Reincarnation in Islam

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:08 am

brother shamsB

If the souls of the wicked experience many cycles of life in different bodies, would it not be an utter injustice and mercilessness to many innocent parents because of their babies who have come to their world carrying the souls of those wicked ones? Whereas Islam declares that every person comes to the world sinless.

When a body reaches an age (say of 3 or 4), a measure of physical maturity, should we not expect the soul to emerge with all that it has acquired and achieved in its former lives? Should we not expect prodigies? There have been quite a few prodigies in recorded history, but their special gifts need not be the result of former lives. Such cases can be explained equally well as a special combination of genetic characteristics occurring in a particular time and place, which is attributable to Divine Grace and Favor. Added to this is the individual’s own supreme effort to understand his or her own gift in the tradition and context in which it is given.

No faculty unique to human beings has ever been found in any non-human entity, whether animate or inanimate. But we should expect such a discovery if there were any truth in reincarnation. If a lower form of life is, so to speak, the consequence (punishment) for particular evil deeds in a previous life, then presumably the good in that life (outweighed by the evil) must be carried forward. In other words, some part of the individual’s previous life should be retained in the next life. In this case, we would expect the boundaries of particular forms to be frequently burst open─with, for example, plants suddenly showing animal-like properties. But, by the Mercy of God, zoology and botany have not, for all their many welcome advances in recent years, discovered any such monsters.

If being a human or an animal is the consequence of one’s deeds in a former life, which existed first: human or animal, the higher or the lower? Advocates of reincarnation cannot decide or agree on any form for the first creature, for every generation implies a preceding generation in order that the succeeding generation may be considered as the consequence of the former. And if generation is an evil, as some who believe in reincarnation also believe, why did the whole thing start? Why did life begin at all? Plainly, the doctrine leads again and again to absurdity.

lamp_of_heaven · Post by **lamp_of_heaven** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:03 am

@armadeep,

Reincarnation is not a second chance. The long, long, long, cycle of birth and death is Hell itself.
The mind/soul essence moves from form to form, carrying with it the karma or deep subconscious memories of other lives. The next life is not the same self..the same self in a depp sense, but not in the sense of the same personality/ego. The person in the quote begs Allah for a second chance at the same life. No way.
For Quran scripture, I quote:
"4:56 (Asad) for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] Verily, God is almighty, wise."

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon May 18, 2009 12:08 pm

extract from an article by Imam Hazrat Mowlana Sultan Mahomed Shah (s.a.s.)

Source: Africa Ismaili Kisumu Supplement, March 28, 1969

The Islamic conception is, however, different from the extreme materialistic idea of a live body, similar to the man as he was in life, getting up from his utter destructibility, to form a body with all the nervous and other forces that control our existence in this world. Such an idea does not appeal to those who have not been brought up from childhood in the personal Faith of the Resurrection of the Master.

For Muslims there has been a similar personal influence, and in many ways it resembles the position that St Thomas Aquinas took in the Catholic Church. First of all as regards the idea of divinity of God: a great deal of the Koran is taken up with God's intimate presence in the world, with the importance of each human being's relations with the Creator; but only in one chapter-the chapter on Light-is the nature of the divinity referred to in a very clear form. Although, of course, we do not believe that the person of the Creator is a form of light, either in waves or in the minutest association of myriads of points, yet the consequence of the light as seen in the universe, is the nearest we can imagine or hope to believe about the person of our Creator.

This was as far as Islamic theological thought went in the early years after the Prophet's death. But just as St. Thomas Aquinas came long after the beginning of the Christian era and laid the foundation of the philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church, so in the Muslim world the Spaniard Ibn-Rushd (known to the Europeans as Averroes) changed the Islamic outlook on the foundation of Faith. He switched it from reasoning, which he clearly showed was the work of the material brain and could never grasp spiritual truth, nor could spiritual truth ever be found by logic and science; it was an illumination and enlightenment directly given by the Creator to those who had the grace to receive it. But as Ibn-Rushd has consistnently shown, this spiritual knowledge, directly given, can be studied, learnt and followed by the whole Islamic mass of the population. It is a Muslim's highest duty, by intensive prayer and spiritual abandonment of self to the great universal Soul of the Universe, to get the supreme blessing of direct communion with Absolute Reality.

Just as the events of Easter Week become part of Christianity and the hope of men, so the death-bed scene of our Holy Prophet, so well authenticated by evidence, took place in the presence of his two cousins, Ali and Ibn-Abbas, his wives, and above all, his future great successor, the Caliph Omar, then one of his leading companions. All this evidence is exactly the same. The last words of the Prophet were "Companionship on High."

This is a third way of looking at survival after death (apart from the Biblical raising of the body, and from the indefinite and varied doctrines of the several Hindu schools of thought and the two great Buddhist Northern and Southern sects). It is the hope of all true Muslims, like their Prophet, namely, "Companionship on High."

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon May 18, 2009 12:14 pm

Azmina Suleman had a NDE (Near Death Experience) and wrote a book describing the experience. The book is called A Passage to Eternity. In her experience she had an experience of a view of all her past lives! It is quite a compelling account and has caused me to change my opinion on this issue. I strongly recommend that those who are interested in this debate read it.

I think there is a need to have a zaher/batin approach to this subject. From the zaheri perspective there is no reincarnation but rebirths into non-material forms; from a batini perspective there is.

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon May 18, 2009 12:33 pm

Azmina Suleman had a NDE (Near Death Experience) and wrote a book describing the experience. The book is called A Passage to Eternity. In her experience she had an experience of a view of all her past lives! It is quite a compelling account and has caused me to change my opinion on this issue. I strongly recommend that those who are interested in this debate read it.

I think there is a need to have a zaher/batin approach to this subject. From the zaheri perspective there is no reincarnation but rebirths into non-material forms; from a batini perspective there is.

i agree with you brother meherali

the zahir part is your body and batin is your soul and we all know that soul never dies , this topic is about reincarnation [punarjanam/rebirth]

lemme ask you a very simple question , if you and me were monkeys in the past or a fish[machi avatar] why couldnt we remember anything of our past ??????

our holy imam himself said @ above that the stories which were created by the hindus is not a fact

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:46 pm

hungama25 wrote:
lemme ask you a very simple question , if you and me were monkeys in the past or a fish[machi avatar] why couldnt we remember anything of our past ??????

Ya ALI Madad

You will remember your past life only if you recognize your origin. I mean when you reach your destination or Fana Fillah then Inshallah you will be able to recognize your past life. Look at Mowlana Rumi, He reached his origin that is why he can see his past life. He used to be a Monkey then he died and born in human form. To bring your past life, first you gotta Enlighten yourself like our Holy Pirs, then you will be able to realize your past life and future life.

Regard

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:52 pm

hungama25 wrote:
lemme ask you a very simple question , if you and me were monkeys in the past or a fish[machi avatar] why couldnt we remember anything of our past ??????

our holy imam himself said @ above that the stories which were created by the hindus is not a fact

It is the greatest mercy that we do not remember our past lives. After death our egos and all that goes with it in terms of our normal consciousness gets buried. Through Ibadat one is able to elevate oneself to a higher level of consciousness through which one can glimpse the past momentarily. Azmina was given the gift of this experience and she was able to see her past lives and also come close to her Lord Ali. I strongly recommend you read this book.

MSMS has made Farmans relating to reincarnation. Below are excerpts.

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:02 pm

MSMS has made Farmans relating to reincarnation. Below are excerpts.

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

no offense brother meherali but both the firmans are contradicting each other

in the first firman our imam is talking about evolution , for instance even if we agree that imam is talking about reincarnation then the second firman contradicts the first becuase in the second firman our mawla said :

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:06 pm

hungama25 wrote:MSMS has made Farmans relating to reincarnation. Below are excerpts.

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

no offense brother meherali but both the firmans are contradicting each other

in the first firman our imam is talking about evolution , for instance even if we agree that imam is talking about reincarnation then the second firman contradicts the first becuase in the second firman our mawla said :

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

You really need to read the farman and understand - the second farman talks about escaping the cycles - it actually supports the first farman - it tells us to ASPIRE to something..so that our Soul doesn't have to take birth again.

Shams

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon May 18, 2009 3:48 pm

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

brother shamsB , the reason why our imam gave this firman is because he was very unhappy to see the way our jamat was progressing, he simply used the example of a dog/donkey and beast which shows "EVIL"

similarly if the child commits the same mistake again and again we would say

" dint i told you 1000 times to stay away from ........ "

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)

there is no such thing called cycles brother shamsB and since you gave me the holy firman lemme show you how it contradicts

“Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God” (Memoirs of Aga Khan III, 1954)

not just the imam ,even the holy quran says :

“If only you could see [the time] when the sinners will bow their heads before their Lord, [saying], ‘Our Lord! We have now seen and heard, so send us back and we will do righteous deeds. Verily, we now believe with certainty.’” (Quran 32:12)

“But if they were returned [to this world], they would certainly go back to what was forbidden to them. Indeed they are liars.” (Quran 6:28)

so brother shamsB there is no return at all because if that was the case then why did allah created hell ??

plus if we read our ginans our pirs said this many souls got salvation and the rest went to dozakh so i dont see how reincarnation is possible

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:01 pm

brother shamsB

21:95 (Y. Ali) But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,

21:95 (Picktall) And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,

How can you reject Allah, when you were dead and then He gave you life, then He will make you die and then give you life again, then you will be returned to Him?
(Surat al-Baqara: 28)

As we see from this verse, at the very beginning we are dead: we have no existence whatsoever. Then Allah gives us life and human form from this state. Some time after this when our lives are over, our bodies decay and disintegrate into earth once again. This is our second transition to the state of being dead. All that remains is for us to rise again. This happens in the next world. We will all rise again in the afterlife; then we will understand that we can never return again to the world, and we will account for everything we did in this world.

hope this clears all the doubts regarding reincarnation

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon May 18, 2009 6:16 pm

hungama25 wrote:brother shamsB

21:95 (Y. Ali) But there is a ban on any population which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,

21:95 (Picktall) And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return,

How can you reject Allah, when you were dead and then He gave you life, then He will make you die and then give you life again, then you will be returned to Him?
(Surat al-Baqara: 28)

As we see from this verse, at the very beginning we are dead: we have no existence whatsoever. Then Allah gives us life and human form from this state. Some time after this when our lives are over, our bodies decay and disintegrate into earth once again. This is our second transition to the state of being dead. All that remains is for us to rise again. This happens in the next world. We will all rise again in the afterlife; then we will understand that we can never return again to the world, and we will account for everything we did in this world.

hope this clears all the doubts regarding reincarnation

Once again that is your viewpoint and your interpretation - that doesn't arbitrarily make it the ISMAILI VIEWPOINT.

As Hazar Imam said:
"Life is but a short passage through eternity. Do not think you are only here what is one existence."

Shams

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed May 20, 2009 8:34 pm

hungama25 wrote:"so brother shamsB there is no return at all because if that was the case then why did allah created hell ??

plus if we read our ginans our pirs said this many souls got salvation and the rest went to dozakh so i dont see how reincarnation is possible

The Ginans and Farmans also mention the lakh chorasi na fera meaning 184000 cycles. Dozakh or Hell is symbolic and it can be interpreted as cycles of rebirth.

I think it is also important to realize that the Quran is meant for the Muslim Umma with all its diverse interpretations. The Ginans and the Farmans reflect our tafsir of the Quran and therefore are more specific to our tariqah. Hence the Ginans/Farmans should supercede whatever is said in the Quran.

When one considers the statements of MSMS, he articulates the rebirth as non-material existence to the external audience and in his Farmans he articulates it as reincarnation. Hence while we cannot adopt reincarnation as our doctrine (in a zaheri sense), it is nevertheless a batini view (for the Jamat).

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Thu May 21, 2009 1:43 pm

I think it is also important to realize that the Quran is meant for the Muslim Umma with all its diverse interpretations. The Ginans and the Farmans reflect our tafsir of the Quran and therefore are more specific to our tariqah. Hence the Ginans/Farmans should supercede whatever is said in the Quran.

brother i understand what you're saying but you are not trying to understand what iam trying to tell you

it is said that even the holy quran came from the light of imam ali[as] , if thats correct then how can the light contradict because it is clearly mentioned in quran that once a person is dead he cannot come back where as our ginans say that our souls evolved some 100 000 times , are you getting my point brother ??

how can one light say that there is no reincarnation and the other say that there is reincarnation when both the light are same.

When one considers the statements of MSMS, he articulates the rebirth as non-material existence to the external audience and in his Farmans he articulates it as reincarnation. Hence while we cannot adopt reincarnation as our doctrine (in a zaheri sense), it is nevertheless a batini view (for the Jamat

but brother when our soul never dies then how can you explain this from batini point ?

batin is our soul and soul never dies inst it ??

what we both can do is research on this and insha allah we'll try to find what actually our imam meant to say

WAS HE TALKING ABOUT "RANKS" ???

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:34 pm

hungama25 wrote:
I think it is also important to realize that the Quran is meant for the Muslim Umma with all its diverse interpretations. The Ginans and the Farmans reflect our tafsir of the Quran and therefore are more specific to our tariqah. Hence the Ginans/Farmans should supercede whatever is said in the Quran.
brother i understand what you're saying but you are not trying to understand what iam trying to tell you

it is said that even the holy quran came from the light of imam ali[as] , if thats correct then how can the light contradict because it is clearly mentioned in quran that once a person is dead he cannot come back where as our ginans say that our souls evolved some 100 000 times , are you getting my point brother ??

how can one light say that there is no reincarnation and the other say that there is reincarnation when both the light are same.

When one considers the statements of MSMS, he articulates the rebirth as non-material existence to the external audience and in his Farmans he articulates it as reincarnation. Hence while we cannot adopt reincarnation as our doctrine (in a zaheri sense), it is nevertheless a batini view (for the Jamat

but brother when our soul never dies then how can you explain this from batini point ?

batin is our soul and soul never dies inst it ??

what we both can do is research on this and insha allah we'll try to find what actually our imam meant to say

WAS HE TALKING ABOUT "RANKS" ???

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not true..
you need to understand the difference between soul and lifeforce - or as our pirs have put it Jeev and Rooh.....
and we're not talking about the death of the soul - if you think the physical death entails the death of the soul - then you've not understood the process of life and death in our faith - and show me in the quran where it says someone dies and doesn't come back...

Yes..if I Shams die..i am not going to come back as Shams..Shams the body has died...but the jeev that was Shams - the lifeforce..has to answer for his deeds and actions and Karma and that jeev will come back...
and btw..as an Ismaili - we are dependent on the Imam not the quran
the word of the Imam always overrides the quran
our baiyat is to follow the Imam
The Imams preexisted the quran and will be there till the day of judgement.

and you're contradicting the pirs by your statements when we're clearly told by Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah on more than one occasion that the ginans are the translations of the quran given to you by the pirs in your own language - and if you were to understand and follow the ginans the Imam will not need to make farmans.

In your attempts to establish yourself as a pseudo-intellectual you're overlooking opportunities where you can learn and expand upon your knowledge.

One more thing..our faith is pluralistic..just because we don't accept and agree to your arabist/reformismailist view point doesn't mean that we are wrong....we are entitled to believe what we will..just as you are entitled to your beliefs.

Shams

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:58 pm

and show me in the quran where it says someone dies and doesn't come back...

23:99 (Y. Ali) (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-

23:100 (Y. Ali) "In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.

brother shamsB iam not a reformer , it is allah[swt] who is saying that you simply cannot come back

we dont see it in quran that allah[swt] is saying " ok shamB 1 you're out , shamsB 2 you're next "

no!!!

40:11 (Y. Ali) They will say: "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins: Is there any way out (of this)?"

The mentioning of two deaths and two lives in 40:11 may cause some interpreters to somehow connect the Qur'anic teachings to the concept of multiple births, however on closer examination we realise that the opposite is true.

The truth of the matter is that this very verse serves as another solid proof against any such theory

. 40:11 traces the progress of our course from the feud in the Heavenly Society (38:69) to the Day of Judgement. We made a covenant with God (5:7) and then we were put to death. That was our First death. The fact that we were all living in a previous life before being brought to earth is well confirmed in the Qur'an.

Consequently, the first death ended our life in the previous life which was in God's Kingdom and not here on earth. The second death ends the life of the disbelievers here on earth, hence they say to God: "You have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives."

The believers on the other hand do not taste the second death, after the end of their life on earth the angels invite them to enter heaven, they do not die but move straight to heaven.

Upon our first death, we were brought to this life to be given a further chance to redeem our souls and submit to God's absolute authority. This is our first and ONLY life on earth. The 'one death' for the believers and the 'two deaths' for the disbelievers set the rule that all humans have only one life on earth and that no one returns to earth after their death. This is clearly different from reincarnation which implies multiple lives and deaths for each individual.

28:77 (Picktall) But seek the abode of the Hereafter in that which Allah hath given thee and neglect not thy portion of the world, and be thou kind even as Allah hath been kind to thee, and seek not corruption in the earth; lo! Allah loveth not corrupters,

In this life every human being is apportioned a share in accordance with God's will. The Qur'an explains this concept in this verse.

This means that God has decreed for each human a share in this earthly life, which is entirely dependent on His will, and has nothing to do with one's actions in previous lives.

A concession for multiple lives would violate the concept of a fixed and preset share in this life, this is because each different life would encompass a different share, and not a set share as we read in 28:77.

anyways as you said you are entitled to believe what you will

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:16 pm

hungama25 wrote:
and show me in the quran where it says someone dies and doesn't come back...

23:99 (Y. Ali) (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-

23:100 (Y. Ali) "In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.

brother shamsB iam not a reformer , it is allah[swt] who is saying that you simply cannot come back

we dont see it in quran that allah[swt] is saying " ok shamB 1 you're out , shamsB 2 you're next "

no!!!

40:11 (Y. Ali) They will say: "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins: Is there any way out (of this)?"

The mentioning of two deaths and two lives in 40:11 may cause some interpreters to somehow connect the Qur'anic teachings to the concept of multiple births, however on closer examination we realise that the opposite is true.

The truth of the matter is that this very verse serves as another solid proof against any such theory . 40:11 traces the progress of our course from the feud in the Heavenly Society (38:69) to the Day of Judgement. We made a covenant with God (5:7) and then we were put to death. That was our First death. The fact that we were all living in a previous life before being brought to earth is well confirmed in the Qur'an.

Consequently, the first death ended our life in the previous life which was in God's Kingdom and not here on earth. The second death ends the life of the disbelievers here on earth, hence they say to God: "You have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives."

The believers on the other hand do not taste the second death, after the end of their life on earth the angels invite them to enter heaven, they do not die but move straight to heaven.

Upon our first death, we were brought to this life to be given a further chance to redeem our souls and submit to God's absolute authority. This is our first and ONLY life on earth. The 'one death' for the believers and the 'two deaths' for the disbelievers set the rule that all humans have only one life on earth and that no one returns to earth after their death. This is clearly different from reincarnation which implies multiple lives and deaths for each individual.

28:77 (Picktall) But seek the abode of the Hereafter in that which Allah hath given thee and neglect not thy portion of the world, and be thou kind even as Allah hath been kind to thee, and seek not corruption in the earth; lo! Allah loveth not corrupters,

In this life every human being is apportioned a share in accordance with God's will. The Qur'an explains this concept in this verse.

This means that God has decreed for each human a share in this earthly life, which is entirely dependent on His will, and has nothing to do with one's actions in previous lives.

A concession for multiple lives would violate the concept of a fixed and preset share in this life, this is because each different life would encompass a different share, and not a set share as we read in 28:77.

anyways as you said you are entitled to believe what you will

You're missing the point again...
i never said it's ShamsB1 and ShamsB2
ShamsB1 is the identity that is physical..that's what we give to the body...
you're so tied into the concept of the finite..when we're told..the Soul is eternal..and we're tying into that same concept.
The body is born..it grows old..it dies....the soul still hasn't evolved to fanafillah..so it is with a new body that it is born....

We are a batini faith..yet you're caught up in the physical cycles of life and death.

Dar es salaam 2005 - " Our lives are transitions"
Pakistan 1964 - "Do not think you are only here for what is ONE existence and thereafter you'll have to account for nothing"

For me..the Imam overrides anything that the Quran says...when he says..we're not here for just one existence..then we're not here for what is existence.

Shams

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:43 pm

You're missing the point again...
i never said it's ShamsB1 and ShamsB2
ShamsB1 is the identity that is physical..that's what we give to the body...
you're so tied into the concept of the finite..when we're told..the Soul is eternal..and we're tying into that same concept.
The body is born..it grows old..it dies....the soul still hasn't evolved to fanafillah..so it is with a new body that it is born....

We are a batini faith..yet you're caught up in the physical cycles of life and death.

Dar es salaam 2005 - " Our lives are transitions"
Pakistan 1964 - "Do not think you are only here for what is ONE existence and thereafter you'll have to account for nothing"

For me..the Imam overrides anything that the Quran says...when he says..we're not here for just one existence..then we're not here for what is existence.

brother i know what you're saying , when there is no coming back[at all !!!] then its pointless to say you wont come back as shamsB[physically etc etc]

and iam not at all confused with soul and body infact iam the one whose saying soul is eternal

, but the birth of a human being on earth is both physical and spiritual

physical = body and spiritual = soul[spirit of allah]

when a person dies he leaves his physical body behind but his soul will answer to god on judgement day

there is another verse in holy quran where allah said :

47:4 (Picktall) Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

47:5 (Picktall) He will guide them and improve their state,

47:6 (Picktall) And bring them in unto the Garden which He hath made known to them.

furthur allah[swt] says :

47:10 (Picktall) Have they not travelled in the land to see the nature of the consequence for those who were before them? Allah wiped them out. And for the disbelievers there will be the like thereof.

now will you attribute reincarnation @ above verse ?

ofcourse this life is nothing but a mere passage in the end you either go to hell or heaven but you cannot go back on earth .

but as you said different people have different opinion , if you think i have hurt your sentiments i sincerely apologise

salam
ya ali madad

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:25 pm

hungama25 wrote:
it is said that even the holy quran came from the light of imam ali[as] , if thats correct then how can the light contradict because it is clearly mentioned in quran that once a person is dead he cannot come back where as our ginans say that our souls evolved some 100 000 times , are you getting my point brother ??

The Light expresses itself according to the context. Quran caters for multiple possiblities of interpretations and hence sometimes it can contradict itself as well. Below are verses which suggest reincarnation...

2:28 How can you reject faith in Allah, seeing that you were without life and He gave you life, then He will cause you to die,and will again bring you to life, and again to Him will you return.

3:27 Thou bringest the living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure.

22:66 It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to die, and will again give you life. Truly, man is a most ungrateful creature.

36:12 Verily, We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind...

36:79 Say: "He will give them life again, He Who created them for the first time !"

hungama25 wrote: how can one light say that there is no reincarnation and the other say that there is reincarnation when both the light are same.

There are many contradictions in the Quran reflecting the diverse audience. Another example: there are verses which allude to the divinity of the Prophet, Verse ( 33:46) states that the Prophet was 'sirajun
munir' , a "shining lamp". Verse (5:15) states: "There came to you from
God a light and clear book". On the other hand there are verses that indicate that he was only an ordinary man, Sura 6:50 admonishes him: "Say: I do not say: 'With me are the treasures of God' and I do not know the invisible, and I do not say I am an angel - I follow only that which is revealed."

The above is clearly reflecting the different understanding of Prophethood. The esoteric Islam considers the Prophet as the Manifest Light where as the exoteric Islam consider him only as an ordinary man, hence the contradictions in the Quran.

hungama25 wrote: but brother when our soul never dies then how can you explain this from batini point ?

batin is our soul and soul never dies inst it ??

what we both can do is research on this and insha allah we'll try to find what actually our imam meant to say

WAS HE TALKING ABOUT "RANKS" ???

Yes our soul never dies. It progresses after death into the astral world and then depending upon its karma it either reincarnates, or merges into the Light.

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:13 pm

The Light expresses itself according to the context. Quran caters for multiple possiblities of interpretations and hence sometimes it can contradict itself as well. Below are verses which suggest reincarnation...

2:28 How can you reject faith in Allah, seeing that you were without life and He gave you life, then He will cause you to die,and will again bring you to life, and again to Him will you return.

"you were without life"- allah gives us shape,size in short he moulds us as mentioned in quran [you can check my previous post and you'll find the aayat]

He gave you life - all living things have soul, without which a person cannot survive, when allah[swt] said he gave you life that means he breath his holy spirit[which we call NOOR] in us

He will cause you to die - every single living thing lives for a fixed time and it the end they die which we called physical death

And will again bring you to life - judgement day !!! do i have to elaborate ???

3:27 Thou bringest the living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure.

again as i said earlier it is allah who gives us life[holy spirit] and it is he who takes it back [death]!! the verse dont even mention reincarnation what is talks is about greatness and mercy of allah that he first gives us a shape and then breathe his holy spirit into us so that we come to life and when the time comes he take it back !!!!

22:66 It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to die, and will again give you life. Truly, man is a most ungrateful creature.

again the same theory !!

life = mould+holy spirit
die = physical death
again life = judgement day where every soul will pay its price [ heaven/hell ]

36:12 Verily, We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind...
36:79 Say: "He will give them life again, He Who created them for the first time !"

life again =consciousness and on judgement day we all will be very much conscious

********************************

There are many contradictions in the Quran reflecting the diverse audience. Another example: there are verses which allude to the divinity of the Prophet, Verse ( 33:46) states that the Prophet was 'sirajun
munir' , a "shining lamp". Verse (5:15) states: "There came to you from
God a light and clear book". On the other hand there are verses that indicate that he was only an ordinary man, Sura 6:50 admonishes him: "Say: I do not say: 'With me are the treasures of God' and I do not know the invisible, and I do not say I am an angel - I follow only that which is revealed."

The above is clearly reflecting the different understanding of Prophethood. The esoteric Islam considers the Prophet as the Manifest Light where as the exoteric Islam consider him only as an ordinary man, hence the contradictions in the Quran.

brother meherali there is no contradiction in quran, one of names of prophet[saw] is MISBAH = LAMP , our rasool[saw] was a lamp that brought our jaahil forefathers from darkness to light [not by any magic] but by inspiration[quran]

when allah said light he dint meant that in ismaili context

where light = allah or noor of allah , allah[swt] is saying look at this light which we have sent for you[who lives in your own tribe and speaks your own language] since we all were in sheer darkness so that we can be guided .

then again you said that on other hand quran says that he was an ordinary man ...........brother our rasool[saw] never claimed any divinity nor showed any magic [just like h.musa[as] did when he hit earth with the stick by the permission of allah[swt]] unless inspired by allah[swt], the job of our rasool[saw] was to convey the message of allah[swt] which he did

lamp here means KNOWLEDGE and not ismaili interpretation of NOOR

hope i answered your question

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:04 pm

hungama25 wrote: again as i said earlier it is allah who gives us life[holy spirit] and it is he who takes it back [death]!! the verse dont even mention reincarnation what is talks is about greatness and mercy of allah that he first gives us a shape and then breathe his holy spirit into us so that we come to life and when the time comes he take it back !!!!

Reincarnation is not explicitly stated but the verse can be interpreted that way. We have Farmans which are considered as tafsir....

hungama25 wrote: brother meherali there is no contradiction in quran, one of names of prophet[saw] is MISBAH = LAMP , our rasool[saw] was a lamp that brought our jaahil forefathers from darkness to light [not by any magic] but by inspiration

If the Prophet is the Lamp what is the need of inspiration. Isn't the lamp by itself sufficient the dispel darkness?

hungama25 wrote: when allah said light he dint meant that in ismaili context where light = allah or noor of allah , allah[swt] is saying look at this light which we have sent for you[who lives in your own tribe and speaks your own language] since we all were in sheer darkness so that we can be guided .

Doesn't the Quran say: "Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth." Isn't Allah = Light?

hungama25 wrote: then again you said that on other hand quran says that he was an ordinary man ...........brother our rasool[saw] never claimed any divinity nor showed any magic [just like h.musa[as] did when he hit earth with the stick by the permission of allah[swt]] unless inspired by allah[swt], the job of our rasool[saw] was to convey the message of allah[swt] which he did

lamp here means KNOWLEDGE and not ismaili interpretation of NOOR

hope i answered your question

From the Zaheri perspective the Prophet never claimed any miracles, but from the batini perspective there have been a lot of legends and miracles in his life. I would recommend that you read the chapter: "Legends and Miracles" in "And Muhammad Is His Messenger" by Annemarie Schimmel.

In our tradition the Prophets and the Imams are not ordinary humans. They are the Bearers of the Noor.

The Prophet was called the Lamp and the Light(Nurun Mubin) as well.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:15 pm

kmaherali wrote:If the Prophet is the Lamp what is the need of inspiration. Isn't the lamp by itself sufficient the dispel darkness?
The Prophet was called the Lamp and the Light(Nurun Mubin) as well.

Oops! I meant: Isn't the Lamp by itself sufficient to dispel the darkness? I cannot edit my post!

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Fri May 22, 2009 7:05 pm

Reincarnation is not explicitly stated but the verse can be interpreted that way. We have Farmans which are considered as tafsir....

If the Prophet is the Lamp what is the need of inspiration. Isn't the lamp by itself sufficient the dispel darkness?

brother everything is mentioned in quran but we dont read as we believe we are haqiqati, the reson why allah[swt] sent 1,24,000 prophets[as] was not for amusement , every single prophet was a lamp=knowledge and they used to spread this knowledge to their generations so that they should know allah[swt].....apart from this the most important reason for sending prophets[as] was that on the day of judgement people should'nt say "o allah[swt] you never sent any prophet to us then how can you expect us to believe and follow you ??? "

dont forget allah[swt] is all wise

Doesn't the Quran say: "Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth." Isn't Allah = Light?

brother meherali there is a term "parable" in that same verse

parable = example

allah[swt] is giving us just one example from finite examples saying the parable of his state is that of a light, that does not mean that he is light only !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

allah[swt] is in all of us and at the same time he is everywhere but in order to see him and experience him we have to believe in him and follow the instructions laid down by him.

From the Zaheri perspective the Prophet never claimed any miracles, but from the batini perspective there have been a lot of legends and miracles in his life. I would recommend that you read the chapter: "Legends and Miracles" in "And Muhammad Is His Messenger" by Annemarie Schimmel.

In our tradition the Prophets and the Imams are not ordinary humans. They are the Bearers of the Noor.

The Prophet was called the Lamp and the Light(Nurun Mubin) as well.

ofcourse he did but that was inspired by allah[swt] , not just him

h.dawood[as] = he had such a beautiful voice that when he used to pray to allah[swt] even animals used to come and sit beside him

h.sulaiman[as] = great king and judge

h.ibrahim[as] = becoming a father at the age of 100

h.musa[as] = strinking the rock on allah's order

h.nuh[as] = his ship

h.issa[as] = speaking when he was an adolescent

every prophet was divinely inspired and totally supported by allah[swt], the above miracles was not done by prophets[as] but it was allah[swt] who did it as mentioned in quran

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:23 pm

hungama25 wrote:every prophet was divinely inspired and totally supported by allah[swt], the above miracles was not done by prophets[as] but it was allah[swt] who did it as mentioned in quran

So what is the difference between us and the Prophets? Why can't we all perform miracles with the help of Allah? Why can't we receive revelations like the Prophets? Is our knowledge equal to that of the Prophet? If not, in what way is it different? Why should we obey the Prophet if he is only human like us?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:50 am

hungama25 wrote: brother meherali there is a term "parable" in that same verse

parable = example

allah[swt] is giving us just one example from finite examples saying the parable of his state is that of a light, that does not mean that he is light only !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The point being made is that the Light or the Noor in whatever manner one considers it related to Allah is manifest in the Prophet and hence he is not anyone like us but bears the Light. Hence the Quran appears contradictory in that respect.

hungama25_2 · Post by **hungama25_2** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:03 pm

So what is the difference between us and the Prophets? Why can't we all perform miracles with the help of Allah? Why can't we receive revelations like the Prophets? Is our knowledge equal to that of the Prophet? If not, in what way is it different? Why should we obey the Prophet if he is only human like us?

good question brother meherali, but i think you dint read my previous post, i said all the prophets were divinely inspired. Are we divinely inspired ?? a prophet[as] is a human being just like you and me and allah send 1,24,000 prophets to different tribes so that they can teach and warn people about allah and having faith in him in their OWN LANGUAGE

a miracle is a divine act which defies and transcends universal norms and laws, which Allah grants to his messengers and apostles in order to convince people of the truth of their message. With this heavenly support mundane laws and natural phenomena are caused to yield in such an overwhelming way that all attempts at rational explanation are defeated.

knowing that His messengers would inevitably be challenged to perform such miracles, Allah bestowed upon them this power. Thus was Abraham[as] able to withstand burning by the fire; Jesus[as] restored sight to the blind and raised the dead; and Moses[as] parted the Red Sea. The miracle of Muhammad (saw) was the Quran itself.

A true miracle defies all natural laws established by Allah, which could not be violated or suspended, except by His Will. The exact object of each Messenger’s miracle was a challenge to particular traits of each of the groups of people to whom they were sent.

A miracle would be futile if it did not achieve its desired effect on its witnesses. For it to have full impact, it should relate to an area of knowledge in which its intended audience are well versed. For example, if the people for whom a Messenger has been sent excel in medicine, sorcery or philology, the miracle should also concern these fields.

Divine miracles are not limited to challenges they present to the people before whom they occur, but are also designed to provide them with the capacity to perceive them as signs of His power over all things in the Universe.

This was illustrated by the miracles in which Allah protected Abraham from the burning fire, and caused Moses the infant to be rescued from drowning in the Nile. In both these miracles, the laws of nature were suspended, through the will of Allah and their physical properties neutralised.

Abraham’s miracle was designed to challenge the idolators who by burning him alive sought revenge against him after he had insulted their idols. This punishment, besides being a challenge to Abraham’s God, and a demonstration of the power of their idols was meant to serve as a warning to anyone tempted to defy the idols.

One may ask, why would Allah leave His servant Abraham to go through this horrifying experience? Why did He not inspire him to flee his tormentors? Had Allah helped Abraham to escape this the idolators would have had reason to continue believing in the superiority of their idols, over the power of Allah. At the same time, they would have persisted in believing that Abraham was incapable of escaping their idols’ wrath. Abraham’s ordeal by fire was necessary for this miracle to take place in order to demonstrate to the idolators the falsity of their idols. Any heavenly assistance to Abraham before actually being forced into the fire would have deprived the miracle of its full impact. The idolators would have them been able to attribute their idols’ inability to destroy Abraham, to such an intervention. But Allah wanted the whole act to be carried out in order that the full impact of the miracle be comprehended. Thus, when Abraham was hurled into the fire Allah caused its nature to burn to be suspended, enabling Abraham to stand within the flames unharmed as a challenge to the idolators.

The purpose behind this miracle was not to save Abraham from his fate per se. If this had been Allah’s wish, He would not have enabled the idolators to capture him. He actually wanted them to watch Abraham standing in the burning fire unscathed, in defiance of their idols. This proved that the idols were incapable of inflicting harm on the apostle who had insulted them. Only in this way could the idolators be convinced of the falsehood of their idols and of the truth of Abraham’s God. Of this miracle Allah says: [in the Quran:]

“We said: O fire, be coolness and peace for Abraham.” (al-Anbiya’ 21:69)

i told you brother meherali, allah[swt] is all wise and all powerful

plus there are some maharaja/guru in hindu cult who claim that they are lord or allah[nouzbillah] by performing magic , heres what allah[swt] said in holy quran :

“And the magicians fell down prostrate, crying: We believe in the Lord of the worlds, the Lord of Moses and Aaron.” (al-Araf 7:120-2)

most of allllllllllllll brother meherali our holy rasool[saw] was an illiterate , the Quran with its literary inimitability was all the more astonishing because Muhammad himself was illiterate when the Quran was revealed to him. When the Arabs failed to match the language of the Quran, they accused Muhammad of sorcery and even of being insane.

The miraculous features of the Quran are not confined to its linguistic inimitability. Indeed, it is filled with miraculous signs that will remain a challenge to mankind for eternity. One of the miraculous features of the Quran lies in the ever-expanding nature of the meanings contained in its verses and their inexhaustible capacity to accommodate even the most recent scientific discoveries.

A miracle can transcend the laws of nature or defy the characteristics of natural phenomena without posing a specific challenge to man. In this kind of miracle, Allah does not seek to challenge mankind, but to show His domination over the universe and man’s incapacity to understand such occurrences in terms of cause and effects. Consequently, a true believer should always be prepared to attribute those happenings which he cannot find an accountable cause to the will of Allah.

hope i answered your question brother

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:32 pm

hungama25 wrote: good question brother meherali, but i think you dint read my previous post, i said all the prophets were divinely inspired. Are we divinely inspired ?? a prophet[as] is a human being just like you and me and allah send 1,24,000 prophets to different tribes so that they can teach and warn people about allah and having faith in him in their OWN LANGUAGE

This is precisely the point I am trying to make. The Prophets are divinely inspired and hence they are not like us. They have been endowed with extraordinary capacity through Ibadat. Not everyone of us has the capacity to recieve revelations.

hungama25 wrote: a miracle is a divine act which defies and transcends universal norms and laws, which Allah grants to his messengers and apostles in order to convince people of the truth of their message. With this heavenly support mundane laws and natural phenomena are caused to yield in such an overwhelming way that all attempts at rational explanation are defeated.
]

Again the Prophets have being granted the means to perform authentic miracles. We cannot perform them hence we are different than the Prophets. That is the point I am trying to make. We are different!

hungama25 wrote: most of allllllllllllll brother meherali our holy rasool[saw] was an illiterate , the Quran with its literary inimitability was all the more astonishing because Muhammad himself was illiterate when the Quran was revealed to him. When the Arabs failed to match the language of the Quran, they accused Muhammad of sorcery and even of being insane.

The Prophet was unlettered in the sense that his knowledge was not acquired but it was innate, not that he could not read and write. That again differentiates us from him. Our knowledge is acquired whereas the Prophet's knowledge is innate. Hence we are different!

divine786 · Post by **divine786** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:28 pm

This is precisely the point I am trying to make. The Prophets are divinely inspired and hence they are not like us. They have been endowed with extraordinary capacity through Ibadat. Not everyone of us has the capacity to recieve revelations.

18:110 (Y. Ali) Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

rasool[saw] was divinely inspired and not DIVINE himself.

Again the Prophets have being granted the means to perform authentic miracles. We cannot perform them hence we are different than the Prophets. That is the point I am trying to make. We are different!

Obey the messenger is conditional on having the message, the Quran. Obey the messenger because of the message he has, the QURAN. Obey the messenger means to follow his message that is given to him, the QURAN.

Muhammed without the message is just a regular human being, he frowned and turned away when the blind poor man came to him, (See 80:1-11), he feared the people when he was supposed to fear only God, (See 33:37), and he prohibited what he should not prohibit, (See 66:1)

That is why there has never been a single order in the Quran from God,the Most Cognizant to "Obey Muhammed[saw]." If we were to obey Muhammed the human being,(not the messenger), we were to frown at the poor, fear the people instead of God and prohibit what God did not. We are required to obey the messenger, because it is the message (QURAN) that made the obedience a requirement, not the person, Muhammed[saw], that made it a requirement.

The Prophet was unlettered in the sense that his knowledge was not acquired but it was innate, not that he could not read and write. That again differentiates us from him. Our knowledge is acquired whereas the Prophet's knowledge is innate. Hence we are different!

"...this is not a fabricated Hadith, this (QURAN) confirms all previous scriptures,
provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those
who believe." 12:111

understood the above aayat ??

now read in the name of allah[swt]

7:157 (Y. Ali) "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

7:158 (Y. Ali) day: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

divine786 · Post by **divine786** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:00 pm

back on topic = reincarnation ,since some people ask for a proof from holy ginans heres what pir shams said in his holy ginan :

The deserted village will rehabitate and the poor will become rich. However, there is one astonishing sight: Brother, nobody can come to life after dying.

[Sloko Nano]
-- Pir Shams

regards

follower of divine

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:06 pm

divine786 wrote: 18:110 (Y. Ali) Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

rasool[saw] was divinely inspired and not DIVINE himself.

There is another verse which states:

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad SAW) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad SAW) and a plain Book (this Qur'an). (5:15)

I think it is a matter of interpretation. The above verse indicates that the Prophet himself was the Light. That is why I stated that the Quran appears contradictory. In his memoir MSMS who is the authoritative interpreter of faith says:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout....The Imam is thus the successor of the Prophet in his religious capacity."

If according to the above statement Hazarat Ali was divine, it follows that the Prophet was also divine.

divine786 wrote: Obey the messenger is conditional on having the message, the Quran. Obey the messenger because of the message he has, the QURAN. Obey the messenger means to follow his message that is given to him, the QURAN. !

We recite in our second part of Dua. "Obey Allah, Obey the Apostle and obey those in authority amongst you". Hence we obey the Apostle unconditionally like obedience to Allah. MHI when he makes Farmans does not have a physical Quran with him, although he has the Light.

divine786 wrote: 7:157 (Y. Ali) "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

7:158 (Y. Ali) day: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."

I never said that he was not unlettered. All I said was unlettered can be interpreted as his not was not acquired but it was innate within him. His knowledge in other words was not corrupted but pure.