Hungama,
You proved my point that MHI trumps Quran, MHI is the living Quran and the noor is carried throughout each generation.
In regards to your aayat, as I've said before, the use of repenting implies that there is guilt meaning that the 2 men are engaging in sodomy not because they love each other but for some ulterior motive. Therefore, it most likely refers to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts.
I see you're desperate enough to use the bible for your arguments, a book written decades after the passing of Christ by men and is inconsistent over time.
Are you seriously comparing the way a group of people act during the Gay Pride Parade with how people will act in Khane? Are you seriously that stupid? I know lawyers who lie, does that mean any ismaili who practices law shouldn't be allowed in khane? Your ability to believe your own hypocritical points astounds me.
While I have conceded that there is no concrete proof as to the cause of homosexuals in regards to genetics, you still have to prove it's a conscious decision for it to be a sin. I'm not mixing my views with your post, I'm trying to get you to put some fact in your statements. You probably know a few people who are gay but you can't tell. You're not even making this a debate on the viewpoint of homosexuality, but your stupidity and prejudice vs fact. You're one of the few people who actually believe gay people have the intention to sin in every way possible and devote their life to it.
So, straight up, no emoticons, no sarcastic remarks; tell me and the people who read this thread how you believe homosexuals come to be. If you can't do that, it is fair to conclude that you're spreading ignorant hate.
You're clearly over-compensating about the respect, everyone can tell. And if people you know actually are excited about learning more about islam, I hope you are referring them to someone who ACTUALLY knows something about the faith, rather, than you, the person who prides themselves on going against the core ethics of our faith.
The ball's in your court.
Gem,
I believe those passages refer to the idea of heterosexuals engaging in homosexual activities. History shows that this was popular before the enforcement of religion. And I clear understanding at what causes homosexuality would shine a light. I don't feel that homosexuals failed to become straight, I know they've said it would make things easier if it were a choice especially when they first came out of the closet because they face ridicule for their orientation, even in Canada. Some of the gays I know are deeply religious before and after the came out and some are atheists. Expecting a gay to become straight is like expecting you or me to become gay. If it turned out homosexuality was good and heterosexuality was bad we may both try but but we wouldn't truly succeed, I will always have my eye on the opposite sex as a homosexual will desire those of the same sex.
Sometimes it seems like there's a correlation between freedom and things like homosexuality. Freedom may encourage heterosexuals to try homosexual acts, and that is the cost of freedom just like how some ismailis smoke and/or drink because they're in a society that allows it. But it is hard to universally explain that and it's hard to say whether there was a strong grasp at what it meant to be a homosexual 1400 years ago. Back then, everyone was 'straight' and some people committed sodomy. I feel the Quran has a lot of gray area on that matter and to grasp a black & white view on the subject would be premature and a bit foolish, and I may be partially guilty about that because some of my views on homosexuality being allowed within faith are a bit extreme, but at the very least we can all agree that we should accept the homosexuals that live amongst us and go to our khanes. If it turns out that what I fought for may be false, at least they will have the support of the jamat rather than fearing their spiritual brothers and sisters.
Farman on Homosexuality?
You proved my point that MHI trumps Quran, MHI is the living Quran and the noor is carried throughout each generation.
my dear brother i said "ali is with quran and quran is with ali" , there is no way that the quran can trump my imam or my imam can trump quran !!
plus did we see love in bible or quran ????????
the verse relates to LUST , LUST FOR MAN
and i see you're desperate enough to say " oh quran is time bound" , the verse is for sodomy but does not realte to the way gays have sex etc etc
does that lawyer talks/walks like a woman ???
the topic is whether gays[ people who swing the other way ] should be allowed in jk
as i said earlier if you are gay fine but do not call yourself ismaili gay, get that ?
hahahahahaha what happened to your gay genetics now ?
tai tai fish !!!!
i already proved this when i said there is no such thing called gay genes ,its by choice
you said gay genes exist then why cant you prove it ????
even after knowing what happened in the past people even today practise homosexuality believeing that it is genetic and it just happens but unfortunately science was not able to prove that gay genes do exist. and that means that it is not driven by faith, it is by choice and such choice is prohibited in quran
happy ???
The ball's in your court.
my dear brother i said "ali is with quran and quran is with ali" , there is no way that the quran can trump my imam or my imam can trump quran !!
i asked you last time how do gays have sex? what is sodomy ?In regards to your aayat, as I've said before, the use of repenting implies that there is guilt meaning that the 2 men are engaging in sodomy not because they love each other but for some ulterior motive. Therefore, it most likely refers to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts.
plus did we see love in bible or quran ????????
the verse relates to LUST , LUST FOR MAN
I see you're desperate enough to use the bible for your arguments, a book written decades after the passing of Christ by men and is inconsistent over time.
and i see you're desperate enough to say " oh quran is time bound" , the verse is for sodomy but does not realte to the way gays have sex
etc etcdoes that lawyer dresses like a woman ???Are you seriously comparing the way a group of people act during the Gay Pride Parade with how people will act in Khane? Are you seriously that stupid? I know lawyers who lie, does that mean any ismaili who practices law shouldn't be allowed in khane? Your ability to believe your own hypocritical points astounds me.
does that lawyer talks/walks like a woman ???
the topic is whether gays[ people who swing the other way ] should be allowed in jk
as i said earlier if you are gay fine but do not call yourself ismaili gay, get that ?
While I have conceded that there is no concrete proof as to the cause of homosexuals in regards to genetics, you still have to prove it's a conscious decision for it to be a sin.
hahahahahaha
what happened to your gay genetics now ?tai tai fish !!!!
i already proved this when i said there is no such thing called gay genes ,its by choice
you said gay genes exist then why cant you prove it ????
correct !!!You're one of the few people who actually believe gay people have the intention to sin in every way possible and devote their life to it.
homosexuality is the product of one civilization which lived in a very uncivilized manner [mentioned in quran] and thus beared the consequences.So, straight up, no emoticons, no sarcastic remarks; tell me and the people who read this thread how you believe homosexuals come to be. If you can't do that, it is fair to conclude that you're spreading ignorant hate.
even after knowing what happened in the past people even today practise homosexuality believeing that it is genetic
and it just happens but unfortunately science was not able to prove that gay genes do exist. and that means that it is not driven by faith, it is by choice and such choice is prohibited in quran happy ???
oh really ?? is gayism one of our ethics ??You're clearly over-compensating about the respect, everyone can tell. And if people you know actually are excited about learning more about islam, I hope you are referring them to someone who ACTUALLY knows something about the faith, rather, than you, the person who prides themselves on going against the core ethics of our faith.
The ball's in your court.
You really are that stupid...
Prove to me it's a choice, people don't say I want to sin because I want to sin, maybe you do, but we've already established your stupidity and hypocrisy. Surely if it has existed for so long and within islamic civilizations (are you saying the islamic empire was uncivilized?)
The point I've been getting across that you're too stupid and prejudice to get is that gays have love for the same sex. Maybe you believe everybody is as twisted as you and lusts after everything.
There are many straight men who dress as women, and most gays aren't transvestites as you foolishly claim. And even if a man decided to wear a sari to khane, what's the difference, do you find yourself lusting after men who dress like women and does that distract you from praying like you should be doing. You're imposing your sexist views on others, a person can walk however they wish and talk in whatever style they wish and dress as they like. And what they're doing isn't objectionable because you said they're doing it like women and women are dressing like that in khane. If you can't tolerate other people and get over your prejudice you should pray at home instead of demanding people to meet your irrational standards. The quran says nothing of cross-dressing, so you should have no issue with it.
To argue your notion of banning gays from khane, let's presume it is a sin to be gay. Will you also ban any one who ever drank alcohol, smoked a cigarette, etc. Also, how do you prove someone is gay. Despite what your stereotypical view of the world may lead you to believe, most gays don't dress like women and most lesbians don't dress like men. And I doubt they plan to fornicate in khane, and it would be an issue if anyone fornicated in khane. If a homosexual wants to be an ismaili who are you to reject them, they make a pledge to Allah, not you, and if you have a problem with that you can start your own religion. Copernicus called and you are NOT the center of the universe!
Proving genetics isn't the cause of homosexuality doesn't prove that it is a choice. You have yet to prove it is a conscious decision... I'm assuming you can't, so I guess you're wrong considering the proof I have of it carrying through species meaning that sexual orientation goes beyond and conscious control we as humans have in our lives. Unless you can prove otherwise your argument is a sham.
Prove to me it's a choice, people don't say I want to sin because I want to sin, maybe you do, but we've already established your stupidity and hypocrisy. Surely if it has existed for so long and within islamic civilizations (are you saying the islamic empire was uncivilized?)
The point I've been getting across that you're too stupid and prejudice to get is that gays have love for the same sex. Maybe you believe everybody is as twisted as you and lusts after everything.
There are many straight men who dress as women, and most gays aren't transvestites as you foolishly claim. And even if a man decided to wear a sari to khane, what's the difference, do you find yourself lusting after men who dress like women and does that distract you from praying like you should be doing. You're imposing your sexist views on others, a person can walk however they wish and talk in whatever style they wish and dress as they like. And what they're doing isn't objectionable because you said they're doing it like women and women are dressing like that in khane. If you can't tolerate other people and get over your prejudice you should pray at home instead of demanding people to meet your irrational standards. The quran says nothing of cross-dressing, so you should have no issue with it.
To argue your notion of banning gays from khane, let's presume it is a sin to be gay. Will you also ban any one who ever drank alcohol, smoked a cigarette, etc. Also, how do you prove someone is gay. Despite what your stereotypical view of the world may lead you to believe, most gays don't dress like women and most lesbians don't dress like men. And I doubt they plan to fornicate in khane, and it would be an issue if anyone fornicated in khane. If a homosexual wants to be an ismaili who are you to reject them, they make a pledge to Allah, not you, and if you have a problem with that you can start your own religion. Copernicus called and you are NOT the center of the universe!
Proving genetics isn't the cause of homosexuality doesn't prove that it is a choice. You have yet to prove it is a conscious decision... I'm assuming you can't, so I guess you're wrong considering the proof I have of it carrying through species meaning that sexual orientation goes beyond and conscious control we as humans have in our lives. Unless you can prove otherwise your argument is a sham.
Prove to me it's a choice, people don't say I want to sin because I want to sin, maybe you do, but we've already established your stupidity and hypocrisy. Surely if it has existed for so long and within islamic civilizations (are you saying the islamic empire was uncivilized?)
how frustrated you are my brother, the story in quran is the story of the nation who was as dumb and stupid as you are, even gem tried to prove you that homosexuality is haram in islam but you have invented a new islam in which everything is allowedyou are sooooo retarted that for you drinking alcohol/smoking, drugs etc etc is haram but gayism is halal why ??? because deep inside you are gay yourself
again as usual instead of proving that gayism is genetic you simply answered my question with the question
ofcourse you are a chicken so i aint complaining
i already told you that its not genetic , its by choice and quran supports my statement
26:165 (Y. Ali) "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,
26:166 (Y. Ali) "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
26:166 (Picktall) And leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are froward folk.
come on now start your song of sodomy well by now everybody knows who is more twisted
plussssssssss
29:28 (Y. Ali) And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.
this aayat talks about people = human beings....the nation to which h.lut[as] was sent was the first nation who started practising gay sex[ah ah close your mouth] and this is what i said in my last post !!
it was a gift of one civilisation which lived in a veryyyyyyyyyy uncivilised manner
and its ok to be furious bro espically when you are being slapped with proofs again and again
There are many straight men who dress as women, and most gays aren't transvestites as you foolishly claim. And even if a man decided to wear a sari to khane, what's the difference, do you find yourself lusting after men who dress like women and does that distract you from praying like you should be doing.
thank you , this is what i wanted to hear...now i leave this on those who have more knowledge [as you said] than meScience and the Quran don't conflict, if you believe you're not corrupted by your own prejudices you should be able to prove it scientifically. The absence of one theory doesn't justify your own. I've provided evidence to suggest that the explanation goes beyond conscious thought, which is what causes us to sin.
So you lust after men Hungama, I said it doesn't concern you what someone's sexual orientation is. I'm really amused at how much you struggle to twist my words and try to dodge your ways out of the hypocritical claims you've made. You really are that stupid!
So you lust after men Hungama, I said it doesn't concern you what someone's sexual orientation is. I'm really amused at how much you struggle to twist my words and try to dodge your ways out of the hypocritical claims you've made. You really are that stupid!
I was a little unclear what was so offensive about the video... what, exactly, were you disturbed by, Hungama? There was like one trans person, but all the schools of Islam accept transgenderism, so I hope it wasn't that.
So some gay people were in a march... what's the drama, exactly?
sister lemme put it this way , what happens if a person is a transsexual but is not gay? i dont think non-gay transsexuals exist, but a possibility exists. but then again, if you change into a woman and you marry a woman, you would be considered gay by everyone. if you changed into a woman and married a man you are gay. so i guess it doesnt matter.
a gay is a gay sister !! then no matter if you keep your gender and lust for woman or change your gender and lust for men
are you getting my point ?
thank you
as always, trying to twist the topicScience and the Quran don't conflict, if you believe you're not corrupted by your own prejudices you should be able to prove it scientifically. The absence of one theory doesn't justify your own. I've provided evidence to suggest that the explanation goes beyond conscious thought, which is what causes us to sin.
i gave you aayats regarding homosex ,which is haram in quran
instead of proving that homosex is not haram from quran you are busy manipulating quran as and whole
if you can prove me from quran that the crap that you are talking is legal/halal then i will leave this debate, i'll accept my defeat !!
simple !!
instead of getting slapped again n again with the proofs presented by me/gem and all others ,kindly prove it from quran
Last edited by hungama25 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No, you aren't gay if you are a woman who marries a man. The majority of Muslims, Shi'i and Sunni alike, follow schools of fiqh that have ruled in favour of transgenderism. Al-Azhar for the Sunnis ruled within the last 10 ten years and Ayatollah Khomeini was first to rule in favour among the 12ers back in 1982 after a related fatwa first made in 1962.hungama25 wrote:sister lemme put it this way , what happens if a person is a transsexual but is not gay? i dont think non-gay transsexuals exist, but a possibility exists. but then again, if you change into a woman and you marry a woman, you would be considered gay by everyone. if you changed into a woman and married a man you are gay. so i guess it doesnt matter.
Transgenderism is recognised world-wide by the fuquhaa' and the Ummah as a medical condition, just like it was established by the physicians at the same time.
This issue is separate from the issue of homosexuality.
Also, most transfolk are straight: if they transition to female, they marry men. If they transition to female, they date women. A minority, approximately the same as in the general population, are gay.
Stop winking at me. And no, I'm not "getting your point" because you have no idea what you are talking about when you discuss thse issues. If you want to have a sensible conversation, you'd better do some research on the subject.hungama25 wrote:a gay is a gay sister !! then no matter if you keep your gender and lust for woman or change your gender and lust for men
are you getting my point ?
No, you aren't gay if you are a woman who marries a man. The majority of Muslims, Shi'i and Sunni alike, follow schools of fiqh that have ruled in favour of transgenderism. Al-Azhar for the Sunnis ruled within the last 10 ten years and Ayatollah Khomeini was first to rule in favour among the 12ers back in 1982 after a related fatwa first made in 1962.
i said if a man changes his gender and marries a man, it is haram because before changing his gender he was gay and even after changing his gender he'z still gay.
just to let you know that sunnis do not allow a man [who is not proud of his manhood] to change his sex for the sake of pleasure .
doing such operations is kind of toying with and changing the creation of allah
It is proven in al-Saheeh that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed men who imitate women and women who imitate men. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5546.
Imam al-Bukhaari included this hadeeth in two chapters: (1) under the heading: “It is forbidden for men who resemble women to enter upon women” and (2) under the heading: “Expelling men who resemble women from people’s houses.”
And there is other evidence which indicates that it is haraam. For more information, please see the book Ahkaam al-Jaraahah al-Tibbiyyah, p. 199
Dr Muhammad ‘Ali al-Barr said: Although the outward appearance of such a person may deceive you into thinking that he is female, in fact his biological structure remains male, even if it has been obliterated completely. Moreover, there is no ovary or uterus and such a person cannot menstruate or get pregnant at all.
Transgenderism is recognised world-wide by the fuquhaa' and the Ummah as a medical condition, just like it was established by the physicians at the same time.
This issue is separate from the issue of homosexuality.
is that so ? kindly give us the authentic references please and also explain to us how homosexuality and transgender are two different things
seriously are you A craps sister ??? there should be a limit of foolishness isnt it ?Also, most transfolk are straight: if they transition to female, they marry men. If they transition to female, they date women. A minority, approximately the same as in the general population, are gay.
if a person is straight then why would he/she change his/her gender ??
and then you said stop laughing/winking , well sister when you'll start talking about things that make sense i will definately stop laughing
I will not have a conversation with you if you are going to be such a troll. A male-to-female who is transgendered WASN'T A MAN.hungama25 wrote:It is proven in al-Saheeh that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed men who imitate women and women who imitate men. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5546.
Imam al-Bukhaari included this hadeeth in two chapters: (1) under the heading: “It is forbidden for men who resemble women to enter upon women” and (2) under the heading: “Expelling men who resemble women from people’s houses.”
And there is other evidence which indicates that it is haraam. For more information, please see the book Ahkaam al-Jaraahah al-Tibbiyyah, p. 199
Dr Muhammad ‘Ali al-Barr said: Although the outward appearance of such a person may deceive you into thinking that he is female, in fact his biological structure remains male, even if it has been obliterated completely. Moreover, there is no ovary or uterus and such a person cannot menstruate or get pregnant at all.
Transgenderism is recognised world-wide by the fuquhaa' and the Ummah as a medical condition, just like it was established by the physicians at the same time.
This issue is separate from the issue of homosexuality.
is that so ? kindly give us the authentic references please and also explain to us how homosexuality and transgender are two different things
seriously are you A craps sister ??? there should be a limit of foolishness isnt it ?Also, most transfolk are straight: if they transition to female, they marry men. If they transition to female, they date women. A minority, approximately the same as in the general population, are gay.
if a person is straight then why would he/she change his/her gender ??
If you want proofs, read the fataawah issued from al-Azhar, Khomeini, Khameini, or whoever issued them.
I'm not going to reply to any other comment you make until you stop acting like a troll, pretending ignorance, twisting statements, and ignoring what people are saying to you.hungama25 wrote:and then you said stop laughing/winking , well sister when you'll start talking about things that make sense i will definately stop laughing
I will not have a conversation with you if you are going to be such a troll. A male-to-female who is transgendered WASN'T A MAN.
If you want proofs, read the fataawah issued from al-Azhar, Khomeini, Khameini, or whoever issued them.
first of all i would like to apologise if i hurt your feelings sister, coming back to the topic sister
1] khomeini is neither an imam nor ahle bait
2] the reason why he said its lawful was because gays are forbidden in quran so in order to save gays from allah's wrath he said that its lawful to change the sex but ......... what he forgot was a person if hez a man will remain gay forever because once he undergoes an operation and changes his pidler into woman private parts he wont be able to mensturate, he wont be able to reproduce.
so in short sister he'z a SHEMAN, please dont get me wrong and this was the point i was trying to prove
no matter a person changes his sex or not he/she still remains gay for life
i never twisted any statement neither iam ignoring any of your posts, if i did then i wouldn't be asking you questions which are based on logicI'm not going to reply to any other comment you make until you stop acting like a troll, pretending ignorance, twisting statements, and ignoring what people are saying to you.
thank you
ya ali madad
Since you apologised, I will make another attempt.
1. Gender and sexuality are not the same. One is your appearance and presentation: feminine and masculine. The other is about your desire for love and such: do you love males, females or both? It is the position of the physicians, psychologists and specialists on sexuality and gender that this is the schema of the mind and body, and that transgendered folks are intersexed.
2. Among all the scholars in the Ummah who support the rights of transsexuals to transition to their correct gender and sex, Khomeini was the first, but the rest of Islam has basically followed his lead, from Sunni to 12er.
3. As for gay rights, Khomeini was STRONGLY against them; he was very clear that a transsexual woman (born appearing male) was not the same as a man who desires other men and that it was not licit for an actual man (as opposed to a transwoman) to change his sex just to legitimise same-sex love.
This is because homosexuality is not the same as transsexuality/transgenderism. Do not confuse and conflate the two.
He (and the scholars after him) did not issue the fatwah.hungama25 wrote:2] the reason why he said its lawful was because gays are forbidden in quran so in order to save gays from allah's wrath he said that its lawful to change the sex but ......... what he forgot was a person if hez a man will remain gay forever because once he undergoes an operation and changes his pidler into woman private parts he wont be able to mensturate, he wont be able to reproduce.
1. Gender and sexuality are not the same. One is your appearance and presentation: feminine and masculine. The other is about your desire for love and such: do you love males, females or both? It is the position of the physicians, psychologists and specialists on sexuality and gender that this is the schema of the mind and body, and that transgendered folks are intersexed.
2. Among all the scholars in the Ummah who support the rights of transsexuals to transition to their correct gender and sex, Khomeini was the first, but the rest of Islam has basically followed his lead, from Sunni to 12er.
3. As for gay rights, Khomeini was STRONGLY against them; he was very clear that a transsexual woman (born appearing male) was not the same as a man who desires other men and that it was not licit for an actual man (as opposed to a transwoman) to change his sex just to legitimise same-sex love.
This is because homosexuality is not the same as transsexuality/transgenderism. Do not confuse and conflate the two.
He (and the scholars after him) did not issue the fatwah.
sexuality = The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex ie man or woman.
gender = male/female, the male gender is defined by the presence of a Y-chromosome, and its absence in the female gender.
the definition which you gave sister is of sexual orientation and not sexuality
the reason why khomeini did this was to attract other sister branch gays and lesbians who think they are woman/man or vice versa
well i really appreciate your views on this but for me there is no difference between the two,its like two sides of the same coin.. just because gays and lesbians are haram in islam they have found a new method to satisfy their lust = transgender
1. Gender and sexuality are not the same. One is your appearance and presentation: feminine and masculine. The other is about your desire for love and such: do you love males, females or both? It is the position of the physicians, psychologists and specialists on sexuality and gender that this is the schema of the mind and body, and that transgendered folks are intersexed.
sexuality = The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex ie man or woman.
gender = male/female, the male gender is defined by the presence of a Y-chromosome, and its absence in the female gender.
the definition which you gave sister is of sexual orientation and not sexuality
sunni ?? could you please name them ?2. Among all the scholars in the Ummah who support the rights of transsexuals to transition to their correct gender and sex, Khomeini was the first, but the rest of Islam has basically followed his lead, from Sunni to 12er.
i already cleared this ,say for example if theres a man who thinks hez a woman [gay genetics remember?] and lusts for men then hez gay and if the same man undergoes an operation and becomes SHEMAN even then hez gay, the term used for SHEMAN is HIJRA [in india].3. As for gay rights, Khomeini was STRONGLY against them; he was very clear that a transsexual woman (born appearing male) was not the same as a man who desires other men and that it was not licit for an actual man (as opposed to a transwoman) to change his sex just to legitimise same-sex love.
the reason why khomeini did this was to attract other sister branch gays and lesbians who think they are woman/man or vice versa
This is because homosexuality is not the same as transsexuality/transgenderism. Do not confuse and conflate the two.
well i really appreciate your views on this but for me there is no difference between the two,its like two sides of the same coin.. just because gays and lesbians are haram in islam they have found a new method to satisfy their lust = transgender
Hungama, you have the definitions of sexuality and gender reversed. Gender is society's classification of masculine, feminine or neutral, while sexuality refers to classification of sex based on the presence of genitalia and/or chromosomes. Sexuality can also be used as a synonym to sexual orientation as sexuality has another definition of matters pertaining to sexual matters.
If a man does believe he is a woman, his attraction to men is not a result of homosexuality but gender confusion. And if he does undergo a sex change operation, he ceases to be a man making 'him' heterosexual. I disagree with your view that a sex change operation is violating the way Allah created us because by that logic any surgery like removing tumours, removing any non vital organs (appendix, gallbladder) would also be in the same violation. Although sometimes the advancement of medicine does make us wonder if we're going to far, but we'll leave that for the appropriate thread.
I disagree that transgendered are trying to find a 'loophole' because that's like saying eating turkey bacon is bad because it's meant to be like bacon made from pigs.
If a man does believe he is a woman, his attraction to men is not a result of homosexuality but gender confusion. And if he does undergo a sex change operation, he ceases to be a man making 'him' heterosexual. I disagree with your view that a sex change operation is violating the way Allah created us because by that logic any surgery like removing tumours, removing any non vital organs (appendix, gallbladder) would also be in the same violation. Although sometimes the advancement of medicine does make us wonder if we're going to far, but we'll leave that for the appropriate thread.
I disagree that transgendered are trying to find a 'loophole' because that's like saying eating turkey bacon is bad because it's meant to be like bacon made from pigs.
brother if a person having a tumour does not undergo the surgery he/she might die...is having a tumour same as having penis ?? is your penis contagious bro ??If a man does believe he is a woman, his attraction to men is not a result of homosexuality but gender confusion. And if he does undergo a sex change operation, he ceases to be a man making 'him' heterosexual. I disagree with your view that a sex change operation is violating the way Allah created us because by that logic any surgery like removing tumours, removing any non vital organs (appendix, gallbladder) would also be in the same violation. Although sometimes the advancement of medicine does make us wonder if we're going to far, but we'll leave that for the appropriate thread.
tumour is !!!
plus brother as i said last time a person can commit a mistake, allah[swt] cant !!!
if the turkey meat is not halal then yes it is haram to eat turkey bacon brotherI disagree that transgendered are trying to find a 'loophole' because that's like saying eating turkey bacon is bad because it's meant to be like bacon made from pigs.
No. Gender is your role and appearance, sex is your body (hormones, physical appearance, chromosomes), sexuality is to whom you are attracted.hungama25 wrote:the definition which you gave sister is of sexual orientation and not sexuality
This is why the terms transgender (someone whose gender presentation does not match their birth sex) and transsexual (someone whose current sex does not match their birth sex. We conflate the two, but they are not technically the same.
Transfolk transition because of body dysphoria, a deep-down mismatch between what your brain believes your body's sex is and what you actually have. It's not something you can pretend at or just do on a whim: there are a battery of examinations that are done to you to ensure you are actually experiencing this and to determine the best course of treatment.
Denied treatment, many transfolk commit suicide. The unbearable suffering transfolk endure because of dysphoria is no joke and isn't just "kidding around" or made up. It also transcends class: just as many wealthy folk as poor folk suffer it; just as many Americans as, say, Chinese or Pakistani people; just as many born-male people as born-female people do.
It's a form of intersexuality, but somehow because you can't physically see the problem, to you it is a game played by people who want to get laid.
Hijras are a whole different issue. They are not representative of transgenderism or of homosexuality, because hijras occupy a third gender, neither male nor female. Third and fourth genders are not uncommon in the world, even in the historical West. In Indonesia, which has the world's largest Muslim population (and I lived there), they have a third gender as well. In Oman, there is a third gender, the mukhannithah ("who is like a woman"). In Bosnia-Hercegovina, Muslim communities have virgjineshtë, which are women who live as men.
In all of these cases, modern medicine and Western social norms have caused some (for example) hijras to identify as transgender or transsexual, others as drag queen, and others are intersexed persons (having mixed sexual markers: male chromosomes but female body, etc.). This may be confusing the issue for you.
The first was issued from Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's preeminent religious foundation (founded, by the way, by the Fatimids). Othe scholars have followed.hungama25 wrote:sunni ?? could you please name them ?
No, I don't have them at my fingertips.
Gay men do not think they are women. Gay men are men. This is a very simple issue that you cannot seem to grasp: gay men do not want to be women any more than straight men want to be women. What is so difficult to comprehend about this very basic issue?hungama25 wrote:i already cleared this ,say for example if theres a man who thinks hez a woman [gay genetics remember?] and lusts for men then hez gay and if the same man undergoes an operation and becomes SHEMAN even then hez gay, the term used for SHEMAN is HIJRA [in india].
Lesbians do not want to be men.hungama25 wrote:the reason why khomeini did this was to attract other sister branch gays and lesbians who think they are woman/man or vice versa
The reason he issued this fatwah was nothing of the sort; it was at the request of person who did taqlid to him, a Maryam Khatoon Molkata. You can read all about it at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Hatoon_Molkara and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran.
So basically you are saying, "hey, I love the evidence but I choose to ignore it because clearly I know more than the scholars, physicians and fuquhaa'".hungama25 wrote:well i really appreciate your views on this but for me there is no difference between the two,its like two sides of the same coin.. just because gays and lesbians are haram in islam they have found a new method to satisfy their lust = transgender
Transgender people do not change their gender and sex in order to get laid. You have an extremely twisted perception of humanity. Would you grow breasts, live and work as a woman, and have expensive and dangerous surgery to turn your penis inside out just so you could have sex with someone?[/url]
correct and you have to play your role because its allah who choose you to be man/woman.No. Gender is your role and appearance, sex is your body (hormones, physical appearance, chromosomes), sexuality is to whom you are attracted.
This is why the terms transgender (someone whose gender presentation does not match their birth sex) and transsexual (someone whose current sex does not match their birth sex. We conflate the two, but they are not technically the same.
this had nothing to do with his birth sister, if it does then kindly give us some proofs !
there are some bisexuals who become transgender, now does that mean they are like this by birth ? no !
its by choice
it has nothing to do with body sister, a man with female tendency does not have a vagina or breasts, nor a woman will have a pidler ...and your brain starts believing anything that it has been taught in childhood, then let it be ABC 'S or gayTransfolk transition because of body dysphoria, a deep-down mismatch between what your brain believes your body's sex is and what you actually have. It's not something you can pretend at or just do on a whim: there are a battery of examinations that are done to you to ensure you are actually experiencing this and to determine the best course of treatment.
thats really sad sister but we cannot mix our pleasure with allah's commands...a person commiting suicide just because that person is not allowed to change his godgiven gender [ the same gender given by allah who never commits a single mistake ] is totally shockingDenied treatment, many transfolk commit suicide. The unbearable suffering transfolk endure because of dysphoria is no joke and isn't just "kidding around" or made up. It also transcends class: just as many wealthy folk as poor folk suffer it; just as many Americans as, say, Chinese or Pakistani people; just as many born-male people as born-female people do.
thats exactly the point, if its not about getting laid then i dont think a man will turn into a woman or a woman will turn into a man.It's a form of intersexuality, but somehow because you can't physically see the problem, to you it is a game played by people who want to get laid.
Hijras are a whole different issue. They are not representative of transgenderism or of homosexuality, because hijras occupy a third gender, neither male nor female. Third and fourth genders are not uncommon in the world, even in the historical West. In Indonesia, which has the world's largest Muslim population (and I lived there), they have a third gender as well. In Oman, there is a third gender, the mukhannithah ("who is like a woman"). In Bosnia-Hercegovina, Muslim communities have virgjineshtë, which are women who live as men.
In all of these cases, modern medicine and Western social norms have caused some (for example) hijras to identify as transgender or transsexual, others as drag queen, and others are intersexed persons (having mixed sexual markers: male chromosomes but female body, etc.). This may be confusing the issue for you.
Gay men do not think they are women. Gay men are men. This is a very simple issue that you cannot seem to grasp: gay men do not want to be women any more than straight men want to be women. What is so difficult to comprehend about this very basic issue?
you remember the video which is posted in my previous post ? a sheman dressed like woman ?? you did right ? now even hijras dress like woman, walk like woman , talk like woman so how come hijras are different from GAYS/TRANSGENDER ??
and the feeling of getting attracted towards the same sex is called LUST and that is haram in quran sister which i have already said
26:165 “Must you, of all people, [lustfully] approach men,
26:166 And leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are froward folk.
in the same west where i presently live sister, 9 out of 10 woman dress like a man , walk like a man in order to impress their partnerLesbians do not want to be men.
when i have a living example in front of me then how am i suppose to believe you !!
there is no evidence wutsoever to prove that gays are men or gay are not tranny or gays are not hijrasSo basically you are saying, "hey, I love the evidence but I choose to ignore it because clearly I know more than the scholars, physicians and fuquhaa'".
gay = man desiring man
transgender = man undergoing sex change to be with the man
hijras = belonging to no family yet desiring man
and the same with lesbains siter
wow what an excellent explanation !
Transgender people do not change their gender and sex in order to get laid. You have an extremely twisted perception of humanity. Would you grow breasts, live and work as a woman, and have expensive and dangerous surgery to turn your penis inside out just so you could have sex with someone?
why wouldn't they ?? din't you said so many people commit suicide just because the world does not accept them for what they are ???
who wants to waste their life simply ?????? just to be legally accepted in society they undergo such surgery which according to them is legal
Clearly we all really immature when it comes to this topic because we are still having this fight on other forums... Alamut, if you have something to argue bring it here. Don't whine to Admin because people disagree with you. Hungama, don't go on rants on other threads because someone mentions the word homosexuality. We have 14 pages on debate here they can refer to. If you don't feel that you have anything to add to this thread, don't bring it up on others, it's common sense.
For those expecting a universal guidance of MHI on this issue, the article below highlights the general Muslim sentiments on homosexuality. Clearly no guidance is possible under these circumstances.
April 8, 2009
Iraq’s Newly Open Gays Face Scorn and Murder
By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS and TAREQ MAHER
BAGHDAD — The relative freedom of a newly democratic Iraq and the recent improvement in security have allowed a gay subculture to flourish here. The response has been swift and deadly.
In the past two months, the bodies of as many as 25 boys and men suspected of being gay have turned up in the huge Shiite enclave of Sadr City, the police and friends of the dead say. Most have been shot, some multiple times. Several have been found with the word “pervert” in Arabic on notes attached to their bodies, the police said.
“Three of my closest friends have been killed during the past two weeks alone,” said Basim, 23, a hairdresser. “They had been planning to go to a cafe away from Sadr City because we don’t feel safe here, but they killed them on the way. I had planned to go with them, but fortunately I didn’t.”
Basim, who preferred to be called “Basima” — the feminine version of his name — wears his hair long for Iraq. It falls to just below the ear. His ears are pierced, uncommon for Iraqi males. White makeup covers his face, a popular look for gay men in Sadr City who say they prefer light skin.
Though risky, his look is one result of the overall calm here that has allowed Iraqis to enjoy freedoms unthinkable two years ago: A growing number of women walk the streets unveiled, a few even daring to wear dresses above the knee. Families gather in parks for cookouts, and more people have begun to venture out at night.
But that has not changed the reality that Iraq remains religious, conservative — and still violent. The killers, the police say, are not just Shiite death squads, but also tribal and family members shamed by their gay relatives. (And the recent spate of violence has seemed aimed at more openly gay men, rather than homosexuality generally.)
Clerics in Sadr City have urged followers to help root out homosexuality in Iraqi society, and the police have begun their own crackdown on gay men.
“Homosexuality is against the law,” said Lt. Muthana Shaad, at a police station in the Karada district, a neighborhood that has become popular with gay men. “And it’s disgusting.”
For the past four months, he said, officers have been engaged in a “campaign to clean up the streets and get the beggars and homosexuals off them.”
Gay men, he said, can be arrested only if they are seen engaging in sex, but the police try to drive them away. “These people, we make sure they can’t get together in a coffee shop or walk together in the street — we make them break up,” he said.
Gay men and lesbians in Iraq have long been among the targets of both Shiite and Sunni death squads, but their murders have been overshadowed by the hundreds of overall weekly casualties during the height of sectarian violence in 2006 and 2007.
In 2005, the country’s most influential Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, issued a religious decree that said gay men and lesbians should be “punished, in fact, killed.” He added, “The people should be killed in the worst, most severe way of killing.” The language has since been removed from his Web site.
In recent months, groups of gay men have been taking greater chances, gathering in cafes and other public places in Baghdad, Basra, Najaf and other cities. On a recent night in Sadr City, several, their hair parted down the middle, talked as they quietly sipped tea at a garishly lighted cafe, oblivious to the stares of passers-by.
Basim, who would not give his last name out of fear for his safety, said he knew at least 20 young men from Sadr City’s large but hidden gay community who had disappeared during the past two months. He said he had learned later that each was found dead. After three of his friends were killed, he stayed inside his house for a week. Recently he has begun to go out again.
“I can’t stay at home all day,” he said. “I need to see my friends.”
Publicly, the Iraqi police have acknowledged only the deaths of six gay men in the neighborhood. But privately, police officials say the figure is far higher.
The chief of a Sadr City police station, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to speak to reporters, said family members had probably committed most of the Sadr City killings. He played down the role of death squads that had once been associated with the Mahdi Army, the militia that controlled Sadr City until American and Iraqi forces dislodged them last spring.
“Our investigation has found that these incidents are being committed by relatives of the gays — not just because of the militias,” he said. “They are killing them because it is a shame on the family.”
He said families typically refused to cooperate with the investigation or even to claim the bodies. No arrests have been made in the killings.
At the same time, though, clerics associated with Moktada al-Sadr, an anti-American cleric with significant influence in Sadr City, have devoted a portion of Friday Prayer services to inveighing against homosexuality.
“The community should be purified from such delinquent behavior like stealing, lying and the effeminacy phenomenon among men,” Sheik Jassem al-Mutairi said during his sermon last Friday. Homosexuality, he said, was “far from manhood and honesty.”
Abu Muhaned al-Diraji, a Sadrist official in Sadr City, said the clerics were in no way encouraging people to kill gay men.
“All we are doing is giving advice to people to take care of their sons,” Mr. Diraji said. He acknowledged, however, that some of the killing had been committed by members of “special groups,” or death squads.
“In general, it is the families that are killing the gay son, but I know that there are gunmen involved in this, too,” he said. “But we disavow anybody committing this kind of crime and we encourage the people to follow the law.”
In addition to the killings, a Sadr City cafe frequented by gay men recently burned down under mysterious circumstances.
Some young gay men in Sadr City have become nihilistic about the ever present threat.
“I don’t care about the militias anymore, because they’re going to kill me anyway — today, tomorrow or the day after,” said a man named Sa’ad, who has been taking estrogen and has developed small breasts. “I hate my community and my relatives. If they had their way, the result would be one gunshot.”
Reporting was contributed by Sam Dagher, Rod Nordland, Steven Lee Myers, Anwar J. Ali, Riyadh Mohammed and Campbell Robertson.
April 8, 2009
Iraq’s Newly Open Gays Face Scorn and Murder
By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS and TAREQ MAHER
BAGHDAD — The relative freedom of a newly democratic Iraq and the recent improvement in security have allowed a gay subculture to flourish here. The response has been swift and deadly.
In the past two months, the bodies of as many as 25 boys and men suspected of being gay have turned up in the huge Shiite enclave of Sadr City, the police and friends of the dead say. Most have been shot, some multiple times. Several have been found with the word “pervert” in Arabic on notes attached to their bodies, the police said.
“Three of my closest friends have been killed during the past two weeks alone,” said Basim, 23, a hairdresser. “They had been planning to go to a cafe away from Sadr City because we don’t feel safe here, but they killed them on the way. I had planned to go with them, but fortunately I didn’t.”
Basim, who preferred to be called “Basima” — the feminine version of his name — wears his hair long for Iraq. It falls to just below the ear. His ears are pierced, uncommon for Iraqi males. White makeup covers his face, a popular look for gay men in Sadr City who say they prefer light skin.
Though risky, his look is one result of the overall calm here that has allowed Iraqis to enjoy freedoms unthinkable two years ago: A growing number of women walk the streets unveiled, a few even daring to wear dresses above the knee. Families gather in parks for cookouts, and more people have begun to venture out at night.
But that has not changed the reality that Iraq remains religious, conservative — and still violent. The killers, the police say, are not just Shiite death squads, but also tribal and family members shamed by their gay relatives. (And the recent spate of violence has seemed aimed at more openly gay men, rather than homosexuality generally.)
Clerics in Sadr City have urged followers to help root out homosexuality in Iraqi society, and the police have begun their own crackdown on gay men.
“Homosexuality is against the law,” said Lt. Muthana Shaad, at a police station in the Karada district, a neighborhood that has become popular with gay men. “And it’s disgusting.”
For the past four months, he said, officers have been engaged in a “campaign to clean up the streets and get the beggars and homosexuals off them.”
Gay men, he said, can be arrested only if they are seen engaging in sex, but the police try to drive them away. “These people, we make sure they can’t get together in a coffee shop or walk together in the street — we make them break up,” he said.
Gay men and lesbians in Iraq have long been among the targets of both Shiite and Sunni death squads, but their murders have been overshadowed by the hundreds of overall weekly casualties during the height of sectarian violence in 2006 and 2007.
In 2005, the country’s most influential Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, issued a religious decree that said gay men and lesbians should be “punished, in fact, killed.” He added, “The people should be killed in the worst, most severe way of killing.” The language has since been removed from his Web site.
In recent months, groups of gay men have been taking greater chances, gathering in cafes and other public places in Baghdad, Basra, Najaf and other cities. On a recent night in Sadr City, several, their hair parted down the middle, talked as they quietly sipped tea at a garishly lighted cafe, oblivious to the stares of passers-by.
Basim, who would not give his last name out of fear for his safety, said he knew at least 20 young men from Sadr City’s large but hidden gay community who had disappeared during the past two months. He said he had learned later that each was found dead. After three of his friends were killed, he stayed inside his house for a week. Recently he has begun to go out again.
“I can’t stay at home all day,” he said. “I need to see my friends.”
Publicly, the Iraqi police have acknowledged only the deaths of six gay men in the neighborhood. But privately, police officials say the figure is far higher.
The chief of a Sadr City police station, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to speak to reporters, said family members had probably committed most of the Sadr City killings. He played down the role of death squads that had once been associated with the Mahdi Army, the militia that controlled Sadr City until American and Iraqi forces dislodged them last spring.
“Our investigation has found that these incidents are being committed by relatives of the gays — not just because of the militias,” he said. “They are killing them because it is a shame on the family.”
He said families typically refused to cooperate with the investigation or even to claim the bodies. No arrests have been made in the killings.
At the same time, though, clerics associated with Moktada al-Sadr, an anti-American cleric with significant influence in Sadr City, have devoted a portion of Friday Prayer services to inveighing against homosexuality.
“The community should be purified from such delinquent behavior like stealing, lying and the effeminacy phenomenon among men,” Sheik Jassem al-Mutairi said during his sermon last Friday. Homosexuality, he said, was “far from manhood and honesty.”
Abu Muhaned al-Diraji, a Sadrist official in Sadr City, said the clerics were in no way encouraging people to kill gay men.
“All we are doing is giving advice to people to take care of their sons,” Mr. Diraji said. He acknowledged, however, that some of the killing had been committed by members of “special groups,” or death squads.
“In general, it is the families that are killing the gay son, but I know that there are gunmen involved in this, too,” he said. “But we disavow anybody committing this kind of crime and we encourage the people to follow the law.”
In addition to the killings, a Sadr City cafe frequented by gay men recently burned down under mysterious circumstances.
Some young gay men in Sadr City have become nihilistic about the ever present threat.
“I don’t care about the militias anymore, because they’re going to kill me anyway — today, tomorrow or the day after,” said a man named Sa’ad, who has been taking estrogen and has developed small breasts. “I hate my community and my relatives. If they had their way, the result would be one gunshot.”
Reporting was contributed by Sam Dagher, Rod Nordland, Steven Lee Myers, Anwar J. Ali, Riyadh Mohammed and Campbell Robertson.
it is prohibited in bible as well
leviticus - 22 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. "
however iam against all this killing and stuff because our job is to punish them to a certain extent but if they still dont wanna change then we should leave them to allah[swt]
we have no right to kill anybody
leviticus - 22 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. "
however iam against all this killing and stuff because our job is to punish them to a certain extent but if they still dont wanna change then we should leave them to allah[swt]
we have no right to kill anybody
the problem is that sexual orientation refers to both the sexual and emotional attraction. To say being a homosexual is wrong is to say to love someone of the same sex is wrong, which the Quran DOES NOT mention. In fact, Islam is about having love for one another. And other's judging someone for whom they love is completely wrong.
the problem is that sexual orientation refers to both the sexual and emotional attraction. To say being a homosexual is wrong is to say to love someone of the same sex is wrong, which the Quran DOES NOT mention. In fact, Islam is about having love for one another. And other's judging someone for whom they love is completely wrong.
ofcourse islam is about love but that love is brotherly love [bhaichara] and not lusting for same sex...theres a difference
it's not lust though... it's the same love we have for a woman... if you lust after women, then I can understand where you're coming from, but there's an emotional investment, and that's the aspect that some people find hard to accept. And that's why I've felt the Quran was referring to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts, because that is the situation where men are consciously forsaking their wives for the lust of a man. But it's the emotional affection that separates homosexuality from fetishes.
As for the 'moral destruction' homosexuals apparently cause. Perhaps there are other variables to consider, like the fact that homosexuals have people judging them telling them they're already sinning and are going to be punished, it's very easy for people to lash out in destructive acts. At the same time, there are many homosexuals who live a very ethical life.
And it is common knowledge that the Quran is bound by time, so perhaps we are looking at these passages that refer to a non-specific group and assuming those passages are referring to this current situation.
Regardless of the outcome of this debate, the persecution of the gay community is very counter-intuitive with Islam and is quite comparable to what we all agree as unethical punishment of women in other nations.
As for the 'moral destruction' homosexuals apparently cause. Perhaps there are other variables to consider, like the fact that homosexuals have people judging them telling them they're already sinning and are going to be punished, it's very easy for people to lash out in destructive acts. At the same time, there are many homosexuals who live a very ethical life.
And it is common knowledge that the Quran is bound by time, so perhaps we are looking at these passages that refer to a non-specific group and assuming those passages are referring to this current situation.
Regardless of the outcome of this debate, the persecution of the gay community is very counter-intuitive with Islam and is quite comparable to what we all agree as unethical punishment of women in other nations.
One of the examples often cited when dealing with transfolk are the ahaadiith where Muhammad speaks out against mu7annithuuna "womenly men". It is widely (mis)used to accuse transfolk as evil or bad. The fuquhaa' have pointed out that the ahaadiith discuss mu7annithuuna who violated the privacy of women by reporting to men what they looked like naked rather than a general detestation of men who don't find women attractive. The condemnation was of bad behaviour, not of being mu7annithuuna.
Sometimes what appears to be clear-cut turn out not to be.
Sometimes what appears to be clear-cut turn out not to be.
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From_Alamut
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Homosexuality is traditionally deemed forbidden by Islamic law. The Qur'an, the central text of Islam believed by Muslims to be the revelation of God, is explicit in its condemnation of homosexuality. In Holy Quran it mentions in some of Suras that it is forbidding for believers to have sexuality from back, which is only belong to the animals. The Qur'an proclaims Islam as the "religion of nature," and sanctifies and encourages sexual intercourse within marriages only. Specific verses condemning homosexuality include:
“And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify (themselves). So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind. And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty.” 7:80-7:84 [Translated by Shakir]
“The people of Lut gave the lie to the messengers. When their brother Lut said to them: Will you not guard (against evil)? Surely I am a faithful messenger to you; Therefore guard against (the punishment of) God and obey me: And I do not ask you any reward for it; my reward is only with the Lord of the worlds; What! do you come to the males from among the creatures And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits. They said: If you desist not, O Lut! you shall surely be of those who are expelled. He said: Surely I am of those who utterly abhor your actions. My Lord! deliver me and my followers from what they do. So We delivered him and his followers all, Except an old woman, among those who remained behind. Then We utterly destroyed the others. And We rained down upon them a rain, and evil was the rain on those warned. Most surely there is a sign in this, but most of them do not believe. And most surely your Lord is the Mighty, the Merciful.” [Translated by Shakir] 26:160
“And (We sent) Lut, when he said to his people: What! do you commit indecency while you see? What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly. But the answer of his people was no other except that they said: Turn out Lut's followers from your town; surely they are a people who would keep pure! But We delivered him and his followers except his wife; We ordained her to be of those who remained behind. And We rained on them a rain, and evil was the rain of those who had been warned.” [Translated by Shakir] 27:54-58
“And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: Most surely you are guilty of an indecency which none of the nations has ever done before you; What! do you come to the males and commit robbery on the highway, and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies? But nothing was the answer of his people except that they said: Bring on us God's punishment, if you are one of the truthful. He said: My Lord! help me against the mischievous people.” [Translated by Shakir] 29:28-30
“And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.” [Translated by Shakir] 4:15-16
Also, there are some Hadith of our Beloved Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him and is progeny)
It was narrated by Jaabir "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Loot.'"
It was narrated that Ibn Abbaas said: “The Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "... cursed is the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does the action of the people of Loot."
It was narrated that Ibn Abbaas said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.'"
Another Hadith narrative reports Prophet Muhammad as having said, "No man should look at the private parts of another man, and no woman should look at the private parts of another woman, and no two men sleep [in bed] under one cover."
One narrative, attributed as part of Prophet Muhammad's farewell speech, says, "Whoever has intercourse with a woman and penetrates her rectum, or with a man, or with a boy, will appear on the Last Day stinking worse than a corpse; people will find him unbearable until he enters hell fire, and God will cancel all his good deeds."
Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam
“And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people. And the answer of his people was no other than that they said: Turn them out of your town, surely they are a people who seek to purify (themselves). So We delivered him and his followers, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind. And We rained upon them a rain; consider then what was the end of the guilty.” 7:80-7:84 [Translated by Shakir]
“The people of Lut gave the lie to the messengers. When their brother Lut said to them: Will you not guard (against evil)? Surely I am a faithful messenger to you; Therefore guard against (the punishment of) God and obey me: And I do not ask you any reward for it; my reward is only with the Lord of the worlds; What! do you come to the males from among the creatures And leave what your Lord has created for you of your wives? Nay, you are a people exceeding limits. They said: If you desist not, O Lut! you shall surely be of those who are expelled. He said: Surely I am of those who utterly abhor your actions. My Lord! deliver me and my followers from what they do. So We delivered him and his followers all, Except an old woman, among those who remained behind. Then We utterly destroyed the others. And We rained down upon them a rain, and evil was the rain on those warned. Most surely there is a sign in this, but most of them do not believe. And most surely your Lord is the Mighty, the Merciful.” [Translated by Shakir] 26:160
“And (We sent) Lut, when he said to his people: What! do you commit indecency while you see? What! do you indeed approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are a people who act ignorantly. But the answer of his people was no other except that they said: Turn out Lut's followers from your town; surely they are a people who would keep pure! But We delivered him and his followers except his wife; We ordained her to be of those who remained behind. And We rained on them a rain, and evil was the rain of those who had been warned.” [Translated by Shakir] 27:54-58
“And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: Most surely you are guilty of an indecency which none of the nations has ever done before you; What! do you come to the males and commit robbery on the highway, and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies? But nothing was the answer of his people except that they said: Bring on us God's punishment, if you are one of the truthful. He said: My Lord! help me against the mischievous people.” [Translated by Shakir] 29:28-30
“And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.” [Translated by Shakir] 4:15-16
Also, there are some Hadith of our Beloved Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him and is progeny)
It was narrated by Jaabir "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Loot.'"
It was narrated that Ibn Abbaas said: “The Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "... cursed is the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does the action of the people of Loot."
It was narrated that Ibn Abbaas said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 'Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.'"
Another Hadith narrative reports Prophet Muhammad as having said, "No man should look at the private parts of another man, and no woman should look at the private parts of another woman, and no two men sleep [in bed] under one cover."
One narrative, attributed as part of Prophet Muhammad's farewell speech, says, "Whoever has intercourse with a woman and penetrates her rectum, or with a man, or with a boy, will appear on the Last Day stinking worse than a corpse; people will find him unbearable until he enters hell fire, and God will cancel all his good deeds."
Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam
brother ALAMUT ,may peace and blessings of allah[swt] be upon you and your family
brother the aayats which you mentioned in your above posts had been posted about 100 times in this topic but yet gays and lesbians simply deny these aayats by saying quran is time bound , in short they need some excuse or the other to stay that way...there is a particular aayat in holy quran where allah[swt] says :
7:176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.
our job is done here brother alamut, allah[swt] commanded us to tell gays and lesbians the story[story of lut] so that they may ponder but there are some on this forum whose parable is that of a dog and as there is a saying
"kutte ki dum tedhi ki tedhi "
brother the aayats which you mentioned in your above posts had been posted about 100 times in this topic but yet gays and lesbians simply deny these aayats by saying quran is time bound , in short they need some excuse or the other to stay that way...there is a particular aayat in holy quran where allah[swt] says :
7:176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.
our job is done here brother alamut, allah[swt] commanded us to tell gays and lesbians the story[story of lut] so that they may ponder but there are some on this forum whose parable is that of a dog and as there is a saying
"kutte ki dum tedhi ki tedhi "
lemme put it this way, a man loves another man...they both love each other and decided to get married, now sex is a part of marriage isnt it ?? that sex my friend is haramit's not lust though... it's the same love we have for a woman... if you lust after women, then I can understand where you're coming from, but there's an emotional investment, and that's the aspect that some people find hard to accept. And that's why I've felt the Quran was referring to heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts, because that is the situation where men are consciously forsaking their wives for the lust of a man. But it's the emotional affection that separates homosexuality from fetishes.
cant you get this simple point ????
and regarding emotions,passion,love etc etc tell me this
do you love you wife just as you love you mother ??
no !!!!
the love that you have for your mother is motherly love, now you dont shower motherly love on you wife !!!
cant you get this simple point ??
ethical life ????????????As for the 'moral destruction' homosexuals apparently cause. Perhaps there are other variables to consider, like the fact that homosexuals have people judging them telling them they're already sinning and are going to be punished, it's very easy for people to lash out in destructive acts. At the same time, there are many homosexuals who live a very ethical life.
kindly tell me what ethics do they follow ?
ha ha ha....brother you are soooo dumbAnd it is common knowledge that the Quran is bound by time, so perhaps we are looking at these passages that refer to a non-specific group and assuming those passages are referring to this current situation.
quran is the book for MANKIND and that includes each and every single human being, including our imam e zaman
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to MANKIND, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
4:133 If it were His will, He could destroy you, o MANKIND, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.
ALLAH IS WISE MY BROTHER ...
4:165 Messenger. who gave good news as well as warning, that MANKIND, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
saying quran is timebound is like saying prophet of islam was a prophet for people in those time and now he'z not our prophet
but as allah[swt] is all wise he make sure that rasool[saw] shouldnt be blamed on judgement day because he fulfilled his job and the witness was almighty allah[swt] himself
so now you compare gays with womanRegardless of the outcome of this debate, the persecution of the gay community is very counter-intuitive with Islam and is quite comparable to what we all agree as unethical punishment of women in other nations.
my dear cunning brother woman and man have equal rights in islam , the have same rights in marriage too
a woman in islam is called husband's clothes [sharam/izzat] if there are no clothes then there is no sharam/izzat
hope i answered your question
Hungama, I thought you learned some maturity. I made the effort to understand your rationale, but you fail to learn the argument being presented to you because you refuse to leave your bubble and follow very valid logic arguments.
If you don't understand what it ACTUALLY means to be a homosexual, you can hardly make claims that it is wrong. Your reasoning for why homosexuality is 'wrong' from a logical standpoint seems to cater to heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts, with more of a 'why not' attitude. And I can agree that the perspective you preach is wrong, however, that is NOT the homosexual perspective.
There is an aspect of emotional love, which as I said is the same you and I would have with a woman we love, and to tie that feeling with lust simply because it is what homosexuals experience is wrong and it demeans the notion of finding true love.
If you don't understand what it ACTUALLY means to be a homosexual, you can hardly make claims that it is wrong. Your reasoning for why homosexuality is 'wrong' from a logical standpoint seems to cater to heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts, with more of a 'why not' attitude. And I can agree that the perspective you preach is wrong, however, that is NOT the homosexual perspective.
There is an aspect of emotional love, which as I said is the same you and I would have with a woman we love, and to tie that feeling with lust simply because it is what homosexuals experience is wrong and it demeans the notion of finding true love.