Losing Faith in Ismailism, Help?

[Judith3]

I am a 'born into the faith' Ismaili, and have served many years in various Jamati Institutions, including serving as Mukhiani and an REC teacher, and I try to attend Jamat Khana regularly.

I had always been very proud about being Ismaili, and felt that I understood the doctrines and basic foundations of the faith well enough to make my own decision to practice it. I had done a good amount of research into the history of Ismailism before and was fairly sound in my knowledge of Ismailism and my choice to continue its practice.

Recently, however, I have been reading and researching outside of the Ismaili "bubble" and have realized that some notions of Ismailism do not sit well with me. I am concerned that because I don't agree with some of the fundamental "religious" - as opposed to "spiritual" - aspects of the faith, that I shouldn't be practicing it.

For example, I believe that sex is completely natural and should not be condemned, especially in a time where research has proven how essential to the health sex is, AND birth control of various kinds are available. Because of this, I think homosexual love is perfectly natural as well.

Also, I believe that the Imam serves as an anchor for our love. Love is the highest energy. And as such, when our energy overflows (as at a deedar) we are able to connect spiritually connect with the Higher Energy. I do not believe the Imam is Allah, or a manifestation of Allah, or Allah's representative on earth (which would suggest Allah has human qualities, and would thus reduce Allah to an entity such as that of a human). I believe that the Imam has the power to love so much, that he serves as an anchor for our love, and thus can almost "coax" his murids to taste Enlightenment (which for me is defined as fanaa-fi-allah). So I believe that any one of us murids, or non-Ismailis, can reach the status of the Imam of the Time.

I hope that wasn't too much to swallow. My point is, I have, at times, trouble consolidating my beliefs - which I find to be fundamentally true - with beliefs that are said to be Ismaili beliefs.

I wish the Imam were more accessible for spiritual guidance, not ITREB, not the Pirs, and not the elders of the Jamat.

I am drifting, and I employ my brothers and sisters here to convince me that Ismailism continues to be the right faith for me.

Please feel free to ask me any questions.

Thank you.

[Judith3]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.

You are suggesting the God exists outside yourself and the conscious mind is a different entity than God is. But there is no way for us as humans, with what limited abilities we possess, to step out of our subjective realities and into an objective one. Until and unless there is a way to do this, for multiple subjective realities to step into one uniform objective reality, we are confined to what we believe.

You believe in a God that very much fits certain qualities. However, I am not talking about God (I specifically excluded "spiritual" notions from my musings). I am talking about the religion we practice.

[a1337]

Judith, I admire your willingness to research beyond our bubble of information. Personally, I feel no matter what other people on this forum may tell you, questioning our faith and beliefs is a good thing. We have this intellect and to waste it is a tragedy.

I actually completely agree with the points you made, I've been on another thread trying to fight for homosexual rights and I'll just leave it at that so hungama doesn't start debating it here.

You're also right about MHI not being the manifestation of Allah, he is a spiritual guide and a decedent of Prophet Muhammad (salwaat).

Your spiritual beliefs are yours alone, and no one can tell you what you believe is wrong. And your association with Ismailism is a result of you believing that this path is the most efficient and the best way for you to achieve inner enlightenment.

I disagree with gori-nagri that God is rigid considering our experience of God is based solely on our beliefs and our perception.

So on that note, I'm not going to try to talk you into sticking with Ismailis because you have to follow what you believe, and whatever decision you make, I hope you're staying true to your own faith.

[hungama25]

For example, I believe that sex is completely natural and should not be condemned, especially in a time where research has proven how essential to the health sex is, AND birth control of various kinds are available. Because of this, I think homosexual love is perfectly natural as well.

sister changing i.d's wont help !
sexual intercourse is ofcourse natural, but having sex with same gender is haram as mentioned in quran....moving your hands,legs,eyes,body is natural but can you pump blood from your heart to toe by yourself ??

WHO DOES THAT ???

allah!!!

similarly it is allah who makes you man or woman...hez the one who gives you an identity = GENDER [man/woman]

Also, I believe that the Imam serves as an anchor for our love. Love is the highest energy. And as such, when our energy overflows (as at a deedar) we are able to connect spiritually connect with the Higher Energy. I do not believe the Imam is Allah, or a manifestation of Allah, or Allah's representative on earth (which would suggest Allah has human qualities, and would thus reduce Allah to an entity such as that of a human).

sister if you ask me i would say our imam e zaman is the manifestation of gods grace

I believe that the Imam has the power to love so much, that he serves as an anchor for our love, and thus can almost "coax" his murids to taste Enlightenment (which for me is defined as fanaa-fi-allah). So I believe that any one of us murids, or non-Ismailis, can reach the status of the Imam of the Time.

yes why not !!!
when a person reaches marifat then he starts seeing things just like imam e zaman does

but the question is how ???? you get what iam saying ???

[TheMaw]

I agree with what you have said, Judith. I don't think it takes you outside Ismailism.

(Also, don't bother with hungama, he doesn't actually listen to what you say.)

[Judith3]

Your spiritual beliefs are yours alone, and no one can tell you what you believe is wrong. And your association with Ismailism is a result of you believing that this path is the most efficient and the best way for you to achieve inner enlightenment.

Thank you. I agree with you wholeheartedly, but here is where my dilemma lies. I want Ismailism to be the most efficient path and best way to achieve inner enlightenment, and what I suppose I am seeking is a validation of this assertion...

sister changing i.d's wont help !
sexual intercourse is ofcourse natural, but having sex with same gender is haram as mentioned in quran....moving your hands,legs,eyes,body is natural but can you pump blood from your heart to toe by yourself ??

WHO DOES THAT ???

allah!!!

similarly it is allah who makes you man or woman...hez the one who gives you an identity = GENDER [man/woman]

I'm afraid I don't understand some key points here. What do you mean by changing "i.d"s?

Secondly, the Quran itself is flawed because it has been recorded repeatedly over time by man. The Imam himself says that the Quran was perfect for the time and circumstance in which it was revealed. However, for present times, parts can be disregarded or altered in meaning so that an esoteric universal and timeless truth can be complied with, and not exoteric, or surface words followed. Therefore, Mowla has yet to give his word that homosexuality is in fact haram in Ismailism and thus it is left open to interpretation.

Also, I understand Allah's infinite grace, and that I am made into the form that I am in with His Will. But what has this to do with the topic about which we are speaking? I am confused. What has this to do with the esoteric body, the soul, that is genderless?

I agree with what you have said, Judith. I don't think it takes you outside Ismailism.

I would love to hear more. How does it not? The reasoning behind your assertion is what I am searching for.


Piya-ki-Gori:

I feel it is necessary to leave at the door your Christian dogma for this conversation to continue peaceably and logically. All "Jesus-advertising" and "Karim-bashing" aside, I have a couple of questions and answers for you.

I am curious to know what reasons turned you away from Ismailism to Christianity. From my knowledge it seems you have misunderstood both the teachings of Christ, and the teachings of the Imams. No where in the entire history of Ismailism, do any of the Imams state that they are in any way a manifestation of God.

I am also curious to know where you are getting your information about the Aga Khan and present-day Ismailis from. What sources are you citing from? I should like to warn you to check for accredited media sources.

And lastly, in answer to your question of what my beliefs are founded upon. Well here it is:

Perhaps you'll agree with me that the entire universe functions with, through, and in sync with an undercurrent of energy. This energy is what some call God, or Allah, or Yahweh, or Nirvana, or Tantra, or the Great Spirit. It is the vibration that runs through all of creation, that allows it to exist, that gives birth and takes life, that is ever-changing, omniscient, omnipresent, through space and time.

If you believe this to be true, how might one reduce such a powerful force to the qualities innately human like "justice" or "mercy" or an entity that seeks praise and give rewards or brings damnation? God or Allah is not an enormous bearded man-shaped thing sitting upon a throne in heaven urging you to bow to him. There is no he-she. There is no heaven in which God exists. No, heaven exists withIN god. Hell, too, exists withIN God. For nothing can exist without God.

This is the grounds upon which every one of my beliefs is based. Why can't homosexuality be banned, logically? Because God is genderless, sexless, and is energy. Creation energy. The soul, as part of the whole, a hisa of God, then is genderless. And thus how can the physical contact of two men or two women be haram? It is the same creation energy. The same energy that occurs between a man and a woman. Marriage is a physical law. Words on paper. Marriage is meaningless in a spiritual context.

This is how I come to the conclusions I do. I set up a platform and build ideas upon it and throw more ideas against it. The ideas that hold up are the ones that are valid. Everything that falls is irrelevant.

I hope this answers your question, if not, feel free to ask me questions. [/i]

[hungama25]

I'm afraid I don't understand some key points here. What do you mean by changing "i.d"s?

the maw @ judith
khair i aint worried because my job is to put my point of view

so sister you can create as many i.ds as you want

Secondly, the Quran itself is flawed because it has been recorded repeatedly over time by man. The Imam himself says that the Quran was perfect for the time and circumstance in which it was revealed. However, for present times, parts can be disregarded or altered in meaning so that an esoteric universal and timeless truth can be complied with, and not exoteric, or surface words followed. Therefore, Mowla has yet to give his word that homosexuality is in fact haram in Ismailism and thus it is left open to interpretation.

as i repeated myself earlier sister its not quran its the interpretation, different people have different interpretation

for you homosex is natural where as for me homosex is haram

and most of the time our imam gave us the hidayat by saying that we have nothing to do with western culture but i guess you dont think western culture is responsible for gays and lesbians because for you homosex is natural

some say quran is time bound or imam said its time bound, if the current imam said so then kindly prove it !!!!

Also, I understand Allah's infinite grace, and that I am made into the form that I am in with His Will. But what has this to do with the topic about which we are speaking? I am confused. What has this to do with the esoteric body, the soul, that is genderless?

thats very simple sister , who gave you that soul ?:lol:

allah did !!!

who created you in certain shape ???

allah did !!!

who chose you to be a woman ???

allah did !!!

so when it is almighty who gave you life,body and soul do you think he can commit a mistake ??

and this is what i told in all my posts that a human being can commit a mistake, a prophet[as] can commit a mistake, an imam[as] can commit a mistake .....but allah[swt] cant !

always remember that he'z the creator and not created

[salmanali786]

Judith can you write you Questions in simple format... I may be able to help!

[salmanali786]

"For example, I believe that sex is completely natural and should not be condemned, especially in a time where research has proven how essential to the health sex is, AND birth control of various kinds are available. Because of this, I think homosexual love is perfectly natural as well"


RESEARCH???? You know these freeks change their words every 2-3 years? and most of these researchers are sponsored/paid by big commercial businesses....Like why havent they brought up complete research on PORK... Quran Bible ... everywhere it states that its worst thing to eat... but it has a great commercial value hence RESEARCHERS are not open yet!!....So please let those researches take a deep breath!... I would rather read and understand Quran and Ginan thats permenant thn RESEARCHERS!!...

[Admin]

What's the point of continuing this discussion in the wrong thread and mixing issues within one thread.

And what's the point of all of you posting the same information and the same sentences repackaged a zillion times?

Admin.