"WE created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them save with truth and for a TERM APPOINTED ! (Sura al Ahqaf)
The ultimate end of man and the world is consummated in the Resurrection and thus Imam Ali says..."Verily the end (al ghaya) is the Resurrection !
A human being is an entity compounded of spirit and matter and after death the body decomposes whereas the spirit (soul) continues to live...and so the physical death does not mean its obliteration - rther the person continues to live in the domain of "Barzakh" until the Resurrection occurs and in so far as the degree of such creation goes, the noble quran refers to the final stage of existentiation when the spirit is cast into a body,," Then WE produced it as another creation.." (Sura al Mu'mineen).
Several verses allude to the life in the world of barzakh..."behind them is a barrier (barzakh) until the day when they are RAISED up..." (Sura al Mu'mineen).
" On the day when the earth will be TRANSFORMED into another earth and the heavens also will be transformed and all will come forth unto God...." (Sura Ibrahim)
The quote I offered from Mowlana Rumi has infact been referenced by Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah Aga Khan in his explanation given to murids on the subject matter and so you can either accept it or reject it as this is your own prerogative and free will.
"..Rumi even said in one of his poems " Oh cup, be praised...oh wine be proud ", does that mean he was a drunkard ?..." he simply means he is intoxicated by the love of his beloved and so it is a metaphor ! he is alluding to his beloved and the love he has for his beloved and it's extent ! atleast this is my view - sorry if it is not yours !
And on meditation, yes as long as man allows his own ego to remain dominant, the effort will never materialize and so it may then become "wild imaginations' as you so aptly put it....however, if man is able to let go of all that he has heretofore desired materially and is able to return inwardly and feels less of an attraction to this material world and begins to yearn for the "God's atom" which is in his own heart, then by natural law, the desired object will also be attracted also and will begin to drift towards the self - the reaction of the phenomena will be either resultant victories OR defeats through wild imaginations because of MAYA and Illusions....it is in your hands says your own Imam !
It is said that if you wish to know God then you must know yourself first !
Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni
"You have come and gone so many times and having taken human form..."
I would break this into TWO parts namely "you have come and gone so many times" AND "having taken human form" (human form is singular)...I think once you do this separation, the meaning becomes much more easy ...
"..could the message be that you’ve come in this world so many times and now you’ve taken human form?..Like, you were a pigeon or a horse or a cockroach…even may be a tree before being born as a human…and now you have a chance to take your soul to its final destination by using your intellect and by recognizing the Imam of the Time and following Him..."
I think this seems more closer to what it says..one needs to ponder over the reason as to why we are here on this earth? what is the real purpose of this material life? and how we all can achieve salvation...
"HE from whom WE have come and to whom WE shall return" - the question is will we return and return again based on the verdict given by Allah ? or will we return and not return based on our aggregate karma being positive?
Every person does not undergo the same degree of punishment or suffering at the time of death - there are varying forms or degrees dependant upon the sins and transgressions committed and these tragic experience are the outcome of man's own karma of evil behaviour, acts and thoughts during his own lifetime.
The soul undergoes retribution but this "retributive' period is not the same as the actual "earthly time" and this is one of the mysteries of nature itself....this concept of time varies at different levels of consciousness and the noble quran makes a reference to it too....
"in the moment of death the dying person shall say that his stay on earth was just like a dream or probably it was shorter than a dream.." and so to the dying person his total life is presented to him like a dream
( in a flash) and so the karmic reckoning or retributive period will vary....now Allah shows clemency too..
" If ye avoid major sins which ye are forbidden, WE will remit from you your evil deeds and make you enter at a noble gate..." (Sura al Nisa)
Now lets review these ayats additionally so people have less doubts:
"Deemed ye then that WE had created you for naught and that ye would not be returned unto us...." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
" "Shall WE treat those who believe and do GOOD works as those who spread corruption in the earth; or shall WE treat the PIOUS as the wicked?..." (Sura Sad)
" Unto HIM is the return of all of you; it is a promise of GOD in truth. VERILY HE PRODUCETH CREATION, THEN REPRODUCETH IT, THAT HE MAY REWARD THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND DO GOOD WORKS WITH Equity; while those who disbelieve, theirs will be a BOILING DRINK because they disbelieved..." (Sura Yunus)
I hope the above is clear as crystal...
" then WE produced it as another production; so blessed be GOD, the best of Creators. Then verily after that ye surely die. Then verily on the Day of Resurrection, ye are raised up..." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
"And HE giveth life to the dead.." (Sura al Hajj)
" WE verily know that which the earth taketh of them and with US is a Recording Book..." (Sura Qa'f)
When unbelievers ask..." when we are lost in the earth, are we really then to be created anew?"
The Quran answers them..." SAY: The angel of death who hath charge over you, will gather you (Yatawaffakum) and afterward unto your Lord ye will be returned...." (Sura al Sajda)..." SAY: HE will revive them WHO produced them at the first, for HE is the knower of every Creation..." (Sura Ya Sin)
"The beautitude of God is greater...that is the supreme triumph..." (Sura al Tawba)
I would break this into TWO parts namely "you have come and gone so many times" AND "having taken human form" (human form is singular)...I think once you do this separation, the meaning becomes much more easy ...
"..could the message be that you’ve come in this world so many times and now you’ve taken human form?..Like, you were a pigeon or a horse or a cockroach…even may be a tree before being born as a human…and now you have a chance to take your soul to its final destination by using your intellect and by recognizing the Imam of the Time and following Him..."
I think this seems more closer to what it says..one needs to ponder over the reason as to why we are here on this earth? what is the real purpose of this material life? and how we all can achieve salvation...
"HE from whom WE have come and to whom WE shall return" - the question is will we return and return again based on the verdict given by Allah ? or will we return and not return based on our aggregate karma being positive?
Every person does not undergo the same degree of punishment or suffering at the time of death - there are varying forms or degrees dependant upon the sins and transgressions committed and these tragic experience are the outcome of man's own karma of evil behaviour, acts and thoughts during his own lifetime.
The soul undergoes retribution but this "retributive' period is not the same as the actual "earthly time" and this is one of the mysteries of nature itself....this concept of time varies at different levels of consciousness and the noble quran makes a reference to it too....
"in the moment of death the dying person shall say that his stay on earth was just like a dream or probably it was shorter than a dream.." and so to the dying person his total life is presented to him like a dream
( in a flash) and so the karmic reckoning or retributive period will vary....now Allah shows clemency too..
" If ye avoid major sins which ye are forbidden, WE will remit from you your evil deeds and make you enter at a noble gate..." (Sura al Nisa)
Now lets review these ayats additionally so people have less doubts:
"Deemed ye then that WE had created you for naught and that ye would not be returned unto us...." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
" "Shall WE treat those who believe and do GOOD works as those who spread corruption in the earth; or shall WE treat the PIOUS as the wicked?..." (Sura Sad)
" Unto HIM is the return of all of you; it is a promise of GOD in truth. VERILY HE PRODUCETH CREATION, THEN REPRODUCETH IT, THAT HE MAY REWARD THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND DO GOOD WORKS WITH Equity; while those who disbelieve, theirs will be a BOILING DRINK because they disbelieved..." (Sura Yunus)
I hope the above is clear as crystal...
" then WE produced it as another production; so blessed be GOD, the best of Creators. Then verily after that ye surely die. Then verily on the Day of Resurrection, ye are raised up..." (Sura al Mu'mineen)
"And HE giveth life to the dead.." (Sura al Hajj)
" WE verily know that which the earth taketh of them and with US is a Recording Book..." (Sura Qa'f)
When unbelievers ask..." when we are lost in the earth, are we really then to be created anew?"
The Quran answers them..." SAY: The angel of death who hath charge over you, will gather you (Yatawaffakum) and afterward unto your Lord ye will be returned...." (Sura al Sajda)..." SAY: HE will revive them WHO produced them at the first, for HE is the knower of every Creation..." (Sura Ya Sin)
"The beautitude of God is greater...that is the supreme triumph..." (Sura al Tawba)
Biryani,
I looked and was not able to find any explanation at my disposal so I am going to give you what I personally think.
35 + 25 + 16 + 8 (= 84)
Vaara chorasi phario (You have come and gone 84 times)
Syeda Imam Begum has divided this period of 84 pheras (coming and going) into four parts. Could it represent four yugas and in each yuga we took 35, 25, 18 & 8 forms respectively, may be. Could it mean we have evolved four times between the first man and the current form (monkey, crawling, upright, modern man etc.) like 35 pheras during 1 evolution, 25 pheras in next, 16 pheras in the next and 8 pheras in the fourth and final evolution, evolving all the time, of which this human life is the last chance, may very well be true.
You said:
You further said:
It does not matter how we interpret it, the bottom line is our souls have been going cycles after cycles without that spark and it is our duty as the carriers of this soul to get it in a position where the flame of Allah's noor finally touches it through the guidance of Imam of the time which will boost our soul into the (next) world of Alam-e-Arwah.
I believe this human form is one and the only shot we have to get our act together. After this no more coming and going. This is the form where our soul has a chance to awaken and it is up to us how much we can awaken and nourish our soul for its journey further which is without this physical body as its carrier and the soul must go on its own after getting the spark of awakening. It is the result of our deeds that is keeping it from awakening.
This was my own understanding and I am open to corrections and guidance from people who know better.
I looked and was not able to find any explanation at my disposal so I am going to give you what I personally think.
35 + 25 + 16 + 8 (= 84)
Vaara chorasi phario (You have come and gone 84 times)
Syeda Imam Begum has divided this period of 84 pheras (coming and going) into four parts. Could it represent four yugas and in each yuga we took 35, 25, 18 & 8 forms respectively, may be. Could it mean we have evolved four times between the first man and the current form (monkey, crawling, upright, modern man etc.) like 35 pheras during 1 evolution, 25 pheras in next, 16 pheras in the next and 8 pheras in the fourth and final evolution, evolving all the time, of which this human life is the last chance, may very well be true.
You said:
I personally subscribe to this more so because I find support for this in Rumi's writings and closely elsewhere also. Now I am not sure what I have been in my previous avatars but the idea makes more sense to me than any other. Another thing that I believe is that we did not carry our souls until we got to the human form. I don't find any support for animals or insects having souls. Allah actually put the soul into humans and we find support for this. So now the question arises; did we take 84 pheras in human form? May be so.I mean, for example in this case, could the message be that you’ve come in this world so many times and now you’ve taken human form?..Like, you were a pigeon or a horse or a cockroach…even may be a tree before being born as a human…and now you have a chance to take your soul to its final destination by using your intellect and by recognizing the Imam of the Time and following Him
You further said:
Although I am not too much in favor of this but it makes sense as well. The final 8 pheras may very well have been in human form. Remember I said that physical and spiritual aspects go hand in hand? We may have progressed from next to nothing in achievement to great achievements and understanding, both mentally/physically/morally and spiritually, in our 7th go and so we got this last chance as Imam shanaas humans, not necessarily just Ismailis. This theory has a hint of reincarnation.or does it actually mean that we Ismailies really had been here so many times even as humans before this life…but due to lack of 'Recognition of the Imam" we had to come back over and over..how to interpret it right?
It does not matter how we interpret it, the bottom line is our souls have been going cycles after cycles without that spark and it is our duty as the carriers of this soul to get it in a position where the flame of Allah's noor finally touches it through the guidance of Imam of the time which will boost our soul into the (next) world of Alam-e-Arwah.
I believe this human form is one and the only shot we have to get our act together. After this no more coming and going. This is the form where our soul has a chance to awaken and it is up to us how much we can awaken and nourish our soul for its journey further which is without this physical body as its carrier and the soul must go on its own after getting the spark of awakening. It is the result of our deeds that is keeping it from awakening.
This was my own understanding and I am open to corrections and guidance from people who know better.
There are 27 verses in the Quran where Allah says - You were dead, I gave you life, You will die and I will give you life and you will die and I will give you life again.shiraz.virani wrote:rebirth in quran ??
could you please post those verses or should i say imaginary verses :wink
The Imam in his 1964 Farmans has also stated - "do not think you are only here for what is ONE existence and thereafter you'll have to account for nothing".
Shams
Thanks Shams !
Hazrat Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq whose Imamat was from c. 118 A.H./736 A.C. to 148 A.H./765 A.C. discerned the four different aspects of the Holy Qu’ran thus:
expression, for the common people; allusion, for the privileged or elite; touches of grace (lata’if) for the saints; and finally the ‘realities’ for the Prophets.
Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel, The University of North Carolina Press. Third Printing April 1978, p. 41.
The learned or advanced people may be in worldly or spiritual matters but without the true understanding or haqiqati knowledge given by the Teacher, Imam-i-Zaman, they are liable to lose direction and grope about.
The current Imam has emphasised to the Ismailis the need for a balance between the material and the spiritual aspects of their lives.
He has reminded his followers about the transient nature of life in this world and the eternal reality of the hereafter, the preparation for which should begin in this life.
There is no need to be completely mesmerized by the temporal phenomena at the cost of the eternal reality.
From the spiritual void comes our Imam and unites the multiplicity of human knowledge and creates certitude of True Knowledge
Hazrat Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq whose Imamat was from c. 118 A.H./736 A.C. to 148 A.H./765 A.C. discerned the four different aspects of the Holy Qu’ran thus:
expression, for the common people; allusion, for the privileged or elite; touches of grace (lata’if) for the saints; and finally the ‘realities’ for the Prophets.
Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel, The University of North Carolina Press. Third Printing April 1978, p. 41.
The learned or advanced people may be in worldly or spiritual matters but without the true understanding or haqiqati knowledge given by the Teacher, Imam-i-Zaman, they are liable to lose direction and grope about.
The current Imam has emphasised to the Ismailis the need for a balance between the material and the spiritual aspects of their lives.
He has reminded his followers about the transient nature of life in this world and the eternal reality of the hereafter, the preparation for which should begin in this life.
There is no need to be completely mesmerized by the temporal phenomena at the cost of the eternal reality.
From the spiritual void comes our Imam and unites the multiplicity of human knowledge and creates certitude of True Knowledge
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
brother shamsB said :
i dont see any problem with this brother, plus if you can post that holy aayat i would really appreciate it
brother shamsB, our holy imam is talking about AAKHIRAT, which we all muslims including you call judgement day
the term "account for nothing" itself speaks for itself
you're born once[physically] , you die once[physically] ...you're brought back to life [spiritually] i.e on judgement dayThere are 27 verses in the Quran where Allah says - You were dead, I gave you life, You will die and I will give you life and you will die and I will give you life again.
i dont see any problem with this brother, plus if you can post that holy aayat i would really appreciate it
The Imam in his 1964 Farmans has also stated - "do not think you are only here for what is ONE existence and thereafter you'll have to account for nothing".
brother shamsB, our holy imam is talking about AAKHIRAT, which we all muslims including you call judgement day
the term "account for nothing" itself speaks for itself
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
brother pardesi said :
now since you asked me brother i would say , YES, i believe in meditation[ excluding power ] because even our holy rasool[saw] used to meditate but he never claimed divinity.
shiraz.virani wrote:
dear sister rumi even said in one of his poems " Oh cup, be praised...oh wine be proud ", does that mean he was a drunkard ?
there was no such thing called power of meditation ....but i would rather call it POWER OF IMAGINATION...
Dear Shiraz,
What is your take on "power of meditation"? Does it exist? Or everything is just imagination running wild. Leave the power alone for now, do you believe in meditation?
now since you asked me brother i would say , YES, i believe in meditation[ excluding power ] because even our holy rasool[saw] used to meditate but he never claimed divinity.
“Here I write down some proofs that our Holy Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam was not only a bashar but he was a Noor too.....so how can he not be divine if the Noor is fromthe Dhat or essence of Allah and not HIS Creative attribute?
These examples have been written in order to make it easy to understand otherwise Allah Almighty is beyond the examples.
Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (Allah is well pleased with him) cousin of the holy prophet (Allah's Grace and Peace be upon Him) says in the commentary of the verse 35 from chapter 24: Sura Noor.
"The similitude of the Noor (Light) of Allah is Noor (light) of the Holy Prophet (Allah's Grace and Peace be upon Him), when he was in the backs of ancestors". (Tafseer-e-Ibne Abbas page 372)
Now I am giving you the names of the books in which this hadith has been narrated.
Allama Ibne Hagar hatiami wrote in his book that the hadith, "Undoubtedly Allah Almighty created the "Noor of Prophet Muhammad (Allah's grace and Peace be upon Him) before every thing", has been narrated by Imam Abdur Razzaq in his book of hadith (Fatawa -e- Hadithia, page 289)
There are many other great ulemas who have narrated this hadith in their books , I am writing for you the names of few books with their writers :
1. Allama Hassan -bin- Muhammad Diyar Becri, "Tarekh -ul- Khamees".
2. Shah Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlvi, "Madarig-un-Nabuwwah" Vol 2, page
3. Allama Zarqani, "Sherha Movahib", vol. 1, page 55
4. Allama Abdul Ghani, " Al Hadiqa tul Ndiyah", Vol. 2, page 375”
Want more? Here, feast on it :
“Once Hazrat Jaabir (radi Allahu anhu) asked the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) whom Allah Ta'ala created before anything else. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) stated:
"O Jaabir! Verily, before the creation of anything else Almighty Allah created the Noor of your Nabi from His Noor." (Muwahibul Laduniya; Zirkani Shareef)”
The light of wisdom (the Quran) in the heart of the Holy Prophet is as protected as the lamp in the glass.
Verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah clearly state that the Quran is a protected book; and no one can touch it save the thoroughly purified, the Ahl ul Bayt, according to the verse 33 of Ahzab.
Therefore the true interpretation of "light upon light" is the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.
"Allah guides whom He wills to His light" see the commentary of al Baqarah: 256 and 257-he who believes in Allah, indeed, has taken hold of the firmest handhold (or rope) which will not break off.
Allah brings them out of the darkness into light-It is obvious that those who are guided unto His light are the thoroughly purified ones.
They alone are the manifestations of the real light. Those who follow these reflection of the divine light receive guidance from the grace of Allah to the extend or degree of their sincere attachment to them.
Allah Ta’ala say in the Qur’an:
‎"..Verily came to you from Allah Noor and the clear book. (Al-Maidah-15) - The TWO Precious things !
These examples have been written in order to make it easy to understand otherwise Allah Almighty is beyond the examples.
Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (Allah is well pleased with him) cousin of the holy prophet (Allah's Grace and Peace be upon Him) says in the commentary of the verse 35 from chapter 24: Sura Noor.
"The similitude of the Noor (Light) of Allah is Noor (light) of the Holy Prophet (Allah's Grace and Peace be upon Him), when he was in the backs of ancestors". (Tafseer-e-Ibne Abbas page 372)
Now I am giving you the names of the books in which this hadith has been narrated.
Allama Ibne Hagar hatiami wrote in his book that the hadith, "Undoubtedly Allah Almighty created the "Noor of Prophet Muhammad (Allah's grace and Peace be upon Him) before every thing", has been narrated by Imam Abdur Razzaq in his book of hadith (Fatawa -e- Hadithia, page 289)
There are many other great ulemas who have narrated this hadith in their books , I am writing for you the names of few books with their writers :
1. Allama Hassan -bin- Muhammad Diyar Becri, "Tarekh -ul- Khamees".
2. Shah Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlvi, "Madarig-un-Nabuwwah" Vol 2, page
3. Allama Zarqani, "Sherha Movahib", vol. 1, page 55
4. Allama Abdul Ghani, " Al Hadiqa tul Ndiyah", Vol. 2, page 375”
Want more? Here, feast on it :
“Once Hazrat Jaabir (radi Allahu anhu) asked the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) whom Allah Ta'ala created before anything else. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) stated:
"O Jaabir! Verily, before the creation of anything else Almighty Allah created the Noor of your Nabi from His Noor." (Muwahibul Laduniya; Zirkani Shareef)”
The light of wisdom (the Quran) in the heart of the Holy Prophet is as protected as the lamp in the glass.
Verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah clearly state that the Quran is a protected book; and no one can touch it save the thoroughly purified, the Ahl ul Bayt, according to the verse 33 of Ahzab.
Therefore the true interpretation of "light upon light" is the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.
"Allah guides whom He wills to His light" see the commentary of al Baqarah: 256 and 257-he who believes in Allah, indeed, has taken hold of the firmest handhold (or rope) which will not break off.
Allah brings them out of the darkness into light-It is obvious that those who are guided unto His light are the thoroughly purified ones.
They alone are the manifestations of the real light. Those who follow these reflection of the divine light receive guidance from the grace of Allah to the extend or degree of their sincere attachment to them.
Allah Ta’ala say in the Qur’an:
‎"..Verily came to you from Allah Noor and the clear book. (Al-Maidah-15) - The TWO Precious things !
Pardesi,
This discussion is just leading to a dead end…like most others.
You didn’t explain those numbers or anything else with any evidence or logic, you pretty much only said the same things in different words and made some assumptions about those numbers and repeated same old “myths”...
…we all have grown up with such things but never understood them…some of us simply believed in it with their own - potentially flawed - understanding and some of us just say that we don’t know what it means… and still searching and going with what our limited intellect and cosmopolitan ethics tell us and that way, I think, we are not guilty of anything…the people who blindly believed in a potentially wrong idea of something against the human logics potentially have a chance to be wrong.
Just going back to my original point…Which was that all people are spiritually equal by who they are or who they were born as religiously…and the only difference is what they do and how they live their life…and that’s just up to the individual.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also has said in one of his famous Hadith that only preference one person has over the other is by his or her character. Now, do you think he meant that in any other context except spiritual?
This discussion is just leading to a dead end…like most others.
You didn’t explain those numbers or anything else with any evidence or logic, you pretty much only said the same things in different words and made some assumptions about those numbers and repeated same old “myths”...
…we all have grown up with such things but never understood them…some of us simply believed in it with their own - potentially flawed - understanding and some of us just say that we don’t know what it means… and still searching and going with what our limited intellect and cosmopolitan ethics tell us and that way, I think, we are not guilty of anything…the people who blindly believed in a potentially wrong idea of something against the human logics potentially have a chance to be wrong.
Just going back to my original point…Which was that all people are spiritually equal by who they are or who they were born as religiously…and the only difference is what they do and how they live their life…and that’s just up to the individual.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also has said in one of his famous Hadith that only preference one person has over the other is by his or her character. Now, do you think he meant that in any other context except spiritual?
"And enjoin prayer on your household ."20:132), Jaledin Siyuti in "al-Durr al-Manthur", has related as quoting Abu Saeed Khidri as saying that after this verse was revealed, for eight months, the Prophet went to the house of `Ali every morning at the time of morning prayers and read this verse: ".. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you a (thorough) purifying (33:33)." ("Al-Durr al-Manthur" 198/5 and 199; "Fadail al-Khamsah"; 226/1).
"We serve as the ark of salvation. Whoever holds fast to this ark will reach salvation and whoever deviates from it will be cast into perdition. Whoever wants Allah to grant him something should resort to the `ahl al-bayt'."
This tradition has been narrated by Shaykh al-Islam Hamu'i in the first chapter of "Fara'id al-Samtayn" and Khatib Khwarazmi in "Manaqib" 252 (c.f. "al-Ghadir" 300/2).The Ashbah tradition has been narrated by Allamah Amini in the al-Ghadir" (301/7)
Imam Shafii' says.."When I saw different schools of thought directing people toward the seas of ignorance and deviation, I boarded the ark of salvation in the Name of Allah.This arc is verily crystallized in the "ahl al-bayt" .
Safinah Tradition
The virtues of the "ahl al-bayt" have been amply mentioned in the authenticated and Tawatur traditions narratted by both Shia and Sunni `Ulama. Using different words and phrases, these traditions have asked people to love the "ahl al-bayt" and follow thier teachings.
For instance, the Holy Prophet (s) has compared his "ahl al-bayt" to Noah's ark.
Whoever loves and follows them will attain salvation and whoever violates their sanctity will drown.
Among very famous traditions in which the "ahl al-bayt" have been resembled to the ark of salvation, reference can be made to the famous "Ishbah tradition" which has been narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) by Abu Hurayrah `Abdul-Rahman bin Sakhar (d 59 A.H.).
"Verily We have shown him the way , whether he be grateful or disbelieving" says Allah !
"We serve as the ark of salvation. Whoever holds fast to this ark will reach salvation and whoever deviates from it will be cast into perdition. Whoever wants Allah to grant him something should resort to the `ahl al-bayt'."
This tradition has been narrated by Shaykh al-Islam Hamu'i in the first chapter of "Fara'id al-Samtayn" and Khatib Khwarazmi in "Manaqib" 252 (c.f. "al-Ghadir" 300/2).The Ashbah tradition has been narrated by Allamah Amini in the al-Ghadir" (301/7)
Imam Shafii' says.."When I saw different schools of thought directing people toward the seas of ignorance and deviation, I boarded the ark of salvation in the Name of Allah.This arc is verily crystallized in the "ahl al-bayt" .
Safinah Tradition
The virtues of the "ahl al-bayt" have been amply mentioned in the authenticated and Tawatur traditions narratted by both Shia and Sunni `Ulama. Using different words and phrases, these traditions have asked people to love the "ahl al-bayt" and follow thier teachings.
For instance, the Holy Prophet (s) has compared his "ahl al-bayt" to Noah's ark.
Whoever loves and follows them will attain salvation and whoever violates their sanctity will drown.
Among very famous traditions in which the "ahl al-bayt" have been resembled to the ark of salvation, reference can be made to the famous "Ishbah tradition" which has been narrated from the Holy Prophet (s) by Abu Hurayrah `Abdul-Rahman bin Sakhar (d 59 A.H.).
"Verily We have shown him the way , whether he be grateful or disbelieving" says Allah !
In a message dated 23/03/2009 6:37:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Kafton18 writes:
1. Ya Sin. 2. By the wise Qur'an, 3. Lo! thou art of those sent 4. On a straight path, 5. A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful,
6. That thou mayst warn a folk whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
7. Already hath the judgment, (for their infidelity) proved true of most of them, for they believe not.
8. Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.
9. And We have set a bar before them and a bar behind them, and (thus) have covered them so that they see not.
10. Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not, it is alike for them, for they believe not.
11. Thou warnest only him who followeth the Reminder and feareth the Beneficent in secret. To him bear tidings of forgiveness and a rich reward.
12. Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a Manifest Imam.
13. Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent (from Allah) came unto them;
14. When We sent unto them twain, and they denied them both, so We reinforced them with a third, and they said: Lo! we have been sent unto you.
15. They said: Ye are but mortals like unto us. The Beneficent hath naught revealed. Ye do but lie!
16. They answered: Our Lord knoweth that we are indeed sent unto you,
31. Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them, which indeed returned not unto them; 32. But all, without exception, will be brought before Us.
33. A token unto them is the dead earth. We revive it, and We bring forth from it grain so that they eat thereof;
34. And We have placed therein gardens of the date-palm and grapes, and We have caused springs of water to gush forth therein,
35. That they may eat of the fruit thereof, and their hands made it not. Will they not, then, give thanks ?
37. A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness.
38. And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
39. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
40. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
41. And a token unto them is that We bear their offspring in the laden ship,
These two unprecedented and magnificent things, each of which is weightier than the heaven and the earth, or rather the entire universe, are the Qur'ân and its Teacher (the Imam) whom the Prophet appointed as his khalifah or successor.
It is they who are the rope of God which is stretched from the heaven to the earth to lift the people of the earth to the heaven (Sharh, X, 481)." [Source: Tawil 669: A Thousand Wisdoms]
1. Ya Sin. 2. By the wise Qur'an, 3. Lo! thou art of those sent 4. On a straight path, 5. A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful,
6. That thou mayst warn a folk whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.
7. Already hath the judgment, (for their infidelity) proved true of most of them, for they believe not.
8. Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.
9. And We have set a bar before them and a bar behind them, and (thus) have covered them so that they see not.
10. Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not, it is alike for them, for they believe not.
11. Thou warnest only him who followeth the Reminder and feareth the Beneficent in secret. To him bear tidings of forgiveness and a rich reward.
12. Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a Manifest Imam.
13. Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent (from Allah) came unto them;
14. When We sent unto them twain, and they denied them both, so We reinforced them with a third, and they said: Lo! we have been sent unto you.
15. They said: Ye are but mortals like unto us. The Beneficent hath naught revealed. Ye do but lie!
16. They answered: Our Lord knoweth that we are indeed sent unto you,
31. Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them, which indeed returned not unto them; 32. But all, without exception, will be brought before Us.
33. A token unto them is the dead earth. We revive it, and We bring forth from it grain so that they eat thereof;
34. And We have placed therein gardens of the date-palm and grapes, and We have caused springs of water to gush forth therein,
35. That they may eat of the fruit thereof, and their hands made it not. Will they not, then, give thanks ?
37. A token unto them is night. We strip it of the day, and lo! they are in darkness.
38. And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
39. And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
40. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
41. And a token unto them is that We bear their offspring in the laden ship,
These two unprecedented and magnificent things, each of which is weightier than the heaven and the earth, or rather the entire universe, are the Qur'ân and its Teacher (the Imam) whom the Prophet appointed as his khalifah or successor.
It is they who are the rope of God which is stretched from the heaven to the earth to lift the people of the earth to the heaven (Sharh, X, 481)." [Source: Tawil 669: A Thousand Wisdoms]
Verily, Allah commands ‘Adl (fairness, justice, balance, equity), Ihsan
(excellence in servitude to Allah, benevolence towards people, graciousness in dealings) and giving to those close to you, while He forbids Fahshaa (lewdness, indecency, licentiousness, immorality), Munkar (bad actions, undesirable activities, unacceptable behaviour), and Baghy (rebellion, transgressing limits, exploiting or violating others’ rights, abuse of authority or freedom). He admonishes you so that you heed the advice. 16:90
In addition to justice, Muslims are commanded to excel, to be gracious and magnanimous in their dealings, forgiving and benevolent to people and doing more than they are obligated.
This should be done individually and collectively as a society.
There are many civil society organizations which may provide an opportunity to excel in service of humanity.
We should work with such organizations according to the following Islamic principle:
"Cooperate with each other in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression." 5:2
Muslims are also obligated to develop a social environment where goodness flourishes and evil is discouraged.
Nooran ala Noor ! Light upon Light ! the Light is eternal ! Ever Living ! Perpetual
Seest thou not how Allah coineth a similitude a goodly saying as a goodly tree, its root set firm, its branches stretching
into Heaven, Giving its fruits at every season, by permission of its Lord, Allah coineth the similitude for mankind in order
that they may reflect" Quran 14:24, 25
"Every Imam possesses the knowledge which is the base of the Faith of Monotheism.
This knowledge is transfered from one Imam to the other, Light-upon-Light (Nooran-ala-Noor) until the Day of Resurrection.
Say [Prophet Muhammad]: this is my Path, I call [others] to Allah with sure knowledge, I and whosever follows after me.
To Allah be glory! And I am not among the idolaters." Quran, Chapter Joseph 12:108
(excellence in servitude to Allah, benevolence towards people, graciousness in dealings) and giving to those close to you, while He forbids Fahshaa (lewdness, indecency, licentiousness, immorality), Munkar (bad actions, undesirable activities, unacceptable behaviour), and Baghy (rebellion, transgressing limits, exploiting or violating others’ rights, abuse of authority or freedom). He admonishes you so that you heed the advice. 16:90
In addition to justice, Muslims are commanded to excel, to be gracious and magnanimous in their dealings, forgiving and benevolent to people and doing more than they are obligated.
This should be done individually and collectively as a society.
There are many civil society organizations which may provide an opportunity to excel in service of humanity.
We should work with such organizations according to the following Islamic principle:
"Cooperate with each other in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression." 5:2
Muslims are also obligated to develop a social environment where goodness flourishes and evil is discouraged.
Nooran ala Noor ! Light upon Light ! the Light is eternal ! Ever Living ! Perpetual
Seest thou not how Allah coineth a similitude a goodly saying as a goodly tree, its root set firm, its branches stretching
into Heaven, Giving its fruits at every season, by permission of its Lord, Allah coineth the similitude for mankind in order
that they may reflect" Quran 14:24, 25
"Every Imam possesses the knowledge which is the base of the Faith of Monotheism.
This knowledge is transfered from one Imam to the other, Light-upon-Light (Nooran-ala-Noor) until the Day of Resurrection.
Say [Prophet Muhammad]: this is my Path, I call [others] to Allah with sure knowledge, I and whosever follows after me.
To Allah be glory! And I am not among the idolaters." Quran, Chapter Joseph 12:108
Sorry you feel our discussion is headed towards a dead end. Unfortunately I am not an expert in interpretation of religious texts. I consider myself a student and a seeker. We all come here to learn from each other by discussing and sometimes arguing over our points of view. In the absence of official interpretations of ginans this is what you do. Try to learn from each other that is. My views and findings do not appeal to you and that is okay but I hold them very dear as those are my findings and they have opened a lot of doors for me which help me further my learning. It makes sense to me and it works for me. If you are looking for clear cut answers then my friend there are none as the pirs, syeds or syedas who wrote ginans are no more among us but then again that does not mean that ginans are just hot air.Biryani wrote:Pardesi,
This discussion is just leading to a dead end…like most others.
You didn’t explain those numbers or anything else with any evidence or logic, you pretty much only said the same things in different words and made some assumptions about those numbers and repeated same old “myths”...
I agree. But what do you suggest we do considering we all have "potentially flawed" understanding which "potentially" has a very good chance to be wrong in the end. I believe that if you approach anything with the right frame of mind and the right attitude you will make progress in your search. Not everyone will agree with your findings but if you are satisfied then keep going forward. No one here has anything to prove to others. We are just sharing our ideas.…we all have grown up with such things but never understood them…some of us simply believed in it with their own - potentially flawed - understanding and some of us just say that we don’t know what it means… and still searching and going with what our limited intellect and cosmopolitan ethics tell us and that way, I think, we are not guilty of anything…the people who blindly believed in a potentially wrong idea of something against the human logics potentially have a chance to be wrong.
I am not sure if we were all born equal, spiritually that is. I agree that we all have a spirit and if that is what you are pointing at then yes I agree. It is like we all passed 5th grade and now are in 6th grade. Does it matter what the final ranking was in the 5th grade? No, not any more now that we are all in the 6th grade where the game starts all over. But I believe the students who are focused on where or what they want to be would find it easy to progress in the next grade and it does not matter if they are 1st, 2nd or 3rd or 53rd in their class they will continue to progress at a high level. The bottom line is are we focused on where we want to go spiritually as without the knowledge of destination you will just be going in circles all your life.Just going back to my original point…Which was that all people are spiritually equal by who they are or who they were born as religiously…and the only difference is what they do and how they live their life…and that’s just up to the individual.
This I believe was in his last sermon at Mecca at the farewell pilgrimage. I dont agree that it had any spiritual context. It was about peoples' superiority complex and their prejudices towards each other which the prophet was well aware of. What do you think was so spiritual about that?Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also has said in one of his famous Hadith that only preference one person has over the other is by his or her character. Now, do you think he meant that in any other context except spiritual?
I want to come back to your point and that I believe was that if one is born an ismaili it does not give him any advantage over non-ismailis in spiritual matters. Now it depends on what you believe. If Ismailism is the correct and true path because of the presence of an ever living Imam who can guide you towards the right gate then yes we Ismailis have an advantage. Do we take advantage of the situation we are put in is entirely different matter because if we don't then we are no different than those who do not have a true guide.
Shall we say we are both correct and move on?
shiraz.virani wrote:brother pardesi said :
Dear Shiraz,
What is your take on "power of meditation"? Does it exist? Or everything is just imagination running wild. Leave the power alone for now, do you believe in meditation?
now since you asked me brother i would say , YES, i believe in meditation[ excluding power ] because even our holy rasool[saw] used to meditate but he never claimed divinity.
Since you believe in meditation "(excluding power)" do you think one can avail something from meditation. And could you be more specific about "excluding power" in your above sentence.
That's your interpretation. You are welcome to it.shiraz.virani wrote:brother shamsB said :
you're born once[physically] , you die once[physically] ...you're brought back to life [spiritually] i.e on judgement dayThere are 27 verses in the Quran where Allah says - You were dead, I gave you life, You will die and I will give you life and you will die and I will give you life again.
i dont see any problem with this brother, plus if you can post that holy aayat i would really appreciate it
The Imam in his 1964 Farmans has also stated - "do not think you are only here for what is ONE existence and thereafter you'll have to account for nothing".
brother shamsB, our holy imam is talking about AAKHIRAT, which we all muslims including you call judgement day
the term "account for nothing" itself speaks for itself
Allah in the Quran says Allah is fair and just to everyone - for deeds committed on the physical plane - punishment or reward is in the physical plane..this has nothing to do with spiritual enlightenment - your physical activity is what determines whether you will be able to seek physical enlightenment.
If this is not so - then explain to me why one baby is born on the streets of a slum and another one to a queen in a palace - if Allah is just as HE HIMSELF HAS STATED - then WHY THE DISPARITY???
Remember MHI has once stated..children who are hungry will not be able to focus in school - the same applies to bandagi - someone that has to worry about their next meal, or the roof on their heads will not be able to concentrate let alone wake up for bandagi, or even think about it..
it's basic Maslov's Pyramid....
You need to read the Farmans of MSMS - there were many on the subject of rebirth.
In regards to the Ayat from the Quran - it doesn't say you will die and come back to life on the day of judgement - it start with..You WERE DEAD - implying that you had lived to have died...and then HE brought you to life again - and you will die again and he will bring you to life again and you will die again...and so forth.
Once again..our faith is pluralistic..you have your viewpoint and are welcome to it...we/i have ours..and are welcome to that.
Shams
Biryani,Biryani wrote:Pardesi,
This discussion is just leading to a dead end…like most others.
You didn’t explain those numbers or anything else with any evidence or logic, you pretty much only said the same things in different words and made some assumptions about those numbers and repeated same old “myths”...
…we all have grown up with such things but never understood them…some of us simply believed in it with their own - potentially flawed - understanding and some of us just say that we don’t know what it means… and still searching and going with what our limited intellect and cosmopolitan ethics tell us and that way, I think, we are not guilty of anything…the people who blindly believed in a potentially wrong idea of something against the human logics potentially have a chance to be wrong.
Just going back to my original point…Which was that all people are spiritually equal by who they are or who they were born as religiously…and the only difference is what they do and how they live their life…and that’s just up to the individual.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also has said in one of his famous Hadith that only preference one person has over the other is by his or her character. Now, do you think he meant that in any other context except spiritual?
One possible explanation is the numbers that Sayeda Imam Begum speaks of are numbers of Human births allotted in each different Jug. The "ghor andhari" which is what we all are possibly have been allowed these number of births to recognize the imam and attain salvation...
he jugs don't have the same number of years allotted to them(kmaherali - please help with the exact numbers) ...if you notice the numbers also grow with the length of the jugs - the longest jug has the highest number and then it decreases...just my explanation...another interpretation...
Shams
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
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brother shamsB said :
brother shamsB, its like asking why some people are born handicap...the holy quran says :
“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed; And He is the Exalted in Might, oft-Forgiving.” (Al-Quran 67:2)
Every year the question paper in an examination keeps on changing. It does not remain the same. Similarly Allah tests different human beings in different ways. He gives health to some people while others are born with defects or are handicapped. To some people He gives wealth, while others are poor.
Depending upon what facilities and qualities Allah has provided to each human being, Allah will judge him accordingly. If the test is difficult, then Allah will be lenient while judging. If the test is simple, then Allah will not be lenient while judging. A poor person does not have to give Zakah. He gets full marks where Zakah is concerned. On the other hand, a rich person is supposed to give Zakah. Many rich people give much less than what they actually are supposed to give, thus getting less marks (or negative marks) where Zakah is concerned.
Many infants are born with congenital defects. Some are deaf and dumb, while others are handicapped. An infant is not responsible for his or her defect. In such cases, perhaps Allah is testing the parents, whether they yet have faith in Him after this misfortune. Allah says in the Quran in Surah Anfal Chapter-8 Verse-28 “And know ye that your possession and your progeny are but a trial; and that it is Allah with whom lies your highest reward”. (Al-Quran 8:28)
brother hope i answered your question
If this is not so - then explain to me why one baby is born on the streets of a slum and another one to a queen in a palace - if Allah is just as HE HIMSELF HAS STATED - then WHY THE DISPARITY???
brother shamsB, its like asking why some people are born handicap...the holy quran says :
“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed; And He is the Exalted in Might, oft-Forgiving.” (Al-Quran 67:2)
Every year the question paper in an examination keeps on changing. It does not remain the same. Similarly Allah tests different human beings in different ways. He gives health to some people while others are born with defects or are handicapped. To some people He gives wealth, while others are poor.
Depending upon what facilities and qualities Allah has provided to each human being, Allah will judge him accordingly. If the test is difficult, then Allah will be lenient while judging. If the test is simple, then Allah will not be lenient while judging. A poor person does not have to give Zakah. He gets full marks where Zakah is concerned. On the other hand, a rich person is supposed to give Zakah. Many rich people give much less than what they actually are supposed to give, thus getting less marks (or negative marks) where Zakah is concerned.
Many infants are born with congenital defects. Some are deaf and dumb, while others are handicapped. An infant is not responsible for his or her defect. In such cases, perhaps Allah is testing the parents, whether they yet have faith in Him after this misfortune. Allah says in the Quran in Surah Anfal Chapter-8 Verse-28 “And know ye that your possession and your progeny are but a trial; and that it is Allah with whom lies your highest reward”. (Al-Quran 8:28)
brother hope i answered your question
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
brother pardesi said :
definately, what you can achieve is peace of mind, by excluding power i meant NO DIVINITY, a person who openly says that iam god , the best example is SHRI SAI BABA
go on youtube and do some research brother
shiraz.virani wrote:
brother pardesi said :
Quote:
Dear Shiraz,
What is your take on "power of meditation"? Does it exist? Or everything is just imagination running wild. Leave the power alone for now, do you believe in meditation?
now since you asked me brother i would say , YES, i believe in meditation[ excluding power ] because even our holy rasool[saw] used to meditate but he never claimed divinity.
Since you believe in meditation "(excluding power)" do you think one can avail something from meditation. And could you be more specific about "excluding power" in your above sentence.
definately, what you can achieve is peace of mind, by excluding power i meant NO DIVINITY, a person who openly says that iam god , the best example is SHRI SAI BABA
go on youtube and do some research brother
The numbers (35,25,16,8) could just be symbolic of lives lived to different age categories – old-age, middle-age, youth and childhood.ShamsB wrote:One possible explanation is the numbers that Sayeda Imam Begum speaks of are numbers of Human births allotted in each different Jug. The "ghor andhari" which is what we all are possibly have been allowed these number of births to recognize the imam and attain salvation...
he jugs don't have the same number of years allotted to them(kmaherali - please help with the exact numbers) ...if you notice the numbers also grow with the length of the jugs - the longest jug has the highest number and then it decreases...just my explanation...another interpretation...
Shams
"...what you can achieve is peace of mind, by excluding power i meant NO DIVINITY, a person who openly says that iam god , the best example is SHRI SAI BABA..."
Virani, can you please explain why Allah refers to HIS own First Person as WE/US/OURS ? The Mullahs argue that Allah is showing "Adhab" by giving Himself RESPECT....so when I ask them a clarifying question as to why HE uses "I" intermittently and does this mean that HE the exalted is downgrading Himself, they run away.....Also...
How many degrees of TAWHID are there? let me help you here a bit....kindly explain the fundamental difference between the first degree which is the ONENESS of ESSENCE and the second degree which is the ONENESS of HIS DIVINE Attributes?
After that we can then talk about the ONENESS of Creatorship !
ONENESS of Lordship ! ONENESS of Worship ! and then move forward to see if your argument holds merit....
Will wait for your response...the problem that I do see is that many do not truly understand what is the UNITY of TAWHID and many are confused.....Also let me know if Hazrat Ali (as) claimed divinity or not?
Virani, can you please explain why Allah refers to HIS own First Person as WE/US/OURS ? The Mullahs argue that Allah is showing "Adhab" by giving Himself RESPECT....so when I ask them a clarifying question as to why HE uses "I" intermittently and does this mean that HE the exalted is downgrading Himself, they run away.....Also...
How many degrees of TAWHID are there? let me help you here a bit....kindly explain the fundamental difference between the first degree which is the ONENESS of ESSENCE and the second degree which is the ONENESS of HIS DIVINE Attributes?
After that we can then talk about the ONENESS of Creatorship !
ONENESS of Lordship ! ONENESS of Worship ! and then move forward to see if your argument holds merit....
Will wait for your response...the problem that I do see is that many do not truly understand what is the UNITY of TAWHID and many are confused.....Also let me know if Hazrat Ali (as) claimed divinity or not?
"...The numbers (35,25,16, could just be symbolic of lives lived to different age categories – old-age, middle-age, youth and childhood...."....OR
Uth Jag Maan Mera....Wake up !
One other way to look at this issue is....that under natural law a man receives punishment after death for the sins during one's own lifetime....statistically the average life span is about 84 years....man forgets his divine origins and so without such reactions or rebirths and ofcourse the retribution, how will the soul redeem from its state of forgetfulness?
Miseries and Joys spring from our existence in this world which feels so real to us but in reality it is just an illusion - a dream ! and so similarly the pain and the tortures as well as the escstasies will also feel real in the hereafter...we undergo three phases namely Sleep ; dreams and wakefulness and within these three phases the mind or the ego works and so the "karmic doctrine" operates at all these levels of consciousness...during our lifetime.
So it is possible that the Pir is describing these different phases in a man's life and is prodding man to WAKE UP ! and questioning why are you still "Sleeping"?....wakefulness comes after slumber ..right?
Uth Jag Maan Mera....Wake up !
One other way to look at this issue is....that under natural law a man receives punishment after death for the sins during one's own lifetime....statistically the average life span is about 84 years....man forgets his divine origins and so without such reactions or rebirths and ofcourse the retribution, how will the soul redeem from its state of forgetfulness?
Miseries and Joys spring from our existence in this world which feels so real to us but in reality it is just an illusion - a dream ! and so similarly the pain and the tortures as well as the escstasies will also feel real in the hereafter...we undergo three phases namely Sleep ; dreams and wakefulness and within these three phases the mind or the ego works and so the "karmic doctrine" operates at all these levels of consciousness...during our lifetime.
So it is possible that the Pir is describing these different phases in a man's life and is prodding man to WAKE UP ! and questioning why are you still "Sleeping"?....wakefulness comes after slumber ..right?
God does not wish to torture any soul but again this is an inexorable law of Nature that man shall be responsible for all his evil behaviour - passion - anger - greed - lust - jealousy and degenerate tendencies and so the spirit will undergo the experience of these sufferings, resulting as retributive consequences, equal in proportion to the karma of the person.
The suffering for each person's spirit will be on varying degrees and not the same, and there are THREE distinct periods during which man suffers tortures....there are Three Retributive phases through which the soul evolves after its detachment from the body until it's re incarnation or salvation (annihilation)....the souls own psychic state will play an important role - there will be no external things to influence the outcome...the end result will merely depend on the state of the soul itself and this means that in all the Three phases, the sinner suffers pain in proportion to the degree of the sinful state of the soul and a good soul will evolve through these three phases depending on the degree of moral achievements of piety and goodness....to a sacred soul these periods may seem blissful - to a sinner, just the opposite and prolonged....after which one's spiritual destiny is determined based on the karmic experiences undergone during these Three phases
The suffering for each person's spirit will be on varying degrees and not the same, and there are THREE distinct periods during which man suffers tortures....there are Three Retributive phases through which the soul evolves after its detachment from the body until it's re incarnation or salvation (annihilation)....the souls own psychic state will play an important role - there will be no external things to influence the outcome...the end result will merely depend on the state of the soul itself and this means that in all the Three phases, the sinner suffers pain in proportion to the degree of the sinful state of the soul and a good soul will evolve through these three phases depending on the degree of moral achievements of piety and goodness....to a sacred soul these periods may seem blissful - to a sinner, just the opposite and prolonged....after which one's spiritual destiny is determined based on the karmic experiences undergone during these Three phases
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shiraz.virani
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sister znanwalla said :
Pluralis majestatis ("majestic plural") is the plural pronoun where it is used to refer to one person alone. This is also known as the "royal we" or the "Victorian we" because it has usually been restricted to august personages such as monarchs, bishops, Popes, and university rectors. The reason behind the pluralis majestatis is the idea that a monarch or other high official ALWAYS SPEAKS FOR HIS OR HER PEOPLE.
Examples of purported instances:
We are not amused. Queen Victoria (in at least one account of this quotation, though, she was not speaking for herself alone, BUT FOR THE LADIES OF THE COURT.)
We are a grandmother. Margaret Thatcher announcing the birth of Mark Thatcher’s son Michael in 1990.
We are thus led also to a definition of "time" in physics. Albert Einstein
The royal we (Pluralis Majestatis) is the first-person plural pronoun when used by an important personage to refer to himself or herself. Its best known usage is by a monarch such as a king, queen, or pope. It is also used in certain formal contexts by bishops and university rectors.
In the public situations in which it is used, the monarch or other dignitary is typically speaking, NOT IN HIS OWN PROPER PERSON, BUT AS LEADER OF A NATION OR INSTITUTION. Nevertheless, the habit of referring to leaders in the plural has influenced the grammar of several languages, in which plural forms tend to be perceived as deferential and more polite than singular forms. This grammatical feature is called a T-V distinction.
The editorial we is a similar phenomenon, in which editorial columnists in newspapers and similar commentators in other media refer to themselves as we when giving their opinions. Here, the writer has once more cast himself or herself in the role of spokesman: either FOR THE MEDIA INSTITUTION who employs him, or more generally ON BEHALF OF THE PARTY OR BODY OF CITIZENS who agree with the commentary.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:
The view of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah and of its imams and later generations is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard the Qur’aan from Jibreel, and Jibreel heard it from Allaah. The use of plural forms in such phrases is the style of Arabic speech used to refer to one who is of high standing AND HAS HELPERS WHO OBEY HIM. So if his helpers do something by his command, he says, "we did it". This is like when a king says, "We conquered this land, we defeated this army" and so on. Because he did that through the actions of his helpers. Allaah is the Lord of the angels and they speak not until He has spoken, and they act in accordance with His commands; they do not disobey the commands of Allaah, rather they do what He commands. Moreover He is their Creator and the creator of their deeds and their power. But He has no need of them; He is not like a king whose helpers do things by their own strength. So what He says when He does something through His angels is, "We did it", this is more appropriate and He is more entitled to say it than some king.
This plural form is ambiguous and the Christians try to use it as evidence against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when they find such phrases in the Qur’aan as "Verily, We have given you (O Muhammad) a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], etc. But Allaah condemned them for ignoring the clear verses in the Qur’aan which state that God is One, but they cling to the ambiguous verses which may be interpreted as referring to one who has a peer with him, or to one who has helpers who are his slaves and creation. They follow the ambiguous verses, seeking to stir up confusion in this manner. This is confusion in the heart, by thinking that there are many gods, and seeking to twist the meaning.
sister i dunno about others but i sure can try to answer this question....insha allah !!!Virani, can you please explain why Allah refers to HIS own First Person as WE/US/OURS ? The Mullahs argue that Allah is showing "Adhab" by giving Himself RESPECT....so when I ask them a clarifying question as to why HE uses "I" intermittently and does this mean that HE the exalted is downgrading Himself, they run away.....Also...
Pluralis majestatis ("majestic plural") is the plural pronoun where it is used to refer to one person alone. This is also known as the "royal we" or the "Victorian we" because it has usually been restricted to august personages such as monarchs, bishops, Popes, and university rectors. The reason behind the pluralis majestatis is the idea that a monarch or other high official ALWAYS SPEAKS FOR HIS OR HER PEOPLE.
Examples of purported instances:
We are not amused. Queen Victoria (in at least one account of this quotation, though, she was not speaking for herself alone, BUT FOR THE LADIES OF THE COURT.)
We are a grandmother. Margaret Thatcher announcing the birth of Mark Thatcher’s son Michael in 1990.
We are thus led also to a definition of "time" in physics. Albert Einstein
The royal we (Pluralis Majestatis) is the first-person plural pronoun when used by an important personage to refer to himself or herself. Its best known usage is by a monarch such as a king, queen, or pope. It is also used in certain formal contexts by bishops and university rectors.
In the public situations in which it is used, the monarch or other dignitary is typically speaking, NOT IN HIS OWN PROPER PERSON, BUT AS LEADER OF A NATION OR INSTITUTION. Nevertheless, the habit of referring to leaders in the plural has influenced the grammar of several languages, in which plural forms tend to be perceived as deferential and more polite than singular forms. This grammatical feature is called a T-V distinction.
The editorial we is a similar phenomenon, in which editorial columnists in newspapers and similar commentators in other media refer to themselves as we when giving their opinions. Here, the writer has once more cast himself or herself in the role of spokesman: either FOR THE MEDIA INSTITUTION who employs him, or more generally ON BEHALF OF THE PARTY OR BODY OF CITIZENS who agree with the commentary.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said:
The view of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah and of its imams and later generations is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard the Qur’aan from Jibreel, and Jibreel heard it from Allaah. The use of plural forms in such phrases is the style of Arabic speech used to refer to one who is of high standing AND HAS HELPERS WHO OBEY HIM. So if his helpers do something by his command, he says, "we did it". This is like when a king says, "We conquered this land, we defeated this army" and so on. Because he did that through the actions of his helpers. Allaah is the Lord of the angels and they speak not until He has spoken, and they act in accordance with His commands; they do not disobey the commands of Allaah, rather they do what He commands. Moreover He is their Creator and the creator of their deeds and their power. But He has no need of them; He is not like a king whose helpers do things by their own strength. So what He says when He does something through His angels is, "We did it", this is more appropriate and He is more entitled to say it than some king.
This plural form is ambiguous and the Christians try to use it as evidence against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when they find such phrases in the Qur’aan as "Verily, We have given you (O Muhammad) a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], etc. But Allaah condemned them for ignoring the clear verses in the Qur’aan which state that God is One, but they cling to the ambiguous verses which may be interpreted as referring to one who has a peer with him, or to one who has helpers who are his slaves and creation. They follow the ambiguous verses, seeking to stir up confusion in this manner. This is confusion in the heart, by thinking that there are many gods, and seeking to twist the meaning.
Virani,
"...AND HAS HELPERS WHO OBEY HIM. So if his helpers do something by his command, he says, "we did it". This is like when a king says, "We conquered this land, we defeated this army" and so on. Because he did that through the actions of his helpers...."
So the "Majestic plural" refers to whom? Allah and HIS "helpers" (to use your own expression)....so you concede HE has "helpers" ? but they are NOT necessarily HIS "partners" ( or are they?) and so if one deals with the "Helpers" and obeys them and follows them, is it Shirk? if not why not? where does the "Command" as you put it or "AMR" originate from? ...simpy stated, this Majestic plural carries a definitive intent and so the importance and respect given (as you say so) is not singular but pluralistic in nature and encompasses the AMR or helpers HE has and so if this is true then is the Amr not considered divine if it originates from the divine itself and you say that it does calling them HELPERS in your lingo....let me know.....Thanks...
"...AND HAS HELPERS WHO OBEY HIM. So if his helpers do something by his command, he says, "we did it". This is like when a king says, "We conquered this land, we defeated this army" and so on. Because he did that through the actions of his helpers...."
So the "Majestic plural" refers to whom? Allah and HIS "helpers" (to use your own expression)....so you concede HE has "helpers" ? but they are NOT necessarily HIS "partners" ( or are they?) and so if one deals with the "Helpers" and obeys them and follows them, is it Shirk? if not why not? where does the "Command" as you put it or "AMR" originate from? ...simpy stated, this Majestic plural carries a definitive intent and so the importance and respect given (as you say so) is not singular but pluralistic in nature and encompasses the AMR or helpers HE has and so if this is true then is the Amr not considered divine if it originates from the divine itself and you say that it does calling them HELPERS in your lingo....let me know.....Thanks...
If you say the "plural" is ambigous then brother you are talking from both ends of your mouth ....
The Koran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33).
It is the universal belief of all the Muslims that the followers of the Prophet are not going to be doomed with extirpation as was the case with the followers of other prophets.
They attribute two reasons for this privileged protection; first that the Prophet was the last of the prophets and if his followers were to be doomed to destruction, there would be no other apostle to raise another nation of believers.
And secondly that the Prophet a Mercy to the whole world.
But on reading the above Koranic verse, one comes to the conclusion that the privilege is restricted only to the life time of the Prophet as it reads: “While you are among them.”
The Prophet is admittedly not among us at present, why then do we still enjoy the privilege?
Any thoughts?
The Koran says: “And God is not going to chastise them while you are, O Muhammd among them” (8:33).
It is the universal belief of all the Muslims that the followers of the Prophet are not going to be doomed with extirpation as was the case with the followers of other prophets.
They attribute two reasons for this privileged protection; first that the Prophet was the last of the prophets and if his followers were to be doomed to destruction, there would be no other apostle to raise another nation of believers.
And secondly that the Prophet a Mercy to the whole world.
But on reading the above Koranic verse, one comes to the conclusion that the privilege is restricted only to the life time of the Prophet as it reads: “While you are among them.”
The Prophet is admittedly not among us at present, why then do we still enjoy the privilege?
Any thoughts?
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shiraz.virani
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sister znanwalla
most of all the word ALLAH itself is soooo unique !!!
The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, Allah, instead of by the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with. If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-Abba’ or ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-Ammi’, or ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam. Allah is a unique word. If you prefix tin before the word God, it becomes tin-God i.e., fake God. Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty.
most of all the word ALLAH itself is soooo unique !!!
The Muslims prefer calling the Supreme Creator, Allah, instead of by the English word ‘God’. The Arabic word, ‘Allah’, is pure and unique, unlike the English word ‘God’, which can be played around with. If you add ‘s’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Gods’, that is the plural of God. Allah is one and singular, there is no plural of Allah. If you add ‘dess’ to the word God, it becomes ‘Goddess’ that is a female God. There is nothing like male Allah or female Allah. Allah has no gender. If you add the word ‘father’ to ‘God’ it becomes ‘God-father’. God-father means someone who is a guardian. There is no word like ‘Allah-Abba’ or ‘Allah-father’. If you add the word ‘mother’ to ‘God’, it becomes ‘God-mother’. There is nothing like ‘Allah-Ammi’, or ‘Allah-mother’ in Islam. Allah is a unique word. If you prefix tin before the word God, it becomes tin-God i.e., fake God. Allah is a unique word, which does not conjure up any mental picture nor can it be played around with. Therefore the Muslims prefer using the Arabic word ‘Allah’ for the Almighty.
Why is the name "Allah" soooo unique ? what did the Supreme God - one who is nameless, create? what does the name "Allah" encompass?
As far as I think, wherever your intellect and reasoning reaches it is everything except HE who is above all else ! for HE stands alone ! and is Unique ! you cannot comprehend HIM - nor name HIm - nor understand HIM - nor Imagine HIM....and you have been commanded to REMEMBER HIm so that HE - the Exalted can guide you to the path of those upon whom HE has bestowed Favours....so go and do some research now....lets not get into semantics unduly....if you want to argue about the english word "God" then let me assure you that there is a special problem in translating from the quran into modern english or any other language as there is no third person pronoun which is perfectly well suited to making reference to the Transcendant God beyond all human conceptions and so the ultimate shortcoming of any other language or word or words translated by narrators is natural and not peculiar....and so HUWA/HU is best referred to as GOD in english so as to avoid short circuiting some segments of the modern audience who are at a rudimentary stage like you are and who may feel alienated due to their own perception of a "masculine" bias of the Imaage and calling HE or HIM....and so "God" becomes neutral to them at least....
As far as I think, wherever your intellect and reasoning reaches it is everything except HE who is above all else ! for HE stands alone ! and is Unique ! you cannot comprehend HIM - nor name HIm - nor understand HIM - nor Imagine HIM....and you have been commanded to REMEMBER HIm so that HE - the Exalted can guide you to the path of those upon whom HE has bestowed Favours....so go and do some research now....lets not get into semantics unduly....if you want to argue about the english word "God" then let me assure you that there is a special problem in translating from the quran into modern english or any other language as there is no third person pronoun which is perfectly well suited to making reference to the Transcendant God beyond all human conceptions and so the ultimate shortcoming of any other language or word or words translated by narrators is natural and not peculiar....and so HUWA/HU is best referred to as GOD in english so as to avoid short circuiting some segments of the modern audience who are at a rudimentary stage like you are and who may feel alienated due to their own perception of a "masculine" bias of the Imaage and calling HE or HIM....and so "God" becomes neutral to them at least....
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shiraz.virani
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sister znanwalla said :
i guess you just read quran without understanding it.....there are so many verses that talk about judgement day, do you think god will spare you on judgement day just because you're a muslim ?? or is he gonna be like ok mr.x you did adultery,murdered innocent non muslims etc etc but just because you believed in imam , ILL SPARE YOU
sister on the day of judgement you TONGUE will speak for itself.....the book of deeds will be brought into account and since god is merciful he'll judge you on your deeds....NOT FOR SOME IMAM[AS] OR RASOOL[SAW] OR SOME MULLAH
the job of imam[as] , rasool[saw] or some mullah is to teach you or show you a path where you can find happiness ....they are not the judge infact they themselves will be judged !!!
And if he (Muhammad) had invented false sayings concerning Us, We would assuredly had taken him by the right hand; and We would have then severed his life artery.( 69:44-46 )
The Prophet is admittedly not among us at present, why then do we still enjoy the privilege?
i guess you just read quran without understanding it.....there are so many verses that talk about judgement day, do you think god will spare you on judgement day just because you're a muslim ?? or is he gonna be like ok mr.x you did adultery,murdered innocent non muslims etc etc but just because you believed in imam , ILL SPARE YOU
sister on the day of judgement you TONGUE will speak for itself.....the book of deeds will be brought into account and since god is merciful he'll judge you on your deeds....NOT FOR SOME IMAM[AS] OR RASOOL[SAW] OR SOME MULLAH
the job of imam[as] , rasool[saw] or some mullah is to teach you or show you a path where you can find happiness ....they are not the judge infact they themselves will be judged !!!
And if he (Muhammad) had invented false sayings concerning Us, We would assuredly had taken him by the right hand; and We would have then severed his life artery.( 69:44-46 )
Virani,
Please stick to the argument...don't digress !....if Allah says that HE will NOT chastise muslims as long as Muhamad is with them ...and now that the Prophet is not there, is Allah chastising the muslims? How can you say that I am reading without understanding? or explain what this ayat means? and then i will show you the second part which I have on purpose held back as I know that you have no clue about the quran...you haven't even answered what the name Allah encompasses? you haven't contested that the Supreme God is nameless...and you have named HIM and then you are trying to imagine HIM too and so isn't that imagination called Shirk? because HE is beyond all that and yet you partnered your imagination to HE who is above all else....don't talk to me about Judgment Day....we are not discussing that issue as of now....stick to the point or concede you do not know the answers
Please stick to the argument...don't digress !....if Allah says that HE will NOT chastise muslims as long as Muhamad is with them ...and now that the Prophet is not there, is Allah chastising the muslims? How can you say that I am reading without understanding? or explain what this ayat means? and then i will show you the second part which I have on purpose held back as I know that you have no clue about the quran...you haven't even answered what the name Allah encompasses? you haven't contested that the Supreme God is nameless...and you have named HIM and then you are trying to imagine HIM too and so isn't that imagination called Shirk? because HE is beyond all that and yet you partnered your imagination to HE who is above all else....don't talk to me about Judgment Day....we are not discussing that issue as of now....stick to the point or concede you do not know the answers
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shiraz.virani
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sister znanwalla said :
Why is the name "Allah" soooo unique ? what did the Supreme God - one who is nameless, create? what does the name "Allah" encompass?
sister znanwalla, its your frustration that bothers me, and since you wanna stick to your own interpretation iam totally ok with that...thats your belief... but please dont call the holy quran as a fairy tale etc etc , because even our 49th imam uses holy quran to make reference in almost all his speeches...
do i have to teach you "ADHAB" now ??
Surah 75:1-2
1. I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
2. And I do call to witness the self-reproaching Spirit.
3. Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
4. Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order, the very tip of his fingers.
5. But man wishes to do wrong (even) in the time in front of him.
6. He questions: "When is the Day of Resurrection?"
7. At length, when the sight is dazed
8. And the moon is buried in darkness
9. And the sun and moon are joined together that Day will Man say;
10. "Where is the refuge?"
11. By no means! No place of safety!"
12. Before the Lord (alone), that Day will be the place of rest.
13. That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back.
14. Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
15. Even though he were to make excuses.
16. Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an), to make haste therewith.
17. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
18. But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital:
19. Nay more, it is for Us to explain it:
20. Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
21. And leave alone the Hereafter.
22. Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty) -
23. Looking towards their Lord;
24. And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,
25. In the thought that some backbreaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;
26. Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collarbone (in its exit),
27. And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?"
28. And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting;
29. And one leg will be joined with another:
30. The Day the Drive will be (all) to thy Lord!
31. So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray! -
32. But on the contrary, he rejected Truth and turned away!
33. Then did he stalk to his family in full conceit!
34. Woe to thee, (O man!), yea, woe!
35. Again, woe to thee, (O man!), yea, woe!
36. Does Man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)?
37. Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
38. Then did he become a clinging clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
39. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
40. Has not he, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?
Why is the name "Allah" soooo unique ? what did the Supreme God - one who is nameless, create? what does the name "Allah" encompass?
As far as I think, wherever your intellect and reasoning reaches it is everything except HE who is above all else ! for HE stands alone ! and is Unique ! you cannot comprehend HIM - nor name HIm - nor understand HIM - nor Imagine HIM....and you have been commanded to REMEMBER HIm so that HE - the Exalted can guide you to the path of those upon whom HE has bestowed Favours....so go and do some research now....lets not get into semantics unduly....if you want to argue about the english word "God" then let me assure you that there is a special problem in translating from the quran into modern english or any other language as there is no third person pronoun which is perfectly well suited to making reference to the Transcendant God beyond all human conceptions and so the ultimate shortcoming of any other language or word or words translated by narrators is natural and not peculiar....and so HUWA/HU is best referred to as GOD in english so as to avoid short circuiting some segments of the modern audience who are at a rudimentary stage like you are and who may feel alienated due to their own perception of a "masculine" bias of the Imaage and calling HE or HIM....and so "God" becomes neutral to them at least....
sister znanwalla, its your frustration that bothers me, and since you wanna stick to your own interpretation iam totally ok with that...thats your belief... but please dont call the holy quran as a fairy tale etc etc , because even our 49th imam uses holy quran to make reference in almost all his speeches...
do i have to teach you "ADHAB" now ??
Surah 75:1-2
1. I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
2. And I do call to witness the self-reproaching Spirit.
3. Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
4. Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order, the very tip of his fingers.
5. But man wishes to do wrong (even) in the time in front of him.
6. He questions: "When is the Day of Resurrection?"
7. At length, when the sight is dazed
8. And the moon is buried in darkness
9. And the sun and moon are joined together that Day will Man say;
10. "Where is the refuge?"
11. By no means! No place of safety!"
12. Before the Lord (alone), that Day will be the place of rest.
13. That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back.
14. Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
15. Even though he were to make excuses.
16. Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an), to make haste therewith.
17. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
18. But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital:
19. Nay more, it is for Us to explain it:
20. Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
21. And leave alone the Hereafter.
22. Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty) -
23. Looking towards their Lord;
24. And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,
25. In the thought that some backbreaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;
26. Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collarbone (in its exit),
27. And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?"
28. And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting;
29. And one leg will be joined with another:
30. The Day the Drive will be (all) to thy Lord!
31. So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray! -
32. But on the contrary, he rejected Truth and turned away!
33. Then did he stalk to his family in full conceit!
34. Woe to thee, (O man!), yea, woe!
35. Again, woe to thee, (O man!), yea, woe!
36. Does Man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)?
37. Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
38. Then did he become a clinging clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
39. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
40. Has not he, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?