Shia belief & Ismaili belief
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Shia belief & Ismaili belief
<P>We (Ismailies) believe that we were with other shias at least until Imam 11 or 12. At that time Ishansharies separated.Bohris and Ismailies had same belief until about 20 Imams.<BR><BR>My question is, if our belief was same as other shias at least until Imam Hussain, why don't we believe that Hazrat Hasan (other son of H. Ali) was imam. All shias, including Bohris and Ishnasharies believe H. Hasan as imam. We, Ismailis are the o­nly sect that does not believe Hazrat Hasan as imam. That means, we Ismailies, separated from rest of the Shias after H. Ali. </P>
This issue has been discussed under:
Doctrines --> Why was hazrat hasan not made imam even though he was older
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 61&start=0
You may want to go there....
Doctrines --> Why was hazrat hasan not made imam even though he was older
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 61&start=0
You may want to go there....
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star_munir
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Dear Rafiq,
Ismailis do consider Hazrat Hasan as Imam. However, Ismaili theology holds two types of Imams - the Permanent Imam (al-imam al-mustaqarr) and the Entrusted Imam (al-imam al-mustwada). And Imam Hasan is of the latter type of Imam.
The Permanent Imam is the hereditary Imam whose Imamat continues permanently among his male descendants, generation after generation.
The Entrusted Imam is an Imam whose Imamat is entrusted and temporary in that it does not permanently continue in his lineage. The Entrusted Imam is appointed by the Permanent Imam to assume the authority (amr) of the Jamat in special times and circumstances.
Imam Hasan was the Entrusted Imam and Imam Husayn was the Permanent Imam after Imam 'Ali. The Isma'ili Du'a only lists the names of the Permanent Imams but not the Entrusted Imams. Nevertheless it is still proper to refer to Hasan as an "Imam" - infact, Imam Sultan Muhammad Sah and our Pirs in the Ginans and Old Du'a still refer to Hasan as "Imam Hasan".
In addition, Imam Hasan was also the Pir (supreme hujja) - which is a different function than that of Entrusted Imam - although both can overlap in a single person.
For the record, the Isma'ili Shi'a separated from the Twelver Shi'a upn the death of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq where the Isma'iliyyah followed Mawlana Isma'il ibn Ja'far, the designated successor, as the Imam while the Twelvers followed Musa al-Kadim the half brother of Isma'il.
Ismailis do consider Hazrat Hasan as Imam. However, Ismaili theology holds two types of Imams - the Permanent Imam (al-imam al-mustaqarr) and the Entrusted Imam (al-imam al-mustwada). And Imam Hasan is of the latter type of Imam.
The Permanent Imam is the hereditary Imam whose Imamat continues permanently among his male descendants, generation after generation.
The Entrusted Imam is an Imam whose Imamat is entrusted and temporary in that it does not permanently continue in his lineage. The Entrusted Imam is appointed by the Permanent Imam to assume the authority (amr) of the Jamat in special times and circumstances.
Imam Hasan was the Entrusted Imam and Imam Husayn was the Permanent Imam after Imam 'Ali. The Isma'ili Du'a only lists the names of the Permanent Imams but not the Entrusted Imams. Nevertheless it is still proper to refer to Hasan as an "Imam" - infact, Imam Sultan Muhammad Sah and our Pirs in the Ginans and Old Du'a still refer to Hasan as "Imam Hasan".
In addition, Imam Hasan was also the Pir (supreme hujja) - which is a different function than that of Entrusted Imam - although both can overlap in a single person.
For the record, the Isma'ili Shi'a separated from the Twelver Shi'a upn the death of Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq where the Isma'iliyyah followed Mawlana Isma'il ibn Ja'far, the designated successor, as the Imam while the Twelvers followed Musa al-Kadim the half brother of Isma'il.
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star_munir
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I think the expression Entrusted Imam does not convey the meaning of Imam Mustawda.
Hazrat Hassan [also called Imam Mustawda] was PIR [that is a Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah] while Hazrat Hussain was Imam [Mustakar].
Imam Mustawda is what we call PIR [as in the list of authoritative Pirs] from the list in the Asal Dua [which is an accepted Ismaili source.]
Imam Mustawda is not a status different from PIR or overlapping with the status of PIR. It is just a change of vocabulary from one language to another and from one era to another.
Admin
Hazrat Hassan [also called Imam Mustawda] was PIR [that is a Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah] while Hazrat Hussain was Imam [Mustakar].
Imam Mustawda is what we call PIR [as in the list of authoritative Pirs] from the list in the Asal Dua [which is an accepted Ismaili source.]
Imam Mustawda is not a status different from PIR or overlapping with the status of PIR. It is just a change of vocabulary from one language to another and from one era to another.
Admin
In my opinion MSMS refers to Hazarat Hasan as the ‘Imam’ to accommodate the capacity of most Shias who associate Imamat with Caliphate. Hazarat Hasan was a Caliph the role he inherited from his father, and hence he is regarded by most Shias as the second Imam. But essentially he was the Pir and he was only the ‘Imam’ in the sense of being a Caliph as well.
Hazarat Muhammad was essentially a Pir of the Ismailis but he was known as a Prophet by the wider Umma, hence even in Ismailism he is referred to as Prophet Muhammad rather then Pir Muhammad.
MSMS refers to Pir Hasan as the ‘Imam’ in that sense. Also we have to bear in mind that the doctrine of Imamat in the sense of inheritance through nass did not crystallize until the time of Imam al-Baqir. Because of this ambiguity Hazarat Hasan could have been referred to as the Imam even by the early Ismailis.
Hazarat Muhammad was essentially a Pir of the Ismailis but he was known as a Prophet by the wider Umma, hence even in Ismailism he is referred to as Prophet Muhammad rather then Pir Muhammad.
MSMS refers to Pir Hasan as the ‘Imam’ in that sense. Also we have to bear in mind that the doctrine of Imamat in the sense of inheritance through nass did not crystallize until the time of Imam al-Baqir. Because of this ambiguity Hazarat Hasan could have been referred to as the Imam even by the early Ismailis.
"...We (Ismailies) believe that we were with other shias at least until Imam 11 or 12. At that time Ishansharies separated..."
I am not sure where the above belief comes from? As far as I know and understand...Asnasharies (or twelvers) believe in Musa Kazim as their Imam and end up with Muhamad al Muntazar (also called Mehdi) their twelth Imam who disappeared and is supposed to re appear on the Day of Judgement.....whereas those who followed Ismail are the ismailis and today since 1400 years their line of Imamat still continues....thereafter we have more specifically come to be known as NIZARI Ismailis after the split and the Bohoras are called MUSTEALI Ismailis.
As far as I believe, the Imam is the foundation and the cause, the Pir is the NATIQ, the conversant and acts as the deputy or the "messenger". The Imam is the HUJJATULLAH and the KHALIFTULLAH, but the Pir is the HUJJATUL - IMAM and the KHALIFATUR-RASOOLULLAH...the Pir is the Link between the followers and the Imam
Naboowat ended but DAWA continued through the Pirs and the Pir "Imam" Hasan was the beloved grandson of the Prophet and our Imam has clarified this for us all at Mundra, Cutch in November 1903.
Many learned theologians are generally addressed as Imams or Mowlana e.g Imam Shafai; Imam Ghazali; Imam Bukhari; Mowlana Rumi; Mowlana Jami....similarly we say Pir Nassir Khusrao; Pir Sabzali ; Pir Ismail Gangji...this simply implies respect for them and acknowledges their high status....so what is wrong if one calls Hasan as Pir Imam Hasan?
Imams are designated through a clear NASS and Imam Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Hussain as the next Imam, as per our belief.
Now if the other Sh'ias take him to be their second Imam then so be it...each man to his own belief...they are liberty to pursue their own belief...there is no compulsion in religion and Allah guides unto HIS Noor whomsoever HE Wills.
The Pir guides you like a parent guides his children...they are Sayyids too...they teach their followers spirituality and gnosis...
They are guides also and the word Imam carries many shades of meanings, one being a guide also...one who leads the way....
Submission to the Pir leads to an understanding about the importance of Obedience which Allah dictates in the quran....Obey the Ulil Amr !
I am not sure where the above belief comes from? As far as I know and understand...Asnasharies (or twelvers) believe in Musa Kazim as their Imam and end up with Muhamad al Muntazar (also called Mehdi) their twelth Imam who disappeared and is supposed to re appear on the Day of Judgement.....whereas those who followed Ismail are the ismailis and today since 1400 years their line of Imamat still continues....thereafter we have more specifically come to be known as NIZARI Ismailis after the split and the Bohoras are called MUSTEALI Ismailis.
As far as I believe, the Imam is the foundation and the cause, the Pir is the NATIQ, the conversant and acts as the deputy or the "messenger". The Imam is the HUJJATULLAH and the KHALIFTULLAH, but the Pir is the HUJJATUL - IMAM and the KHALIFATUR-RASOOLULLAH...the Pir is the Link between the followers and the Imam
Naboowat ended but DAWA continued through the Pirs and the Pir "Imam" Hasan was the beloved grandson of the Prophet and our Imam has clarified this for us all at Mundra, Cutch in November 1903.
Many learned theologians are generally addressed as Imams or Mowlana e.g Imam Shafai; Imam Ghazali; Imam Bukhari; Mowlana Rumi; Mowlana Jami....similarly we say Pir Nassir Khusrao; Pir Sabzali ; Pir Ismail Gangji...this simply implies respect for them and acknowledges their high status....so what is wrong if one calls Hasan as Pir Imam Hasan?
Imams are designated through a clear NASS and Imam Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Hussain as the next Imam, as per our belief.
Now if the other Sh'ias take him to be their second Imam then so be it...each man to his own belief...they are liberty to pursue their own belief...there is no compulsion in religion and Allah guides unto HIS Noor whomsoever HE Wills.
The Pir guides you like a parent guides his children...they are Sayyids too...they teach their followers spirituality and gnosis...
They are guides also and the word Imam carries many shades of meanings, one being a guide also...one who leads the way....
Submission to the Pir leads to an understanding about the importance of Obedience which Allah dictates in the quran....Obey the Ulil Amr !
Excellent post Znanwalla. Please allow me to expand further.
One of the fundamental beliefs of Shiites is the need of a living Imam at all times. Imam SMS has said in one of his farmans that this world can not survive even for a moment without a physical Imam. Prophet Mohammad has said that one who dies without knowing the Imam of his time dies the death of jahiliyya. Now that it is established that an Imam must be present at all times let us take it a step further.
Imamat is an institution created by Allah and was promised to Abraham in his lineage (only the righteous). This lineage produced prophets and Imams and for muslims the last of the prophets Mohammad came from this lineage through Abdul Mutallib. The seeds of Naboowat and Imamat were separated from there into his two sons, Abdullah (Mohammad’s father) and Abu Talib (Ali’s father). This institution was further confirmed by Allah and his prophet, Mohammad in surah 33 (Al-Ahzaab) of the holy Quran and named Ahl-ul-Bayt.
It is important to note that throughout the history of Islam there have never been two Imams at one time except for the confusion over Imam Hussain and Imam Hassan. The difference in the type of Imams was well explained by others here before my post, especially Znanwalla. To prove or confirm that Imam Hussain was the Imam Mustakar one only needs to see whose line the next Imam came from taking into consideration that an Imam must be present at all times. No one from the progeny of Imam Hassan ever claimed to be the rightful Imam after Imam Hassan (atleast not to my knowledge).
To those who follow the strict sunnah (sharia) of the Prophet the position of Pir (Imam Mustawda) is difficult to accept or understand. To them Imam is a general term as explained by Znanwalla. Although Shiites in general follow the Sunnah they accept the concept of Imamat only. Piratan is unheard of in their beliefs. After Prophet Mohammad there was no Nabi but his work of dawah was entrusted to the “entrusted Imam” or the office of the Pir. The word Pir has its roots in Persian language and not Arabic therefore the word pir never existed in Arabia at that time and hence we have Imam Mustakar and Imam Mustawda. The alternative word for Pir would be Hujjat in Arabic.
Although the 12vers do not have the concept of Hujjat, the Bohras do believe in the office of the Hujjat, however, they call him the Dai and not Pir. Dai is a lower rank than that of Pir and would be sub-ordinate to Pir who is the Hujjat of Imam of the time. Alternatively the Pir is the head of the department for dawah. Dais would be field representatives of Pir. For Ismailis both the offices of Imam and Pir are held by the current Imam. The missionaries in our tariqa are carrying out the work of Dai.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.
One of the fundamental beliefs of Shiites is the need of a living Imam at all times. Imam SMS has said in one of his farmans that this world can not survive even for a moment without a physical Imam. Prophet Mohammad has said that one who dies without knowing the Imam of his time dies the death of jahiliyya. Now that it is established that an Imam must be present at all times let us take it a step further.
Imamat is an institution created by Allah and was promised to Abraham in his lineage (only the righteous). This lineage produced prophets and Imams and for muslims the last of the prophets Mohammad came from this lineage through Abdul Mutallib. The seeds of Naboowat and Imamat were separated from there into his two sons, Abdullah (Mohammad’s father) and Abu Talib (Ali’s father). This institution was further confirmed by Allah and his prophet, Mohammad in surah 33 (Al-Ahzaab) of the holy Quran and named Ahl-ul-Bayt.
It is important to note that throughout the history of Islam there have never been two Imams at one time except for the confusion over Imam Hussain and Imam Hassan. The difference in the type of Imams was well explained by others here before my post, especially Znanwalla. To prove or confirm that Imam Hussain was the Imam Mustakar one only needs to see whose line the next Imam came from taking into consideration that an Imam must be present at all times. No one from the progeny of Imam Hassan ever claimed to be the rightful Imam after Imam Hassan (atleast not to my knowledge).
To those who follow the strict sunnah (sharia) of the Prophet the position of Pir (Imam Mustawda) is difficult to accept or understand. To them Imam is a general term as explained by Znanwalla. Although Shiites in general follow the Sunnah they accept the concept of Imamat only. Piratan is unheard of in their beliefs. After Prophet Mohammad there was no Nabi but his work of dawah was entrusted to the “entrusted Imam” or the office of the Pir. The word Pir has its roots in Persian language and not Arabic therefore the word pir never existed in Arabia at that time and hence we have Imam Mustakar and Imam Mustawda. The alternative word for Pir would be Hujjat in Arabic.
Although the 12vers do not have the concept of Hujjat, the Bohras do believe in the office of the Hujjat, however, they call him the Dai and not Pir. Dai is a lower rank than that of Pir and would be sub-ordinate to Pir who is the Hujjat of Imam of the time. Alternatively the Pir is the head of the department for dawah. Dais would be field representatives of Pir. For Ismailis both the offices of Imam and Pir are held by the current Imam. The missionaries in our tariqa are carrying out the work of Dai.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.
It is clear from the Sh'ia hadith literature that Imamah is an investiture from birth; it does not get “switched around.”
No prophet has ever lost his Prophethood, and no Imam has ever lost his Imamah before !
Changing the Imamah would involve completely changing the very nature of a person.
If we look at Mawla Ali, we see that if Imamah were somehow taken away from him, then for all intents and purposes he would cease to be Ali.
When one sees how lofty the station of Imamah is, it becomes impossible to switch around...
Anybody who understands the esoteric reality underlying Imamah will see this, and will understand that there can be no “change of mind” or switching around, concerning this issue.
This is made absolutely clear from the famous “Luminous Knowledge” sermon of Imam Ali
The Imam is the Imam from birth; his Imamah is ontological .Imamah is a very different affair; it is a basic maxim of Shi’ism that Imamah is not subject to abrogation or change.
If Imam Husain had not been given the Nass, then the Ismailis would have had no reason to invent any bizarre doctrine to claim Imam Husain's Imamat.
Also Hasan and Husain were brothers and not issues or remoter issues , one to the other....if Hasan was the actual Imam then the next Imam would be from his own issues, having a well established family relationship and Imamat would not move sideways as opposed to downwards from father to son !
The next Imam was Zainul Abeedeen ...
After the martyrdoom of Imam Husayn the Shi'as became divided in their opinion.
Some gave their loyalty to Imam Zainul Abideen and others gave to Muhamad al Hanafiya , a son of Hazrat Ali by another wife. Muhammad al Hanafiya gave his own Bayat to Abdul malik bin Marwan, the Umayad Caliph.
After Muhamad al Hanafiya died his followers considered his son Abul Hashim as their Imam and when Abul Hashim's death became near, he passed over his right of Imamat to Ali bin Abdullah bin Abbas and Ali bin Abdullah bin Abbas then designated his son Muhamad bin Ali as a successor.
Now interestingly enough, Muhamad bin Ali having all the time believed that the "movement" was originally started in favour of those from Ali's sons who were from Fatima, felt that this "shifting" of Imamat to the House of Abbas wasn't digestable.
He thus collected all his Shi'a supporters and told them to form a "Missionary" order to propagate in favour of the Ahl al Bayt without naming anyone, as such.
However his own intent wasn't as sincere also and so he thought that when the time comes he will easily be able to capture power and thus they started to attract the Shite supporters of Hazrat Ali's family who were obviously misled by the Abbasids.
No prophet has ever lost his Prophethood, and no Imam has ever lost his Imamah before !
Changing the Imamah would involve completely changing the very nature of a person.
If we look at Mawla Ali, we see that if Imamah were somehow taken away from him, then for all intents and purposes he would cease to be Ali.
When one sees how lofty the station of Imamah is, it becomes impossible to switch around...
Anybody who understands the esoteric reality underlying Imamah will see this, and will understand that there can be no “change of mind” or switching around, concerning this issue.
This is made absolutely clear from the famous “Luminous Knowledge” sermon of Imam Ali
The Imam is the Imam from birth; his Imamah is ontological .Imamah is a very different affair; it is a basic maxim of Shi’ism that Imamah is not subject to abrogation or change.
If Imam Husain had not been given the Nass, then the Ismailis would have had no reason to invent any bizarre doctrine to claim Imam Husain's Imamat.
Also Hasan and Husain were brothers and not issues or remoter issues , one to the other....if Hasan was the actual Imam then the next Imam would be from his own issues, having a well established family relationship and Imamat would not move sideways as opposed to downwards from father to son !
The next Imam was Zainul Abeedeen ...
After the martyrdoom of Imam Husayn the Shi'as became divided in their opinion.
Some gave their loyalty to Imam Zainul Abideen and others gave to Muhamad al Hanafiya , a son of Hazrat Ali by another wife. Muhammad al Hanafiya gave his own Bayat to Abdul malik bin Marwan, the Umayad Caliph.
After Muhamad al Hanafiya died his followers considered his son Abul Hashim as their Imam and when Abul Hashim's death became near, he passed over his right of Imamat to Ali bin Abdullah bin Abbas and Ali bin Abdullah bin Abbas then designated his son Muhamad bin Ali as a successor.
Now interestingly enough, Muhamad bin Ali having all the time believed that the "movement" was originally started in favour of those from Ali's sons who were from Fatima, felt that this "shifting" of Imamat to the House of Abbas wasn't digestable.
He thus collected all his Shi'a supporters and told them to form a "Missionary" order to propagate in favour of the Ahl al Bayt without naming anyone, as such.
However his own intent wasn't as sincere also and so he thought that when the time comes he will easily be able to capture power and thus they started to attract the Shite supporters of Hazrat Ali's family who were obviously misled by the Abbasids.
There are certain Ismailis (on this website) who hold the belief that the Prophet (saw) has the function of the 'Entrusted Imam'. This belief seems to imply that he is below the Imam, who is the 'Permanent Imam', since the latter office is higher than the former one, as these people explain. Now, is this belief something that is shared by all Ismailis across the board regardless of the tradition they from or just some of them, particularely the tradition the arose out of the Indian subcontinent? What is your belief, if it's different, regarding the matter?Kandani wrote: However, Ismaili theology holds two types of Imams - the Permanent Imam (al-imam al-mustaqarr) and the Entrusted Imam (al-imam al-mustwada).
Ismailism has the same diversity and pluralism as is reflected in other branches of Islam in general.
Except that Ismailism allow people to share, debate and discuss their interpretation of faith and ultimately recognizes that Allah has the power to guide whom he wants.
Something that many branches of Islam do not allow, approve or recognize.
And if you believe, like we do, that Allah has the power to guide whom he wants, He surely has a reason to have guided you to this web site out of the many millions that exist
Except that Ismailism allow people to share, debate and discuss their interpretation of faith and ultimately recognizes that Allah has the power to guide whom he wants.
Something that many branches of Islam do not allow, approve or recognize.
And if you believe, like we do, that Allah has the power to guide whom he wants, He surely has a reason to have guided you to this web site out of the many millions that exist
Good response Nagib !
According to some ridiculous, illogical and wrong notions , some group of men began to interpret Quran from their sectarian point of view and began to style themselves as Ulama and Ahl-uz-Zikr and these Ulama further cut up the Muslims into various sects according to their own school or method of thought.
Now every Mulla of a mosque, who does not know what is beyond his nose, claims to interpret the Quran and styles himself Alim.
What can the relationship of Light be with Light? or the two sides of the same coin?
Islam invites people to reflect and ponder and so the "divergent views" are individual in nature and healthy and they do not necessarily reflect the views of any others or the community itself... people only learn when they tax their own intellect and that of others and seek knowledge instead of following blindly....this is what is a free will which Allah has allowed to mankind...
Imam Abdul Alim Musa of Masjid al-Islam (Washington, DC) -his lectures on the Ahlul Bayt have been by far the most amazing and compelling stories of a convert who was lied to and deceived by the "Imams" that brought him to Islam in prison.
The books they gave to him, he says, delibrately had mistranslations so to mask the importance of the Ahlul Bayt; instead of "People of the House" Ahlul Bayt (as) was translated as "followers of the Prophet."
According to some ridiculous, illogical and wrong notions , some group of men began to interpret Quran from their sectarian point of view and began to style themselves as Ulama and Ahl-uz-Zikr and these Ulama further cut up the Muslims into various sects according to their own school or method of thought.
Now every Mulla of a mosque, who does not know what is beyond his nose, claims to interpret the Quran and styles himself Alim.
What can the relationship of Light be with Light? or the two sides of the same coin?
Islam invites people to reflect and ponder and so the "divergent views" are individual in nature and healthy and they do not necessarily reflect the views of any others or the community itself... people only learn when they tax their own intellect and that of others and seek knowledge instead of following blindly....this is what is a free will which Allah has allowed to mankind...
Imam Abdul Alim Musa of Masjid al-Islam (Washington, DC) -his lectures on the Ahlul Bayt have been by far the most amazing and compelling stories of a convert who was lied to and deceived by the "Imams" that brought him to Islam in prison.
The books they gave to him, he says, delibrately had mistranslations so to mask the importance of the Ahlul Bayt; instead of "People of the House" Ahlul Bayt (as) was translated as "followers of the Prophet."
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arshad1988
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First, you say "Good response..." to Nagib who talks about the diversity and pluralism as reflected in other branches of Islam, and then, you talk about "ridiculous, illogical and wrong notions"...how does this mean you support Nagib's answer in any way, since you believe other notions to be wrong, indicating that you do not accept the diversity of interpretations?znanwalla wrote:Good response Nagib !
According to some ridiculous, illogical and wrong notions...
The position of Pir and Entrusted Imam are not the same thing. They are vastly different. The only Ismaili author who equates them is Abualy Aziz - while the Ismaili authors of the earlier periods never equated the two positions.
The Entrusted Imam, when appointed is the holder of authority over the Jama'at while the Permanent Imam remains silent (samit).
In terms of spiritual purity, the Permanent and Entrusted Imam are on the same level. The only difference between them is the Imamat does not dwell in the progeny of the Entrusted Imam.
And yes, Entrusted Imam is the english translation of Imam al-Mustawda.
The difference between Pir and Entrusted Imam is that the Pir is a permanent rank (hadd) in the Hudud al-Din and is second to the Imam. Sometimes, the Imam also holds the rank of Pir to himself - such as the case today with Imam Shah Karim.
The Entrusted Imam position exists only in certain circumstances. Such as Imam Hasan with Imam Husayn. Imam Muminshah with Imam Qasimshah, etc.
At the time of Prophet Muhammad, he himself was both the Entrusted Imam and the Pir. Imam Ali was the Permanent Imam who remained silent and served as the wasi (successor) and bab (gate ) of Muhammad.
When the Prophet Muhammad died, the Imamat reverted back to the Permanent Imam - Hazrat Ali. The office of Pir passed on to Hazrat Hasan who succeeded Muhammad as Pir.
When 'Ali died, Pir Imam Hasan became the Entrusted Imam (and he was already the Pir) while the Permanent Imam Husayn remained silent.
When Hasan died, the Imamat reverted to the Permanent Imam, Imam Husayn. The Piratan was passed on to one of the sons of Pir Imam Hasan.
All the above is documented in Shafique Virani's book The Ismailis in the Middle Ages. I have not quoted direct source for the sake of brevity.
The Entrusted Imam, when appointed is the holder of authority over the Jama'at while the Permanent Imam remains silent (samit).
In terms of spiritual purity, the Permanent and Entrusted Imam are on the same level. The only difference between them is the Imamat does not dwell in the progeny of the Entrusted Imam.
And yes, Entrusted Imam is the english translation of Imam al-Mustawda.
The difference between Pir and Entrusted Imam is that the Pir is a permanent rank (hadd) in the Hudud al-Din and is second to the Imam. Sometimes, the Imam also holds the rank of Pir to himself - such as the case today with Imam Shah Karim.
The Entrusted Imam position exists only in certain circumstances. Such as Imam Hasan with Imam Husayn. Imam Muminshah with Imam Qasimshah, etc.
At the time of Prophet Muhammad, he himself was both the Entrusted Imam and the Pir. Imam Ali was the Permanent Imam who remained silent and served as the wasi (successor) and bab (gate ) of Muhammad.
When the Prophet Muhammad died, the Imamat reverted back to the Permanent Imam - Hazrat Ali. The office of Pir passed on to Hazrat Hasan who succeeded Muhammad as Pir.
When 'Ali died, Pir Imam Hasan became the Entrusted Imam (and he was already the Pir) while the Permanent Imam Husayn remained silent.
When Hasan died, the Imamat reverted to the Permanent Imam, Imam Husayn. The Piratan was passed on to one of the sons of Pir Imam Hasan.
All the above is documented in Shafique Virani's book The Ismailis in the Middle Ages. I have not quoted direct source for the sake of brevity.
Arshad,
"...Except that Ismailism allow people to share, debate and discuss their interpretation of faith and ultimately recognizes that Allah has the power to guide whom he wants...."
He has tried to say something which you would not have the honesty or the inclination to say..and so it is a good response !
This does not mean that everyone thinks alike.....if you had respected our beliefs, you would simply mind your own business....but you haven't ! and that is an illogical notion...you are arguing relentlessly over the concept of Olil Amr....simply because you have none ! now that is ridiculous indeed !
You are waving interpolated and variant versions at the world and incessantly imposing your theme and ideology - that is obnoxious ! and then arguing depending on such interpolations - now that is bigotry !
To which school of thought did the Muslims belong to , after the fourth Caliph [H. Ali a.s.] until the appearance of the first Sunni Imam?
All these Imams appeared well over a century after the Holy Prophet (S) of Islam
It is a fact that none of these four Imams were present during the time of the Holy. Prophet (S), nor had anyone of them met any of the Sahaba or the Comanions of the Holy Prophet (S). ...am i right ?
So then how and from where did the four Ahlul Sunnah Imams gain their knowledge, information and the interpretation of the Holy Qur’an and the ahadith of the Holy Prophet (S) to derive to their fatwas and rulings on religious matters?
Bearing Allah as your witness, how many hadith or the traditions of the Holy Prophet (S) have you come across in the ”Sahihs” quoted by any of these personalities [who were actually the companions of the Holy. Prophet (S)]? Kindly name them for us !
"...Except that Ismailism allow people to share, debate and discuss their interpretation of faith and ultimately recognizes that Allah has the power to guide whom he wants...."
He has tried to say something which you would not have the honesty or the inclination to say..and so it is a good response !
This does not mean that everyone thinks alike.....if you had respected our beliefs, you would simply mind your own business....but you haven't ! and that is an illogical notion...you are arguing relentlessly over the concept of Olil Amr....simply because you have none ! now that is ridiculous indeed !
You are waving interpolated and variant versions at the world and incessantly imposing your theme and ideology - that is obnoxious ! and then arguing depending on such interpolations - now that is bigotry !
To which school of thought did the Muslims belong to , after the fourth Caliph [H. Ali a.s.] until the appearance of the first Sunni Imam?
All these Imams appeared well over a century after the Holy Prophet (S) of Islam
It is a fact that none of these four Imams were present during the time of the Holy. Prophet (S), nor had anyone of them met any of the Sahaba or the Comanions of the Holy Prophet (S). ...am i right ?
So then how and from where did the four Ahlul Sunnah Imams gain their knowledge, information and the interpretation of the Holy Qur’an and the ahadith of the Holy Prophet (S) to derive to their fatwas and rulings on religious matters?
Bearing Allah as your witness, how many hadith or the traditions of the Holy Prophet (S) have you come across in the ”Sahihs” quoted by any of these personalities [who were actually the companions of the Holy. Prophet (S)]? Kindly name them for us !