arabic language

[TheMaw]

As an observation, my heritage languages are English, German, Scots Gaelic and Eastern Cherokee.

If I not making mistake then you are living in state but you are originaly from close to Afghan/soviet boarder please correct me if I am wrong,

Ey baraadar, read more carefully. Not a lot of people with the above ancestry from the Afghan border! In case you missed it, the Eastern Cherokee are indigenous to the American South-East (Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky) - the OTHER kind of Indian, the Native American kind.

but as per my understanding you are trying to impose that Arabic language is the only language for Islam and Ismaili. Do not forget that our old Dua ( approximately 50 years ago) was in Sindhi/Katchi language and it was written by Pir Sadrding and it was recited in all Indian continental JK FOR lamost more than 600 hundred years, and now, we may see soon that our new Dua will may be in English, Persian or other langugages who knows! so, Dua's language (Arabic) does not make that language is greater or superior than other languages.
The ginans were written exactly the way Quran was written, let me put this in just one sentence.
'GINANS ARE THE ASSENCE OF QURAN"
Not knowing Gujarati or other languges in which most Ginans are available now a days does not mean that languages are not important and only Arabic is important because Quran and current Dua are in Arabic.
In addition, you do not need to convert in Khojaisam, I am not Khoja but I am 'Momna" but I am true Ismaili there are too many other sects they are not Khoja but they all are Ismailis for example Gupti, Shamshi e.t.c. nobody need to convert in Khojaisam to be call Ismaili.
Who say that there are not any valuable Ismaili books in Gujarati and other languages? there are two many Ismaili valuable books and Granths available in Gujarati and Khojki languages and our 48th Imam used to refered to read these books, you can read many Farmans of our 48th Imam about this, The valuable books are 'NOORANMUBIN" ANANT AKAHDO' E.T.C. which is not available now a days.

I do not for a moment question the importance of the many works of faith of the Indic tradition. As I observed, however, there are NON-Indic traditions as well, and they are just as important. I am learning about ginans!

But - and I say this again! - there can be no equal to knowing what the Qur'an says. I don't think we should all be Arabs, or try to be Arabs, or speak Arabic in our daily lives. But no matter our traditions, whether we are speakers of the Nilo-Saharan languages of the Nubian family (from Upper Egypt), speakers of the Afrasian languages like Levantine Syrian Arabic or speakers of the Indo-European languages like Western Iranian Persian or Hazaragi, Eastern Iranian Pashtun, or Indic languages written in the Khojki script, what unites us is the Qur'an in Arabic.

Each group of Nizari Ismailis has its own unique traditions of faith. Khojas bring the mighty ginaans to the table, and they are wonderful. However, they are as unfamiliar to non-Khojas as Persian Ismailis practice with the Ni'matullahi Order. The Ni'matullahi is a Twelver Sufi order that Ismailis practiced alongside, including the Imams. Our Imams and believers never swore allegiance to their leadership, but were permitted to worship alongside. These practices - comprising songs, dhikr and practice - are strange to Khojas. They are primarily in Persian, they feature unfamiliar lore and practices and it surprises many Ismailis to learn our Imam prayed alongside the Ni'matullahi qutub or leader while his Murids prayed alongside the (Twelver!) Ni'matullahi murids.

I could continue with each region as best as I know, but let's just leave it with: many Ismailis are Khoja. Khoja traditions rock. However, they are not compulsory any more than reading Naasir-i Khusraw is compulsory. I think Arabic is necessary for all who study the Imam's path in any depth, and I see no way around it. The Qur'an is the word of God and it is in Qur'anic Arabic.

[YaAliYaMowla]

A couple of things I would like to clear and reiterate.. Khojas are not the only Ismailis of Indian descent. I am of the Satpanthi tradition, but not Khoja, as are many who have been discussing in this thread. The Satpanthi tradition, in and of itself, is a minority population within the greater Ismaili population. 3-5 Million of the 15-20 Million Ismailis are of the Satpanthi tradition.

Now on to arabic. Arabic would be nice to learn. Certainly. However, knowing arabic will not all of a sudden give me the true interpretation of the Qur'an. Look at the different translations of Qur'an by individuals who were so good in Arabic that they were able to take up the task of translating the entire Qur'an. Their interpretations of the exact same verses, even in explicit translation, are very different in many many cases. Not even mentioning their interpretation of batini meanings.

The Imam, Pirs, Dais, and other Ismaili scholars have translated and interpreted Qur'an for us. IIS has translated much of the works done by early Ismaili scholars. I really dont think that knowing Arabic makes someone more enlightened or more informed. Even if I learned Arabic, it would not make my interpretation of Qur'an any more accurate than those that have already been done by others who also knew Arabic.

[ShamsB]

As an observation, my heritage languages are English, German, Scots Gaelic and Eastern Cherokee.

If I not making mistake then you are living in state but you are originaly from close to Afghan/soviet boarder please correct me if I am wrong,

Ey baraadar, read more carefully. Not a lot of people with the above ancestry from the Afghan border! In case you missed it, the Eastern Cherokee are indigenous to the American South-East (Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky) - the OTHER kind of Indian, the Native American kind.

but as per my understanding you are trying to impose that Arabic language is the only language for Islam and Ismaili. Do not forget that our old Dua ( approximately 50 years ago) was in Sindhi/Katchi language and it was written by Pir Sadrding and it was recited in all Indian continental JK FOR lamost more than 600 hundred years, and now, we may see soon that our new Dua will may be in English, Persian or other langugages who knows! so, Dua's language (Arabic) does not make that language is greater or superior than other languages.
The ginans were written exactly the way Quran was written, let me put this in just one sentence.
'GINANS ARE THE ASSENCE OF QURAN"
Not knowing Gujarati or other languges in which most Ginans are available now a days does not mean that languages are not important and only Arabic is important because Quran and current Dua are in Arabic.
In addition, you do not need to convert in Khojaisam, I am not Khoja but I am 'Momna" but I am true Ismaili there are too many other sects they are not Khoja but they all are Ismailis for example Gupti, Shamshi e.t.c. nobody need to convert in Khojaisam to be call Ismaili.
Who say that there are not any valuable Ismaili books in Gujarati and other languages? there are two many Ismaili valuable books and Granths available in Gujarati and Khojki languages and our 48th Imam used to refered to read these books, you can read many Farmans of our 48th Imam about this, The valuable books are 'NOORANMUBIN" ANANT AKAHDO' E.T.C. which is not available now a days.

I do not for a moment question the importance of the many works of faith of the Indic tradition. As I observed, however, there are NON-Indic traditions as well, and they are just as important. I am learning about ginans!

But - and I say this again! - there can be no equal to knowing what the Qur'an says. I don't think we should all be Arabs, or try to be Arabs, or speak Arabic in our daily lives. But no matter our traditions, whether we are speakers of the Nilo-Saharan languages of the Nubian family (from Upper Egypt), speakers of the Afrasian languages like Levantine Syrian Arabic or speakers of the Indo-European languages like Western Iranian Persian or Hazaragi, Eastern Iranian Pashtun, or Indic languages written in the Khojki script, what unites us is the Qur'an in Arabic.

Each group of Nizari Ismailis has its own unique traditions of faith. Khojas bring the mighty ginaans to the table, and they are wonderful. However, they are as unfamiliar to non-Khojas as Persian Ismailis practice with the Ni'matullahi Order. The Ni'matullahi is a Twelver Sufi order that Ismailis practiced alongside, including the Imams. Our Imams and believers never swore allegiance to their leadership, but were permitted to worship alongside. These practices - comprising songs, dhikr and practice - are strange to Khojas. They are primarily in Persian, they feature unfamiliar lore and practices and it surprises many Ismailis to learn our Imam prayed alongside the Ni'matullahi qutub or leader while his Murids prayed alongside the (Twelver!) Ni'matullahi murids.

I could continue with each region as best as I know, but let's just leave it with: many Ismailis are Khoja. Khoja traditions rock. However, they are not compulsory any more than reading Naasir-i Khusraw is compulsory. I think Arabic is necessary for all who study the Imam's path in any depth, and I see no way around it. The Qur'an is the word of God and it is in Qur'anic Arabic.

The quran as we have it is incomplete - islam and the imam existed before the existence of the quran and as a satpanthi ismaili - shamsi not khoja - to me..i don't need the quran to validate my faith.
my faith is based on my bayah to the imam. I look to the shah pir to guide me in my faith and to interpret the quran for me. We are provided the meanings of all our compulsory prayers - i memorize them in arabic and learn the meanings. You are hoisting your views and your standards on our faith, which are tying islam to a regional area.

Shams

[Biryani]

Agakhani,

Wow, Afghan/Soviet border!?!…what a geographical classification!...LOL

This is getting interesting and a little funny too...

Anyway, I don’t think that TheMaw is trying to impose that Arabic is only language of Islam or Ismailism. He is just trying to assert the importance of Arabic language by historical and contemporary facts along with other languages.

Like I’ve mentioned before, some people from certain background just cannot stand the notions of anything other than their own. This is exactly what I was talking about.

Previous Dua is previous Dua. There was a reason and that is why it is previous Dua now…and why those Books, that you mentioned, are obsolete now. Think about it.

And for the record so someone cannot just jump on conclusion erratically that I’m implying That Ginan and other Indo Pak Ismailia scriptures are not the message of the Quran sharif in their own local languages, I am sure they are. So why don’t you find me the message of the Surah Ya-seen or 'Ayat Al-Kursi from Surah Al Baqara in Ginans if you are so certain about similarity of God’s messages in both mediums…just to see if you are just saying it because you’ve been just told that over and over or you actually have done your homework…I will give you a month to find that out….OK?

I think this is the post about Arabic Language and most of us agree that it’s important (more or less) and beneficial to know Arabic to a certain degree to understand the World wide Islamic and our Ismaili Traditions and our Imam’s have repeatedly insisted on that as well. I don’t know if He had said pacifically about any other Indian Languages with such high regards. It does not mean that to know those other languages is not desirable. They have their own place or beneficial for people who already know them but if you want to shed some lights on them, start a new thread about them.

Speaking of these “Momna”…I can say that I have not found any other people as un-cultured as they are… they just live in bunches in India, Pakistan and U.S. only. and most of them In U.S. are actually illegal and undocumented immigrants. Their education background is very limited and their kids are hardly studying in any post secondary schools. They are mainly in small hanky panky stuff like gas stations, corner stores and launder mats…etc. Some Momna families have made some money in U.S. through that but they are right now very distressed and financially under huge debt and their social credit and stature is unraveling and falling apart.

In Gujarat, India, Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) had warned them on several occasions about jealousy in their community. On one occasion, He even had called them as they are like “Donkeys”…and warned them about money matters as they don't seem to have thier money transferred from one generation to the next, if they ever have earned enough. They are mainly low working class now with limited economic and financial consciousness and wherewithal.

So, coming back to Language issue, why don’t the people, who are concerned about their new or current generation not knowing their ancestral Indian languages, look at the reality and make a choice…whether they want their kids to be confused between things that they are living in and of increasingly fading realm or want to give them everything that is only universal and never dying.

[ShamsB]

Agakhani,

Wow, Afghan/Soviet border!?!…what a geographical classification!...LOL

Anyway, I don’t think that TheMaw is trying to impose that Arabic is only language of Islam or Ismailism. He is just trying to assert the importance of Arabic language by historical and contemporary facts along with other languages.

Like I’ve mentioned before, some people from certain background just cannot stand the notions of anything other than their own. This is exactly what I was talking about.

Previous Dua is previous Dua. There was a reason and that is why it is previous Dua now…and why those Books, that you mentioned, are obsolete now. Think about it.

And for the record so someone cannot just jump on conclusion erratically that I’m implying That Ginan and other Indo Pak Ismailia scriptures are not the message of the Quran sharif in their own local languages, I am sure they are. So why don’t you find me the message of the Surah Ya-seen or 'Ayat Al-Kursi from Surah Al Baqara if you are so certain about similarity of God’s messages in both mediums…just to see if you are just saying it because you’ve been just told that over and over or you actually have done your homework…I will give you a month to find that out….OK?

I think this is the post about Arabic Language and most of us agree that it’s important (more or less) and beneficial to know Arabic to a certain degree to understand the World wide Islamic and our Ismaili Traditions and our Imam’s have repeatedly insisted on that as well. I don’t know if He had said pacifically about any other Indian Languages with such high regards. It does not mean that to know those other languages is not desirable. They have their own place or beneficial for people who already know them but if you want to shed some lights on them, start a new post about them.

Speaking of these “Momna”…I can say that I have not found any other people as un-cultured as they are… they just live in bunches in India, Pakistan and U.S. only. and most of them In U.S. are actually illegal and undocumented immigrants. Their education background is very limited and their kids are hardly studying in any post secondary schools. They are mainly in small hanky panky stuff like gas stations, corner stores and launder mats…etc. Some Momna families have made some money in U.S. through that but they are right now very distressed and financially under huge debt and their social credit and stature is unraveling and falling apart.

In Gujarat, India, Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) had warned them on several occasions about jealousy in their community. On one occasion, He even had called them as they are like “Donkeys”…and warned them about money matters as they can’t seem to have money transferred from one generation to the next. They are mainly low working class now with limited economic and financial consciousness and wherewithal.

So, coming back to Language issue, why don’t the people, who are concerned about their new or current generation not knowing their ancestral Indian languages, look at the reality and make a choice…whether they want their kids to be confused between things that they are living in and of increasingly getting obsolete realm or want to give them everything that is only universal and never dying.

In regards to Momna's - Imam Aga Ali Shah made a farman where he said that they were members of his family. In regards to our community as a whole - as an outsider I've never seen any community so tight knit and supportive of each other in the way that they do things, and help each other out. If you actually get off your "condescending" and "antiSatpanth" and "antiIndic" horse you might see what they're all about.

Between you and TheMaw there have been a number of insinuations where it has been stated that if we don't agree with your "intellectual" train of thought - we are lesser than you are and our ismailism is lesser and weaker. This has been said a number of times.

In regards to Ali Asani - I have met him, had a few discussions with him, attended his lectures and found that even HE doesn't practice what he preaches in regards to pluralism - i.e. give other views that don't agree with him the right to exist and breathe. Asani has been very dismissive of the majority of the ginanical canon that we have - he may have translated it - but he seems to have missed the boat of the inner meaning.

Pir in many ginans have stated - you may have all the books in the world and all the knowledge..but without a true guru..you are worthless and lost.

Each of us, arrives at faith and at peace in our own ways and we have our own paths - some of us don't need arabic or the quran to reach the imam or practice or faith...we follow the imam - he doesn't need any more proofs to me for me to accept him as the Imam.

Shams

[Biryani]

In 2005, I was in Houston, TX USA. Where most of the Ismailies are from India, Pakistan and some are from East Africa with Indian background. They have a huge Jamat of at least several thousands. One Friday evening, after Jamat Khana activities, I took out a copy of Sura Al-Fatiha in Arabic and randomly asked some guys and girls outside prayer hall to read that transcript. Only one person out of a dozen could recognize and read that. She was from Rawalpindi, Pakistan and may be in her late twenties.

Next morning, I mentioned this matter with my other Ismaili co workers. One of them was highly educated from an Anglo-Indian school in Bombay, India. He, himself, is very talented and such a nice friendly person. He said that, leave alone teaching, he was never even showed the Quran Sharif by his parents or anyone in his religious school or anyone in Jamat Khana or anywhere else. He said that it is just normal for a typical Ismaili in India. They are not given any material that is generally of the nature of mainstream Islamic studies and culture. He also said that most of Ismailies in India are not even aware of Islamic history and contemporary Muslim issues except what they watch on their TVs and newspapers or the web.

Later, I called the Tariqah board of the area and talked with few people there about this and they said that this type of things are not in their control and have to be addressed from top, like from IIS or other institutions at national level…one lady, who I supposed, was a religious school teacher, said that she is also aware of the issue and while she can read, write and also can teach elementary Arabic to kids but that is just not in syllabus and maybe there is not enough staff to coordinate things in that regard…and they can not find Ismaili people who knows enough Arabic to teach. I gave her three names of the people whom I have known from Pakistan and now lives in Houston area and they have a more than enough command on Arabic to teach the introductory material.

I am not sure how things are nowadays with them but hope there is some movement or at least it is even concerned about at official levels.

[ShamsB]

In 2005, I was in Houston, TX USA. Where most of the Ismailies are from India, Pakistan and some are from East Africa with Indian background. They have a huge Jamat of at least several thousands. One Friday evening, after Jamat Khana activities, I took out a copy of Sura Al-Fatiha in Arabic and randomly asked some guys and girls outside prayer hall to read that transcript. Only one person out of a dozen could recognize and read that. She was from Rawalpindi, Pakistan and may be in her late twenties.

Next morning, I mentioned this matter with my other Ismaili co workers. One of them was highly educated from an Anglo-Indian school in Bombay, India. He, himself, is very talented and such a nice friendly person. He said that, leave alone teaching, he was never even showed the Quran Sharif by his parents or anyone in his religious school or anyone in Jamat Khana or anywhere else. He said that it is just normal for a typical Ismaili in India. They are not given any material that is generally of the nature of mainstream Islamic studies and culture. He also said that most of Ismailies in India are not even aware of Islamic history and contemporary Muslim issues except what they watch on their TVs and newspapers or the web.

Later, I called the Tariqah board of the area and talked with few people there about this and they said that this type of things are not in their control and have to be addressed from top, like from IIS or other institutions at national level…one lady, who I supposed, was a religious school teacher, said that she is also aware of the issue and while she can read, write and also can teach elementary Arabic to kids but that is just not in syllabus and maybe there is not enough staff to coordinate things in that regard…and they can not find Ismaili people who knows enough Arabic to teach. I gave her three names of the people whom I have known from Pakistan and now lives in Houston area and they have a more than enough command on Arabic to teach the introductory material.

I am not sure how things are nowadays with them but hope there is some movement or at least it is even concerned about at official levels.

Then i ask you what is Islam??
Islam is not Arabic...
True islam is recognizing the Imam-e-Zamaan and submission to the Imam-e-Zamaan.

The Quran you claim to have read - itself states..one who submits is a muslim - nothing in there about reading arabic or not reading arabic.

and the Taalim curriculum is sent by the Imam.
The imam himself has said - We are a pluralistic faith - we allow for multitudes of interpretations, traditions and cultures.

If you are unhappy or unknowledgeable or feel short or embarrassed in your own practice of your faith - or if you feel that you have to grow the beard and spout arabic to impress fellow muslims - who may read the quran back and forth - but not understand what it says...or what the message is...doesn't entitle you to homogenize the rest of us.

I follow the Imam - who has been here since the day of creation and will be here from the day of judgement and to me he needs no proofs.


The ginans that you deem not equal to the quran to me are equal to the Farmans of the ShahPir - as those were written by the Pirs who were Imam Mustawada in some instances and thus equal in stature to the Holy Prophet, who himself was the first Pir/Imam Mustawada.

You want to learn arabic - go for it...don't shove your insecurities on the rest of us or degrade or demean our traditions. We are proud of where we came from and we want to keep our heritage.

Shams

[ShamsB]

In 2005, I was in Houston, TX USA. Where most of the Ismailies are from India, Pakistan and some are from East Africa with Indian background. They have a huge Jamat of at least several thousands. One Friday evening, after Jamat Khana activities, I took out a copy of Sura Al-Fatiha in Arabic and randomly asked some guys and girls outside prayer hall to read that transcript. Only one person out of a dozen could recognize and read that. She was from Rawalpindi, Pakistan and may be in her late twenties.

Next morning, I mentioned this matter with my other Ismaili co workers. One of them was highly educated from an Anglo-Indian school in Bombay, India. He, himself, is very talented and such a nice friendly person. He said that, leave alone teaching, he was never even showed the Quran Sharif by his parents or anyone in his religious school or anyone in Jamat Khana or anywhere else. He said that it is just normal for a typical Ismaili in India. They are not given any material that is generally of the nature of mainstream Islamic studies and culture. He also said that most of Ismailies in India are not even aware of Islamic history and contemporary Muslim issues except what they watch on their TVs and newspapers or the web.

Later, I called the Tariqah board of the area and talked with few people there about this and they said that this type of things are not in their control and have to be addressed from top, like from IIS or other institutions at national level…one lady, who I supposed, was a religious school teacher, said that she is also aware of the issue and while she can read, write and also can teach elementary Arabic to kids but that is just not in syllabus and maybe there is not enough staff to coordinate things in that regard…and they can not find Ismaili people who knows enough Arabic to teach. I gave her three names of the people whom I have known from Pakistan and now lives in Houston area and they have a more than enough command on Arabic to teach the introductory material.

I am not sure how things are nowadays with them but hope there is some movement or at least it is even concerned about at official levels.

Our faith is about inclusiveness..everyone is welcome..we're like a tapestry..

I also don't think we have a quran e sharrif in jamat khanas - can anyone verify?
also our dua is transcribed in English - Dua books are sold in English with transliteration and translation as well as Gujrati and Urdu. Then why the hullabullo about learning arabic..our dua as you stated comes from the Imam and this is what he said to read.

and as the Imam has said numerous times..only the Imam can make changes to the practice of the faith - and religious curriculum falls under this. If he wants us to learn arabic..he'll include it in the curriculum....so far he hasn't.

Shams

[Biryani]

Oh, by the way, I am, or probably was, or still am a “Momna” but may be just in theory. So I know about them or should I say about us?

Imam Hassan Ali Shah (AS) may have said that about Momna, and I am not surprised on that. Because the real “momnas” (the term I think is derived from “Momin”) were like saints. They were the strongest in their faith and traditions despite their enormously difficult lives in India. My grand and great grand fathers had been Mukhi in their respective villages in Sidhpur, Gujrat, India. My grandfather used to go to Jamat khana everyday in the early morning at 3:00 am after taking a bath in cold water, even in winter times. I had always seen him in white clothes and with Religious books or Nandis in his hands or working in the farm fields…he even died by falling off the stairs in dark as he was going for jamat khana in the early morning hours. There had been so many examples and events that have occurred in early Momna community that tell you how pure and high they were…no doubt about that.

But then what happened during and after Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah’s time? I think that was the start of the end of “Momin-ism”…today, I can tell you that I know myself of at least few tens of Momna’s families and the issues they are facing even of my own relatives. All that love and unity in the families the spirit of sacrifice and forgiveness is gone…dishonesty, jealousy and showing off the materialism is unimaginable…there had been few cases of even the murders and other serious crimes like monetary and marital frauds and children abuses are in them. Most of them don’t have the din or duniya…without any sight of good future of their children. Very few families seem to be at the par of average population and its lifestyle. They are intellectually in a very dire situation. Look around, Momnas. Don’t kid and be honest to yourself.

Inclusiveness? LOL…I wonder if they can include even themselves in their own Tariqah, leave alone others. Shams, I don’t know which pastry shop you’re talking about.

Anyways, these things are not about the topic but might be related to it, so I mentioned. I think, we should not waste our time in this kind of arguments. Nobody said anything negative about Indian Languages and whatnot of Indian origin...and most of your “hullabullo” is totally against what imams have said. I don't know where you are getting those references from. I included at least one speech of Sultan Muhammad shah. Did you even read that or just ignored it like usual because it not about your interests? Do you actually have one piece from Him to show in favor of what you’re talking about?

And did you expect from Hazar Imam to personally make the curriculum of the religious school? Man, there re hundreds of shortcomings, like this, that our leaders make on Jamati issues on everyday basis. And that’s normal to an extent, as they are humans and make errors and partly it’s not their fault either due to financial and other logistical shortfalls. Hazar imam gives directions and guidance but cannot implement or actually look after each action one by one. He is like a CEO of a big not-for-profit organization and sometimes things like this cannot be addressed so quickly and easily due to several reasons in such an environment . But acknowledging of the problem is the least we can do.

[ShamsB]

Oh, by the way, I am, or probably was, or still am a “Momna” but may be just in theory. So I know about them or should I say about us?

Imam Hassan Ali Shah (AS) may have said that about Momna, and I am not surprised on that. Because the real “momnas” (the term I think is derived from “Momin”) were like saints. They were the strongest in their faith and traditions despite their enormously difficult lives in India. My grand and great grand fathers had been Mukhi in their respective villages in Sidhpur, Gujrat, India. My grandfather used to go to Jamat khana everyday in the early morning at 3:00 am after taking a bath in cold water, even in winter times. I had always seen him in white clothes and with Religious books or Nandis in his hands or working in the farm fields…he even died by falling off the stairs in dark as he was going for jamat khana in the early morning hours. There had been so many examples and events that have occurred in early Momna community that tell you how pure and high they were…no doubt about that.

But then what happened during and after Sultan Muhammad Shah’s time? I think that was the start of the end of “Momin-ism”…today, I can tell you that I know myself of at least few tens of Momna’s families and the issues they are facing even of my own relatives. All that love and unity in the families the spirit of sacrifice and forgiveness is gone…dishonesty, jealousy and showing off the materialism is unimaginable…there had been few cases of even the murders and other serious crimes like monetary and marital frauds and children abuses are in them. Most of them don’t have the din or duniya…without any sight of good future of their children. Very few families seem to be at the par of average population and its lifestyle. They are intellectually in a very dire situation. Look around, Momnas. Don’t kid and be honest to yourself.

Inclusiveness? LOL…I wonder if they can include even themselves in their own Tariqah, leave alone others. Shams, I don’t know which pastry shop you’re talking about.

Anyways, these things are not about the topic but might be related to it, so I mentioned. I think, we should not waste our time in this kind of arguments. Nobody said anything negative about Indian Languages and whatnot of Indian origin...and most of your “hullabullo” is totally against what imams have said. I don't know where you are getting those references from. I included at least one speech of Sultan Muhammad shah. Did you even read that or just ignored it like usual because it not about your interests? Do you actually have one piece from Him to show in favor of what you’re talking about?

And did you expect from Hazar Imam to personally make the curriculum of the religious school? Man, there re hundreds of shortcomings, like this, that our leaders make on Jamati issues on everyday basis. And that’s normal to an extent, as they are humans and make errors and partly it’s not their fault either due to financial and other logistical shortfalls. Hazar imam gives directions and guidance but cannot implement or actually look after each action one by one. He is like a CEO of a big not-for-profit organization and sometimes things like this cannot be addressed so quickly and easily due to several reasons in such an environment . But acknowledging of the problem is the least we can do.

I am going back to the message of Hazar imam - and of Islam

"there is no compulsiveness in religion"...



so you can not force anyone to learn arabic which is what you are a proponent of, made explicit by your statement that you approached the institution a number of times....

The quran written in english is not going to cease being the quran -
if you call a rose by any other name - will it not cease to be a rose? or stop smelling like a rose?

In regards to the Momnas being a Shamsi - I am sharing my observation with you. You may have a better sense of what goes in within.

Shams

Shams

[Biryani]

Nobody can force nobody to do anything here regarding what's right or appropriate based on guidance we all get from the Imam. everybody is free to follow or ignor whatever they choose to. I am just trying to point out the importance of the issue here.

Mowlana Hazar Imam gave the following guidance in September, 1960 to the Tariqah and Religious Education Board, then called The Ismailia Association, at Karachi, Pakistan:

“Now to some of the work which the Association has ahead of it, the most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading these texts in Arabic, of reading them in Persian, of reading them in Urdu, of reading them in Gujrati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us rereading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth.”

Source: monoreality.org

[Biryani]

The Speech by His Highness the Aga Khan at the Opening Session of ‘Word of God, Art of Man:The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions’.
An International Colloquium organised by The Institute of Ismaili Studies.

His Highness the Aga Khan
The Ismaili Centre, London
October 19, 2003

Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim
Your Excellencies,
Your Worship,
Distinguished Scholars and Guests,
Ladies and Gentlemen,

An assembly of the wise and learned is a privileged occasion. I am, therefore, immensely happy to be with you this morning as you begin your deliberations on a theme which, though of perennial interest, holds a special significance at a time that calls for enlightened encounters among faiths and cultures. Whatever its vernacular forms, the language of art, more so when it is spiritually inspired, can be a positive barrier transcending medium of discourse, manifesting the depths of the human spirit.

The venue for this international colloquium is particularly appropriate. In its architectural design and definition of broader functions, the Ismaili Centre in London, like its counterparts in other countries, has been conceived in a mood of dialogue, of humility, of friendship and of harmony. These Centers reflect a commitment to premiate excellence of endeavor in the realms of the intellect and the spirit.

I thank you most warmly for setting aside the time from your busy schedules to participate in this colloquium. I also congratulate the Institute of Ismaili Studies for marking the twenty-fifth year since its inauguration through this timely event. This is a part of its ongoing ambitious programme of Qur’anic studies in which scholars from around the world, both Muslim and of other persuasions, are participating. They bring to bear a variety of academic disciplines on a reflection of how Islam's revelation, with its challenge to man’s innate gift of quest and reason, became a powerful impetus for a new flowering of human civilization.

This programme is also an opportunity for achieving insights into how the discourse of the Qur’an-e-Sharif, rich in parable and allegory, metaphor and symbol, has been an inexhaustible well-spring of inspiration, lending itself to a wide spectrum of interpretations. This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur’an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word. Happily, as a result, the Holy Book continues to guide and illuminate the thought and conduct of Muslims belonging to different communities of interpretation and spiritual affiliation, from century to century, in diverse cultural environments. The Noble Qur’an extends its principle of pluralism also to adherents of other faiths. It affirms that each has a direction and path to which they turn so that all should strive for good works, in the belief that, wheresoever they may be, Allah will bring them together.

Tradition honors the vocation of the learned scholars who are gathered here for this colloquium. The Qur’an itself acknowledges that people upon whom wisdom has been bestowed are the recipients of abundant good; they are the exalted ones. Hence Islam’s consistent encouragement to Muslim men and women to seek knowledge wherever it is to be found. We are all familiar that al-Kindi, even in the 9th century, saw no shame in acknowledging and assimilating the truth, whatever its source. He argued that truth never abases, but only ennobles its seeker. Poetizing the Prophet’s teaching, Nasir Khusraw, the 11th century Iranian poet-philosopher, also extols the virtue of knowledge. For him, true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul.

This colloquium covers a range of Muslim expressions in the Arts, across time and space. Some among the eminent scholars present today have observed that, while the Qur’an may not propound a doctrine of Islamic art or material culture, it does offer imaginative scope in this direction. From early on, its passages have inspired works of art and architecture, and shaped attitudes and norms that have guided the development of Muslim artistic traditions.

In this context, would it not also be relevant to consider how, above all, it has been the Qur’anic notion of the universe as an expression of Allah’s will and creation that has inspired, in diverse Muslim communities, generations of artists, scientists and philosophers? Scientific pursuits, philosophic inquiry and artistic endeavor are all seen as the response of the faithful to the recurring call of the Qur’an to ponder the creation as a way to understand Allah's benevolent majesty. As Sura al-Baqara proclaims: ‘Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah’.

Does not the Qur’an challenge the artist, as much as the mystic, to go beyond the physical - the outward - so as to seek to unveil that which lies at the centre but gives life to the periphery? Is not a great work of art, like the ecstasy of the mystic, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with, that which is ineffable and beyond being?

The famous verse of ‘light’ in the Qur’an, the Ayat al-Nur, whose first line is rendered here in the mural behind me, inspires among Muslims a reflection on the sacred, the transcendent. It hints at a cosmos full of signs and symbols that evoke the perfection of Allah's creation and mercy. Many other verses of the Qur’an have similarly inspired calligraphy in all its forms, reminding us of the richness and vitality of Muslim traditions in the Arts.

It is my sincere hope that this colloquium will bring additional insights to an understanding of the Holy Qur’an as a message that encompasses the entirety of human existence and effort. It is concerned with the salvation of the soul, but commensurately also with the ethical imperatives which sustain an equitable social order. The Qur’an’s is an inclusive vision of society that gives primacy to nobility of conduct. It speaks of differences of language and color as a divine sign of mercy and a portent for people of knowledge to reflect upon.

Ours is a time when knowledge and information are expanding at an accelerating and, perhaps, unsettling pace. There exists, therefore, an unprecedented capacity for improving the human condition. And yet, ills such as abject poverty and ignorance, and the conflicts these breed, continue to afflict the world. The Qur’an addresses this challenge eloquently. The power of its message is reflected in its gracious disposition to differences of interpretation; its respect for other faiths and societies; its affirmation of the primacy of the intellect; its insistence that knowledge is worthy when it is used to serve Allah’s creation; and, above all, its emphasis on our common humanity.

As this colloquium embarks on its deliberations, I wish you well in all your proceedings.

Thank you.

The Source: http://iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101325

[agakhani]

Agakhani,

Wow, Afghan/Soviet border!?!…what a geographical classification!...LOL

This is getting interesting and a little funny too...

Anyway, I don’t think that TheMaw is trying to impose that Arabic is only language of Islam or Ismailism. He is just trying to assert the importance of Arabic language by historical and contemporary facts along with other languages.

Like I’ve mentioned before, some people from certain background just cannot stand the notions of anything other than their own. This is exactly what I was talking about.

Previous Dua is previous Dua. There was a reason and that is why it is previous Dua now…and why those Books, that you mentioned, are obsolete now. Think about it.

And for the record so someone cannot just jump on conclusion erratically that I’m implying That Ginan and other Indo Pak Ismailia scriptures are not the message of the Quran sharif in their own local languages, I am sure they are. So why don’t you find me the message of the Surah Ya-seen or 'Ayat Al-Kursi from Surah Al Baqara in Ginans if you are so certain about similarity of God’s messages in both mediums…just to see if you are just saying it because you’ve been just told that over and over or you actually have done your homework…I will give you a month to find that out….OK?

I think this is the post about Arabic Language and most of us agree that it’s important (more or less) and beneficial to know Arabic to a certain degree to understand the World wide Islamic and our Ismaili Traditions and our Imam’s have repeatedly insisted on that as well. I don’t know if He had said pacifically about any other Indian Languages with such high regards. It does not mean that to know those other languages is not desirable. They have their own place or beneficial for people who already know them but if you want to shed some lights on them, start a new thread about them.

Speaking of these “Momna”…I can say that I have not found any other people as un-cultured as they are… they just live in bunches in India, Pakistan and U.S. only. and most of them In U.S. are actually illegal and undocumented immigrants. Their education background is very limited and their kids are hardly studying in any post secondary schools. They are mainly in small hanky panky stuff like gas stations, corner stores and launder mats…etc. Some Momna families have made some money in U.S. through that but they are right now very distressed and financially under huge debt and their social credit and stature is unraveling and falling apart.

In Gujarat, India, Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (AS) had warned them on several occasions about jealousy in their community. On one occasion, He even had called them as they are like “Donkeys”…and warned them about money matters as they can’t seem to have money transferred from one generation to the next. They are mainly low working class now with limited economic and financial consciousness and wherewithal.

So, coming back to Language issue, why don’t the people, who are concerned about their new or current generation not knowing their ancestral Indian languages, look at the reality and make a choice…whether they want their kids to be confused between things that they are living in and of increasingly getting obsolete realm or want to give them everything that is only universal and never dying.

ADMIN,
Biryani.
Now the test of biryani in my mouth getting bad after reading your comments, hate, resentments,animosity towards Momna Jamat, which are not toleratable by me or any body.
I do not want to make this issue big story but I deffinately urge to Admin to read Biryani's post and block his user I.D. or delet his this post till he do not apologize for the bad words, bad language he used in this forum against Momin sect.
For your information, I have lots to write about Khojas but I will wait what Admin take action against Mr. Biryani. Since he alredy started to accuse one sect directly and now I will not stop.

[ShamsB]

Nobody can force nobody to do anything here regarding what's right or appropriate based on guidance we all get from the Imam. everybody is free to follow or ignor whatever they choose to. I am just trying to point out the importance of the issue here.

Mowlana Hazar Imam gave the following guidance in September, 1960 to the Tariqah and Religious Education Board, then called The Ismailia Association, at Karachi, Pakistan:

“Now to some of the work which the Association has ahead of it, the most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading these texts in Arabic, of reading them in Persian, of reading them in Urdu, of reading them in Gujrati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us rereading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth.”

Source: monoreality.org

You made my point for me..Thanks

Arabic is not the only language singled out.

Shams

[Biryani]

Ohh..hh.h…hhhhold on, hold on, hold on! Mr or Ms Agakhani, grow some thick skin, please…LMAO…

Let me answer to the shamsB first, since he seems to be much pacified now.

ShamsB, this thread was originated for Arabic Language…right? Ok. So obviously we are to focus mainly on Arabic according to the Farman above…and it does not mean that if someone wants to pursue other languages, mentioned in that farman or others which are not mentioned there either, is not desirable or appreciated. But if you comment in a way or mention the references about other languages in the context where it sounds like Arabic is not so important. Then there is a problem. If you really want to promote and talk about other languages, then that is fine. Either you can give the positive and relevant feedbacks based on real facts either in the same thread or just start a new one. It is very simple. And for the last time I am going to say this again…is that there is a problem of rejectionist attitude in some of the members of our jamat against an important aspect of our religion and the world. And this is the proof here. That’s it!

I will update this post later on..I gotta go in a meeting first...Thanks.

[Admin]

Maybe you can and should all go to basics, which is the title of this thread and see what are the links of Ismailism and Arabic in a manner relevant to this Century.

Admin

[agakhani]

Admin,
Forget about your experience in Syria (Aleppo) in 2001 on discrimination forget about your experience on discrimination in Dhandhuka, Gujarat and forget about the big talk you are writing in this website on discrimination but I think you are doing big discrimination in your own ISMAILI.NET website. if you think you are not then answer my following questions honestly:-
Be honest first:-
1, Have you read all the post of TheMaw, Mr. Birynai, ShmasB and mine?
On Arabic language?
2, If you read all then can you tell me Did I wrote any thing bad about
Khoja Sect or any other sect or used bad language?
3, I know your answers will be no then why Mr. Biryani all of sudden
started to critisize and wrote bad comments on Momin Sect all of
sudden?
4, Does not it shows mr. Birynani's jealosy, hate, resentment and
aversion on Momin Sect?
5, Can I post bad comments and bad language same like Mr. Birynai
wrote against Momin sect ( this time against Khoja) becuase now it is
my turn to retailiate and answer him?
6, You promise me that you will not delete my posts (bad languge against
Khoja sect) because you have not deleted Mr. Biryani's bad comments
post against Momin sect yet? You will treat both of us same, is this
right?
7, Are the rules, regulations and policies for this web site are for all
members or just for few members only? if these policies for all
members then why you have not deleted Mr. B's post? and you deleted
my many posts in past.
8, Do not you ignore one member request and favor other members?
9, Are you not become arrogant and rude some time?
10,And if you delete my this post then I will definately beleive that you
are a big discriminator.
Please be honest first and answer my above questions

[Biryani]

Agakhani, chill out... Ok?

I did not use any bad words or foul language. I may have said things which you may not agree with and my comments might have been little bit more sarcastically spicier for your taste but you can always reply back to prove or disprove them. I did not mean to suddenly start commenting on something out of nowhere….it was just my reaction to the points in previous posts by you or others. I could’ve elaborated a bit more but I just had been very busy and haven’t had time to do that. We can start a new thread and discuss any points in that. But please, let's leave this thread to discuss on what the topic is about.

Thank you.

P.S: Momin/Momna or Khoja is not a “Sect” (as the interpretation of the term 'Sect' is generally understood) within Ismailism or Islam. Rather the term is meant and used to describe a people from a certain origin and traditions. Don’t we already have enough divisions and “Sects” to care for?

[ShamsB]

Your cultural heritage is unique and universally admired. Enhance your traditions and project them into the 21st century. Move ahead within your own idiom and culture. If you want to change course, do so. It is man's privilege to control what he does with his own built environment. If you are uncertain, we will help you, because it will be your achievements which are the key to our long term success[Speech 4 Sept. 1983]

-- Aga Khan IV

[Biryani]

Great quote...ShamsB.

I think, the key sentence there is “Enhance your traditions and project them into the 21st century.” and if we concentrate on what is said there…and look around and think, we will find that there is a need of enhancement, if not a full change, within our idiom and culture so that it is more compatible with much of the world of today and tomorrow.

[ShamsB]

Great quote...ShamsB.

I think, the key sentence there is “Enhance your traditions and project them into the 21st century.” and if we concentrate on what is said there…and look around and think, we will find that there is a need of enhancement, if not a full change, within our idiom and culture so that it is more compatible with much of the world of today and tomorrow.

Nope..enhance..so take what you have..and build upon on them....move ahead with your OWN idiom and CULTURE...HE starts with YOUR CULTURAL HERITAGE IS UNIQUE.

nowhere does it say..discard or learn arabic...

Shams

[Biryani]

Enhance means to update or improve what you already have to make it even better according to the time…with keeping the core purpose and essence the same….and c’mon man…not every single thing will be metioned in a couple of pages of speech… (Aqalmand kay liye ishaara hi qaafi hota hey)….

Tell me according to your meaning of “enhance”, what you think He meant by enhancing our traditions for 21st century. Give me one or two solid and relevant examples.

Thanks.

[YaAliYaMowla]

Admin,
Forget about your experience in Syria (Aleppo) in 2001 on discrimination forget about your experience on discrimination in Dhandhuka, Gujarat and forget about the big talk you are writing in this website on discrimination but I think you are doing big discrimination in your own ISMAILI.NET website. if you think you are not then answer my following questions honestly:-
Be honest first:-
1, Have you read all the post of TheMaw, Mr. Birynai, ShmasB and mine?
On Arabic language?
2, If you read all then can you tell me Did I wrote any thing bad about
Khoja Sect or any other sect or used bad language?
3, I know your answers will be no then why Mr. Biryani all of sudden
started to critisize and wrote bad comments on Momin Sect all of
sudden?
4, Does not it shows mr. Birynani's jealosy, hate, resentment and
aversion on Momin Sect?
5, Can I post bad comments and bad language same like Mr. Birynai
wrote against Momin sect ( this time against Khoja) becuase now it is
my turn to retailiate and answer him?
6, You promise me that you will not delete my posts (bad languge against
Khoja sect) because you have not deleted Mr. Biryani's bad comments
post against Momin sect yet? You will treat both of us same, is this
right?
7, Are the rules, regulations and policies for this web site are for all
members or just for few members only? if these policies for all
members then why you have not deleted Mr. B's post? and you deleted
my many posts in past.
8, Do not you ignore one member request and favor other members?
9, Are you not become arrogant and rude some time?
10,And if you delete my this post then I will definately beleive that you
are a big discriminator.
Please be honest first and answer my above questions

I also am momna so I agree that I did feel discriminated against, however I dont think that the Imam would like any of us to retaliate against another. When this happens we should only explain politely. The Imam has said never to react in anger and in his farmans has asked us to resolve our problems with others in a way that benefits all, particularly if we are from different backgrounds. Imam says we should never think that today he hurt me so tomorrow I should hurt him.

[Biryani]

Well…I was not discriminative against momna because I don’t necessarily have to mention about non-momna Ismailies or other people as well when I talk about momna pacifically comparing them with themselves in a different time period…plus I am also a so called “ Momna” Ismaili too and my criticism was not due to any malice or prejudice against anybody but because I have regrets and disappointments from us and so I tried to criticize us with constructive intentions. I would take that, even if I don't agree on what is said, as an alarm and opportunity to correct ourselves from any shortfall, mistakes and errors we can to improve ourselves. Of course other people have the same or different problems. But two wrongs cannot make the things right. And nobody is under any obligation and liable to answer to anybody except themselves and God.

[Biryani]

Aray O Gubaray…Kiya huwa tumahrey ‘Enhancement’ ka? Hawa nikal gayee kiya?...

[ShamsB]

Aray O Gubaray…Kiya huwa tumahrey ‘Enhancement’ ka? Hawa nikal gayee kiya?...

I think i've made my point a number of times as have you.

You seem to be disillusioned and unsatisfied in your own cultural heritage and background and thus are going around looking for something that appeals to you.

If it works for you great - but don't enforce it on others.

even the Imam says -

There is no compulsion in Islam

To force arabic - is a compulsion.

Shams

[Biryani]

So what enhancement is He talking about?

I am not forcing Arabic or anything on anyone …nor can I or anybody. All I am doing is recommending or suggesting knowing at least a little bit of Arabic as it is also a part of our religion just like other languages. It’s actually you who was forcing to ignore the Arabic as you think that everything that our religion or this world offers is in your native or other Indic languages so it is not necessary to know Arabic. And I asked to provide at least one or two examples to back up that idea…but to no avail, while I provided a few references of our Imam’s work and guidance on that matter. Two is better than one and I challenge anyone to prove that ‘one’ that they have covers everything.