Allah's creation and beauty that is given to human beings. if u r saying ur enhancing, then u can do it without piercing, bcz ur giving pain to ur body so in my idea, i would say no to it.

Another impt thing is scholars always refer verses saying that its permissible to women only and only in ears and no other part. but for men, its not permissible at all. Rest is ur idea but u can't say no directly to ur son and u have to give instructions to him abt it so that he can understand u.

AsadALLAH · Post by **AsadALLAH** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:31 am

Let him do it (Depends how old he is)

If he wants it then let him get it. The thing about earring's & ear piercing's is that if he doesn't like it he can always let the hole close.

I had 3 earings when i was a teenager and even got a tattoo...Trust me, i would rather let him get an earing then a tattoo.

All this Quran saying that you shouldn't do this and that is all bunch of bull. All these saying are prolly by abu bakr or omar.

I know were not supposed to do what the Imam and his family does and do what he tells us to do...Why does Princess Zahra wear earings then?

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:37 am

naushad25 wrote:Well, different scholars have different believes on that. Some says its permissible and others say that its not bcz ur playing with Allah's creation and beauty that is given to human beings. if u r saying ur enhancing, then u can do it without piercing, bcz ur giving pain to ur body so in my idea, i would say no to it.

Another impt thing is scholars always refer verses saying that its permissible to women only and only in ears and no other part. but for men, its not permissible at all. Rest is ur idea but u can't say no directly to ur son and u have to give instructions to him abt it so that he can understand u.

I think only you understand yoruself, because other, I don't think they have any idea what you are trying to say. What it is that you are trying to lecture? Scolar, Allah's creation, Islam, this... that...

You didn't answer my question. Why? You don't have any answer to it?

What verses are you talking about? You surely show that you have no clue what you are talking about. So, I advise you to not say anything. After all, it's best to shutup than say something stupid.

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:52 am

oh god this is one dam fighter.. i dont want to fight a child .. so go and google ur self about piercing acc to islam and u will find lots of material on that... plz do this spelling mistakes in ur school not here.

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:54 am

bro, please dont fight and spell check. ur sounding like english spell checker in MS word. lolz think abt what is written here. no one is saying anything abt it..its just u who have english problem so better to take classes of british english which is pure english.. not american

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:58 am

for ur kind information, we dont use complete spellings here bcz we are discussing topic on ismailism not english so i feel sorry for u but u will grow with time and with class in ur school

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:02 am

naushad25 wrote:bro, please dont fight and spell check. ur sounding like english spell checker in MS word. lolz think abt what is written here. no one is saying anything abt it..its just u who have english problem so better to take classes of british english which is pure english.. not american

I am sure no one has any idea what you are talking about. BTW, did you take your medications this morning? I guess not.

What spell check what english. You sure are the dumbest one I've ever seen.

naushad25 wrote:for ur kind information, we dont use complete spellings here bcz we are discussing topic on ismailism not english so i feel sorry for u but u will grow with time and with class in ur school

Who says we don't use complete information? You Mulah or Mawlawi? Under all circumstances, its best practice to use readable and understandable english, so other persons get the message correctly. English/spell check was/is not the topic of the conversation, anyways. So, not sure why you are mumbling this way. You sure are crazy. LOL...

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:26 am

What spell check what english. You sure are the dumbest one I've ever seen.

...

why dont u see ur face every day.. u will find one... lolzz

ur only one who is polluting these fora.. plz dont start rubbish topics as u always do... no one is interested.. thats why no one is answering.. but i m trying to take out some garbage from ur mind and still ur not interested so have fun with it.. u dont have any clue what ru saying abt these things

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:31 am

naushad25 wrote:What spell check what english. You sure are the dumbest one I've ever seen.

...

why dont u see ur face every day.. u will find one... lolzz

ur only one who is polluting these fora.. plz dont start rubbish topics as u always do... no one is interested.. thats why no one is answering.. but i m trying to take out some garbage from ur mind and still ur not interested so have fun with it.. u dont have any clue what ru saying abt these things

Can you read at all? Open your eyes and check. I didn't start this thread. Someone else did. It's you who's poluting others thread. So, don't say anything if you don't have anything meaningful. So shutup, and say no more. It's all crap anyway what you are saying. It's all your mulah and mawlawi's thaughts anyways. I know you. you are one of those pakistani fundamentals who has idealogy like talibans. You emphasize on those stupid double-standard fundamentalist idealogy. I don't think you are in the right place. You are not welcome here. Take your garbage somewhere else, pal.

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:34 am

seriously, do u have any thing to do apart from commenting on someones post and not just sommenting, ur just not taking anything from this fora. ur just passing ur time here.. please cool down. its not good. May Maula give u guidance. Ameen

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:37 am

dont u dare to say anything abt me and my concepts.. ok. Ask ur self and then teach others. u have no right to comment on Pakistan or anything. I can also say this to u. U think ur american. no dear frnd. if something happen there. u ppl are kicked by them ans still u serve them like they are ur gods. just bcz of dollars... oh god. for god sake, open ur eyes and grow up.. if u dont understand something that doesnt mean that u make rubish comments abt anyone. u shud be immediately banned.

haroon_adel · Post by **haroon_adel** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:38 am

naushad25 wrote:seriously, do u have any thing to do apart from commenting on someones post and not just sommenting, ur just not taking anything from this fora. ur just passing ur time here.. please cool down. its not good. May Maula give u guidance. Ameen

What about yourself? Speak for yourself. You are doing even worst. You are giving wrong and incorrect advise. It's worst than anything else you can do. You are mis-leading. Don't do any du'a for me, your du'a doesn't work anyways. Ask for guidance from Maula for yourself, I think you need it more than I do.

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:46 am

Ok. no worries. May Maula give us guidance. Ameen

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:37 pm

AsadALLAH wrote:Let him do it (Depends how old he is)

If he wants it then let him get it. The thing about earring's & ear piercing's is that if he doesn't like it he can always let the hole close.

I had 3 earings when i was a teenager and even got a tattoo...Trust me, i would rather let him get an earing then a tattoo.

All this Quran saying that you shouldn't do this and that is all bunch of bull. All these saying are prolly by abu bakr or omar.

I know were not supposed to do what the Imam and his family does and do what he tells us to do...Why does Princess Zahra wear earings then?

Prince Rahim had an earring at one point in time too!

Pir in Ginan when referring to the Imam at the time of Aswari says:

"Tene Kaane Kundal Mughat Shobe, Tilak Tundal Bhandshe"

Kaane Kundal???

Shams

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:16 pm

ShamsB wrote:
From_Alamut wrote:
Ty786 wrote:My son who is ismaili wnats his ear pierced adnd says it todays'style' what your view onthis subject.I really dont think men should have any piercing.What do you think.
I would say that you should not allow your son for piercing, because first of all piercing is only belong to the women, secondly from male who gets piercing is only the queer people... but unfortunatly because of the growing of modernity in the WESTERN, now days regular people get pierce... It is not a good idea in my opinion and one should be-careful of this illusion world.... I have a question why does your son want to get pierce? if you say because of style, but style has nothing with this..... Most youngsters want to get pierce because of impressing others like showing off but it can lead them astray at the end.....

where do you get this info from???

ever hear all work and no play make jack a dull boy...

it's an earring.....if you give your son a little freedom - he'll realize that you're flexible on a few things and not rebel so much......what if he shows up with his ear pierced..what are you going to do then?
or wait till he's 18..and do it anyway..and what will happen to your relationship with him then?

shams

Well Shams, whatever you said in above that is your opinion.... What i told you or mention in the above that was my opinion... When I talk from opinion, I do not search for info.... For me all these stupid things which you play with your secular body is illusion.... I am more involve into spiritualism then materialism...... It is better not to waste your time than in waste. I do not agree with you by giving your son such freedom for piercing his ear..WHAT!...Why not teach him Quran, Farman, Qasida or wisdom...... Maybe Shams when you Inshallah have sons then give him what ever he wants even give him extra pierce .... WE DO WHAT ALLAH, OUR PROPHET MOHAMMAD (ASA) AND OUR BELOVED IMAMS(as) LOVES AND WE REJECT WHAT THEY DISLIKE..............

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:00 am

From_Alamut wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
From_Alamut wrote: I would say that you should not allow your son for piercing, because first of all piercing is only belong to the women, secondly from male who gets piercing is only the queer people... but unfortunatly because of the growing of modernity in the WESTERN, now days regular people get pierce... It is not a good idea in my opinion and one should be-careful of this illusion world.... I have a question why does your son want to get pierce? if you say because of style, but style has nothing with this..... Most youngsters want to get pierce because of impressing others like showing off but it can lead them astray at the end.....

where do you get this info from???

ever hear all work and no play make jack a dull boy...

it's an earring.....if you give your son a little freedom - he'll realize that you're flexible on a few things and not rebel so much......what if he shows up with his ear pierced..what are you going to do then?
or wait till he's 18..and do it anyway..and what will happen to your relationship with him then?

shams
Well Shams, whatever you said in above that is your opinion.... What i told you or mention in the above that was my opinion... When I talk from opinion, I do not search for info.... For me all these stupid things which you play with your secular body is illusion.... I am more involve into spiritualism then materialism...... It is better not to waste your time than in waste. I do not agree with you by giving your son such freedom for piercing his ear..WHAT!...Why not teach him Quran, Farman, Qasida or wisdom...... Maybe Shams when you Inshallah have sons then give him what ever he wants even give him extra pierce .... WE DO WHAT ALLAH, OUR PROPHET MOHAMMAD (ASA) AND OUR BELOVED IMAMS(as) LOVES AND WE REJECT WHAT THEY DISLIKE..............

If it's all about spiritualism for you..then why does tattoos and piercings matter...
your body is physical..really doesn't matter in the long run...
isn't this an oxymoronic statement to make? you're contradicting yourself...
spiritualism on the one hand..but being rigid on the other hand....
by tightening the noose on your child..you risk losing him in the long term..
he's more likely to rebel if not allowed small freedoms...it's a tradeoff.

shams

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:38 am

ShamsB wrote:
From_Alamut wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
where do you get this info from???

ever hear all work and no play make jack a dull boy...

it's an earring.....if you give your son a little freedom - he'll realize that you're flexible on a few things and not rebel so much......what if he shows up with his ear pierced..what are you going to do then?
or wait till he's 18..and do it anyway..and what will happen to your relationship with him then?

shams
Well Shams, whatever you said in above that is your opinion.... What i told you or mention in the above that was my opinion... When I talk from opinion, I do not search for info.... For me all these stupid things which you play with your secular body is illusion.... I am more involve into spiritualism then materialism...... It is better not to waste your time than in waste. I do not agree with you by giving your son such freedom for piercing his ear..WHAT!...Why not teach him Quran, Farman, Qasida or wisdom...... Maybe Shams when you Inshallah have sons then give him what ever he wants even give him extra pierce .... WE DO WHAT ALLAH, OUR PROPHET MOHAMMAD (ASA) AND OUR BELOVED IMAMS(as) LOVES AND WE REJECT WHAT THEY DISLIKE..............
If it's all about spiritualism for you..then why does tattoos and piercings matter...
your body is physical..really doesn't matter in the long run...
isn't this an oxymoronic statement to make? you're contradicting yourself...
spiritualism on the one hand..but being rigid on the other hand....
by tightening the noose on your child..you risk losing him in the long term..
he's more likely to rebel if not allowed small freedoms...it's a tradeoff.

shams

Remember spiritualism is about your inner purification.....the matter about tattoos and piercing is a big deal, think about this...... When you first time psychically born in this secular world, you were born pure and clean as water... So why leave this world dirty as sinner by getting involve with tattoo and piercing ..You know what type of people are involved into these things, they are gangsters, criminals, rappers, rockers, Amercian bikers, thief etc... these things can surely misguide them...

ShamsB remember you might born in these western country or maybe you immigrated there but I am sure you following these western culture.
We can have agreement or disagreement but we respect each other...

ShamsB you said if we don't allow our son for these worldly things like tattoos or piercing, then they will rebel.....but you know where all these things coming from? It is all coming from the behavior of the parents..REMEMBER EDUCATION FIRST COME FROM PARENTS... If we threat our children well and show to them what is bad and what is good of course they will never think about these tattoos and piercing. Obviously, these things are bad........ Only those blind people who love this illusion world will love these world and these things......... In my country these things are forbidding and even in Islam and in particular Ismailism......

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:04 am

From_Alamut wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
From_Alamut wrote: Well Shams, whatever you said in above that is your opinion.... What i told you or mention in the above that was my opinion... When I talk from opinion, I do not search for info.... For me all these stupid things which you play with your secular body is illusion.... I am more involve into spiritualism then materialism...... It is better not to waste your time than in waste. I do not agree with you by giving your son such freedom for piercing his ear..WHAT!...Why not teach him Quran, Farman, Qasida or wisdom...... Maybe Shams when you Inshallah have sons then give him what ever he wants even give him extra pierce .... WE DO WHAT ALLAH, OUR PROPHET MOHAMMAD (ASA) AND OUR BELOVED IMAMS(as) LOVES AND WE REJECT WHAT THEY DISLIKE..............
If it's all about spiritualism for you..then why does tattoos and piercings matter...
your body is physical..really doesn't matter in the long run...
isn't this an oxymoronic statement to make? you're contradicting yourself...
spiritualism on the one hand..but being rigid on the other hand....
by tightening the noose on your child..you risk losing him in the long term..
he's more likely to rebel if not allowed small freedoms...it's a tradeoff.

shams
Remember spiritualism is about your inner purification.....the matter about tattoos and piercing is a big deal, think about this...... When you first time psychically born in this secular world, you were born pure and clean as water... So why leave this world dirty as sinner by getting involve with tattoo and piercing ..You know what type of people are involved into these things, they are gangsters, criminals, rappers, rockers, Amercian bikers, thief etc... these things can surely misguide them...

ShamsB remember you might born in these western country or maybe you immigrated there but I am sure you following these western culture.
We can have agreement or disagreement but we respect each other...

ShamsB you said if we don't allow our son for these worldly things like tattoos or piercing, then they will rebel.....but you know where all these things coming from? It is all coming from the behavior of the parents..REMEMBER EDUCATION FIRST COME FROM PARENTS... If we threat our children well and show to them what is bad and what is good of course they will never think about these tattoos and piercing. Obviously, these things are bad........ Only those blind people who love this illusion world will love these world and these things......... In my country these things are forbidding and even in Islam and in particular Ismailism......

Then we should all move back to Pakistan and Afghanistan and send our sons to Madrassahs based upon your logic. I'd rather have a son that has a tattoo or a piercing which allows him to express his individuality and come share his issues and his life with me..because I am opening myself up to a different perspective...and one who does things out of love..like go to Jamat Khana...then one who was forced to come to JK, not allowed any freedoms, moved out at age 18, changed faith and has not come to Jamat Khana since - not even for Darbar or a family funeral.
And both were educated well. ...
I've seen both happen...within my own family - having raised 2 of my own into young adulthood 20+ now...in the western world..one has to learn how to adopt...like our faith..we have to be fluid and flexible...we can't be like our forefathers...and force folks to do something.
I've seen other kids in my family that were not allowed the basic freedoms go astray...seen them lie...even get tattoos in places where parents would not check.
We are not living in a police state - or a taliban state...i've known kids who to express their faith have had Ali or Allah tattooeed on their hands...

in our faith..the body is not important..we have to take care of it yes..but everyone's got differing views on how to do it...you have yours..others have theirs.
btw..Prince Rahim used to have an earring...if you read the ginans...and you study history..you'll see that in our past history..in the indopak culture..men used to have earrings as well..the ear lobe has nerve endings which when pressed correctly are good for meditation.

Shams

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:32 am

I respect your comments, but i would like to say one thing respectfully and humbly. If we follow islamic rules or understand it and use it to correct our lives, that doesn't mean that we are following talibans. Please, i would like to clear it that talibanisation is not islam. Please donot connect our islamic principles to talibans. They are not muslims and are not not following islam from any side. they are just using it. So, if some one gives us any islamic rule acc to islam, prophet, imam or quran then we should take it as true muslims and not to go for talibans or whatever. And please don't interprete wrong perceptions about pakistan and afghanistan bcz still maximum ismailis live in pakistan and we need to creat a bridge and harmony among people rather than making such comments that all afghanis are terrorists or whatever. we need to understand that still pakistan ismailis are best at our religion. they are, masha allah, successful there. Please don't make wrong image of our brothers and sisters in you children's mind because we have to work alot for the betterment of this world and that is called pluralism. When maula came to the University of Cambridge, he said to students that He is very happy with the council memebers of Karachi Council because each and every member there has a religious tertiary religious education which is unique tin the world. you can't imagine how happy was Maula when he was saying this. I can't express it. So this country is very very important and we need to creat a good image of our brothers and sisters.  The thing to discuss here is what to do with today's generation. We need to strengthen their faiths and believes upon ismailism. We have a clear example of Maula. We are constantly giving examples of Prince Rahim and still not taking it. See, Maula is a father also. He must have said something to prince but didnt force him to not to pierce. We have to do the same as well. We need to teach our chldren acc to ismailism and quran but dn't ever say these words like taliban or terrorism infront of them bcz it can creat a totally wrong perception of islam and then ismailism. Just try to be friendly and teach what is right and wrong and let them do what they want. See how prince rahim is helping Maula in every cause so it means that one day every child would get it right. We have to make friendly relations with young ones so that there is no, what is called, generation gap between them and us. Always going to religion and quran sometimes creat wrong perception on young generation who are not use to it in this society and they would certainly think that what is this all. I hope i have not said any thing wrong here as this is not a religious issue but a social and individualistic one. I hope no one minds on my post. Thank you

AsadALLAH · Post by **AsadALLAH** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:43 pm

I have a red and green tattoo of ALLAH on my arm and i love it. Proud of having the name of my Imam on my arm.

People thought i was some crazy rough kid growing up. I had 3 earings and a tattoo and people thought i was a druggie. I was going Khane almost everyday wearing uniform and doing seva and even drove Khane bus once a week. But my Faith was strong (Shukar) and always prayed to our Mowla to keep my Faith strong in you.

What i'm trying to say is...Wearing an earing/s and having a tattoo doesn't make you a bad person. You are who you are and like the post above saying "We don't live in a taliban world"

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:06 pm

ShamsB wrote:
From_Alamut wrote:
ShamsB wrote: If it's all about spiritualism for you..then why does tattoos and piercings matter...
your body is physical..really doesn't matter in the long run...
isn't this an oxymoronic statement to make? you're contradicting yourself...
spiritualism on the one hand..but being rigid on the other hand....
by tightening the noose on your child..you risk losing him in the long term..
he's more likely to rebel if not allowed small freedoms...it's a tradeoff.

shams
Remember spiritualism is about your inner purification.....the matter about tattoos and piercing is a big deal, think about this...... When you first time psychically born in this secular world, you were born pure and clean as water... So why leave this world dirty as sinner by getting involve with tattoo and piercing ..You know what type of people are involved into these things, they are gangsters, criminals, rappers, rockers, Amercian bikers, thief etc... these things can surely misguide them...

ShamsB remember you might born in these western country or maybe you immigrated there but I am sure you following these western culture.
We can have agreement or disagreement but we respect each other...

ShamsB you said if we don't allow our son for these worldly things like tattoos or piercing, then they will rebel.....but you know where all these things coming from? It is all coming from the behavior of the parents..REMEMBER EDUCATION FIRST COME FROM PARENTS... If we threat our children well and show to them what is bad and what is good of course they will never think about these tattoos and piercing. Obviously, these things are bad........ Only those blind people who love this illusion world will love these world and these things......... In my country these things are forbidding and even in Islam and in particular Ismailism......
Then we should all move back to Pakistan and Afghanistan and send our sons to Madrassahs based upon your logic. I'd rather have a son that has a tattoo or a piercing which allows him to express his individuality and come share his issues and his life with me..because I am opening myself up to a different perspective...and one who does things out of love..like go to Jamat Khana...then one who was forced to come to JK, not allowed any freedoms, moved out at age 18, changed faith and has not come to Jamat Khana since - not even for Darbar or a family funeral.
And both were educated well. ...
I've seen both happen...within my own family - having raised 2 of my own into young adulthood 20+ now...in the western world..one has to learn how to adopt...like our faith..we have to be fluid and flexible...we can't be like our forefathers...and force folks to do something.
I've seen other kids in my family that were not allowed the basic freedoms go astray...seen them lie...even get tattoos in places where parents would not check.
We are not living in a police state - or a taliban state...i've known kids who to express their faith have had Ali or Allah tattooeed on their hands...

in our faith..the body is not important..we have to take care of it yes..but everyone's got differing views on how to do it...you have yours..others have theirs.
btw..Prince Rahim used to have an earring...if you read the ginans...and you study history..you'll see that in our past history..in the indopak culture..men used to have earrings as well..the ear lobe has nerve endings which when pressed correctly are good for meditation.

Shams

I really respect your opinion Shams, but I disagree with you. First of all, I am a young man and not married yet.... I don't have that experience of those children that you do. I just gave you the example of my own younger brother, who has 3 pierce in his ears. He well actually didn't like these things at first, but he comes up with these idea through hanging out with these guys at school who are wearing earring.... He used to wear proper clothes, speak the truth, always do his homeworks, go to JamatKhana.......... But now days, he changed a lot. He come home late at night and he wake up late in the morning. He lost his respect for his older and does not speak the truth. He doesn't go to JamatKhana nor he is doing well in school, but always going school late in the morning and his teachers always complain of him...He spend so much money on jewel earring and some bling bling....He wears new pair of earring per days and wearing new pair of clothes a day...... He is got involved with rap&hhp music and now acting like 2pac.... So what kind of life is that ShamB? For how long he keep being like this...... and now you call it freedom.... Is that what you really mean by freedom... That is what freedom my parents give him the way you mention in the above.

We are not living in a police state - or a taliban state...i've known kids who to express their faith have had Ali or Allah tattooeed on their hands...

But remember our identity that we are a MUSLIM...... not only Taliban are muslim.... they are just a common assassin.... To become a Muslim, you have to surround yourself to the well of ALLAH......... Well, about tattoos it is not require that you put their holy names in your bodies and then later on commit such deadly sin....... Why not busy our tongue through remembering Allah and his holy divine names than putting his names on our dirty body through tattoos then commit sin and give Allah bad name......Please have some respect for those beautiful names.

btw..Prince Rahim used to have an earring...if you read the ginans...and you study history..you'll see that in our past history..in the indopak culture..men used to have earrings as well..the ear lobe has nerve endings which when pressed correctly are good for meditation.

Remember that we have nothing to do with Noorani family i.e Prince Rahim had piercing... We are only following the teaching and Farman of our Beloved Hazar Imam.... If you say so, Prince Rahim has piercing so why not my son then you should follow Prince Amyn example too that he was single and didn't married... I would say that you don't get marry too if you think in that way..... Please don't talk about Noorani family or show us any example..... Show us example of their hard working toward the institution so that we may can make them an example for our children future and later on work with our Kudavan Hazar Imam....

Well.... ShamB... I am belong to Pir Nasir Khusraw (ra) tradition and my ancestor were converted into Shia Ismailism Islam at return of Pir Nasir Khusraw back to Khurasan from Egypt.....

About earring, in my opinion, these things such as men wearing earring in indo-pak tradition well, that was before Islam and those people were Hindus... Now days those people who accepted Islam, I don't think so that they are wearing earring in present time, except those youngers who watch too much Shah Rukh Khan movies....

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:23 am

From_Alamut wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
From_Alamut wrote: Remember spiritualism is about your inner purification.....the matter about tattoos and piercing is a big deal, think about this...... When you first time psychically born in this secular world, you were born pure and clean as water... So why leave this world dirty as sinner by getting involve with tattoo and piercing ..You know what type of people are involved into these things, they are gangsters, criminals, rappers, rockers, Amercian bikers, thief etc... these things can surely misguide them...

ShamsB remember you might born in these western country or maybe you immigrated there but I am sure you following these western culture.
We can have agreement or disagreement but we respect each other...

ShamsB you said if we don't allow our son for these worldly things like tattoos or piercing, then they will rebel.....but you know where all these things coming from? It is all coming from the behavior of the parents..REMEMBER EDUCATION FIRST COME FROM PARENTS... If we threat our children well and show to them what is bad and what is good of course they will never think about these tattoos and piercing. Obviously, these things are bad........ Only those blind people who love this illusion world will love these world and these things......... In my country these things are forbidding and even in Islam and in particular Ismailism......
Then we should all move back to Pakistan and Afghanistan and send our sons to Madrassahs based upon your logic. I'd rather have a son that has a tattoo or a piercing which allows him to express his individuality and come share his issues and his life with me..because I am opening myself up to a different perspective...and one who does things out of love..like go to Jamat Khana...then one who was forced to come to JK, not allowed any freedoms, moved out at age 18, changed faith and has not come to Jamat Khana since - not even for Darbar or a family funeral.
And both were educated well. ...
I've seen both happen...within my own family - having raised 2 of my own into young adulthood 20+ now...in the western world..one has to learn how to adopt...like our faith..we have to be fluid and flexible...we can't be like our forefathers...and force folks to do something.
I've seen other kids in my family that were not allowed the basic freedoms go astray...seen them lie...even get tattoos in places where parents would not check.
We are not living in a police state - or a taliban state...i've known kids who to express their faith have had Ali or Allah tattooeed on their hands...

in our faith..the body is not important..we have to take care of it yes..but everyone's got differing views on how to do it...you have yours..others have theirs.
btw..Prince Rahim used to have an earring...if you read the ginans...and you study history..you'll see that in our past history..in the indopak culture..men used to have earrings as well..the ear lobe has nerve endings which when pressed correctly are good for meditation.

Shams
I really respect your opinion Shams, but I disagree with you. First of all, I am a young man and not married yet.... I don't have that experience of those children that you do. I just gave you the example of my own younger brother, who has 3 pierce in his ears. He well actually didn't like these things at first, but he comes up with these idea through hanging out with these guys at school who are wearing earring.... He used to wear proper clothes, speak the truth, always do his homeworks, go to JamatKhana.......... But now days, he changed a lot. He come home late at night and he wake up late in the morning. He lost his respect for his older and does not speak the truth. He doesn't go to JamatKhana nor he is doing well in school, but always going school late in the morning and his teachers always complain of him...He spend so much money on jewel earring and some bling bling....He wears new pair of earring per days and wearing new pair of clothes a day...... He is got involved with rap&hhp music and now acting like 2pac.... So what kind of life is that ShamB? For how long he keep being like this...... and now you call it freedom.... Is that what you really mean by freedom... That is what freedom my parents give him the way you mention in the above.

We are not living in a police state - or a taliban state...i've known kids who to express their faith have had Ali or Allah tattooeed on their hands...
But remember our identity that we are a MUSLIM...... not only Taliban are muslim.... they are just a common assassin.... To become a Muslim, you have to surround yourself to the well of ALLAH......... Well, about tattoos it is not require that you put their holy names in your bodies and then later on commit such deadly sin....... Why not busy our tongue through remembering Allah and his holy divine names than putting his names on our dirty body through tattoos then commit sin and give Allah bad name......Please have some respect for those beautiful names.

btw..Prince Rahim used to have an earring...if you read the ginans...and you study history..you'll see that in our past history..in the indopak culture..men used to have earrings as well..the ear lobe has nerve endings which when pressed correctly are good for meditation.
Remember that we have nothing to do with Noorani family i.e Prince Rahim had piercing... We are only following the teaching and Farman of our Beloved Hazar Imam.... If you say so, Prince Rahim has piercing so why not my son then you should follow Prince Amyn example too that he was single and didn't married... I would say that you don't get marry too if you think in that way..... Please don't talk about Noorani family or show us any example..... Show us example of their hard working toward the institution so that we may can make them an example for our children future and later on work with our Kudavan Hazar Imam....

Well.... ShamB... I am belong to Pir Nasir Khusraw (ra) tradition and my ancestor were converted into Shia Ismailism Islam at return of Pir Nasir Khusraw back to Khurasan from Egypt.....

About earring, in my opinion, these things such as men wearing earring in indo-pak tradition well, that was before Islam and those people were Hindus... Now days those people who accepted Islam, I don't think so that they are wearing earring in present time, except those youngers who watch too much Shah Rukh Khan movies....

1. You state - we are Muslim - define a Muslim - is it an ethnic group? a cultural group? is Islam bound by regional or dress boundaries? i.e. if a woman wears a dress does she cease to be a muslim? or does she need to have the niqab or hijab on to be a muslim?

2. You contradict what the Imam and Allah have said - In the Quran we are told - All the Prophets were Muslim - they followed Islam..i.e. Islam has been there from the Day of creation to the day of judgement.
Your statement on Hindu's wearing earrings is actually a stereotype.
Now I want you to define for me what a Hindu is? What is the etymology of the word? When did it come into use and who put it in use?
I'll give you a hint..a Hindu is a nationality..not a religion...the word Hindu - comes from the word Hind - i.e. River Hind. It has also been traced to the word Sindhu.

3. Our own Imam says there is "no compulsion in religion" - then why judge? Have you ever read the story of the Pharisee and the Widow? it's a part of the new testament - i'd suggest you read it.

4. In regards to your brother - my brother also wears an earring - one..he did it of his own accord, but outside of the earring - he is a good kid, no alcohol, no drugs, no hanky panky, comes to JK daily etc.
You're judging a book by it's cover. There are ways to raise kids and there are ways to raise kids..you have to find a middle path is what I'll tell you.

5. If you watch the Vancouver Banquet Video - you will see that there was a rap performed in front of Hazar Imam - Hafiz Jamal of Toronto wrote the rap I believe and he is the long haired earring guy standing in the back. I should also add that Hafiz is a doctor and attends both morning and evening Jamat Khana - so where did the earrings mislead him?

6. Hazar Imam has said this - "My grandfather often said you can take a horse to the water but you can not force him to drink." An Indian proverb - by tying books to a donkey's back you can not make him a genius"...same principle..you can bring someone to JK daily..force him to come..but if he/she is not willing - doesn't understand..at some point in time they will walk away. Faith comes from Love - and we have to show them love.

7. Allah is everywhere - He is in every atom of every being and even in the vacuum where there are no atoms...so..what does it matter where one writes Allah - The suicide bombers write whole ayats of quran on their bodies when they blow themselves up - and this is just a tattoo..an expression of the faith...a way to show love.
I don't have tattoos - too old for that now...but I am not ashamed to be a muslim. I wear my ghatpat jo duro - more out of superstition..but I have no shame in wearing one or hiding it. I often have my tasbih in my hand when i am walking or sitting down on the train..no hiding my faith ..i am who i am.

In your brother's case - I'd say he's having an identity crisis..he's caught between two worlds - one that you came from and the other one here and he's trying to fit in. Accept him as he is..reach out to him...talk to him...don't go around banning things..that fosters rebellion.

Shams

finni · Post by **finni** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:43 am

My take on this- Let him wear the earring...it does not harm him nor others.
I'd rather have the kid wear earring then do something stupid which is harmful to his physical and mental health which the directly harm the family and the society.

As adult, we are not perfect and and get involved in bad habits and our own transgressions.

Be a good person and take care of yourself and family and you will be ok in life..

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:47 am

finni wrote:My take on this- Let him wear the earring...it does not harm him nor others.
I'd rather have the kid wear earring then do something stupid which is harmful to his physical and mental health which the directly harm the family and the society.

As adult, we are not perfect and and get involved in bad habits and our own transgressions.

Be a good person and take care of yourself and family and you will be ok in life..

Well said.

"Kapda Dhove so Kya Huva..Dil Dhoove so Paave"
Pir Sadardeen.

Shams

www.ismaili.net

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