Farman on Homosexuality?

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:35 pm

Except men don't satisfy me, sir. Women do. I believe Sappho said it best several thousand years ago to a woman she was in love with

now thats your choice my dear sister and this is what exactly iam trying to prove !!

our tariqah/madhab never forced you to be a lesbian, this is what you chose to be so my dear sister as i said earlier do whatever you wanna do but do not refer yourself as ISMAILI GAY / ISMAILI LESBIAN , my imam never forced you to be gay it was your own choice so please do not refer yourself as ISMAILI

thank you

TheMaw · Post by **TheMaw** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:35 pm

hungama25 wrote:now thats your choice my dear sister and this is what exactly iam trying to prove !!

our tariqah/madhab never forced you to be a lesbian, this is what you chose to be so my dear sister as i said earlier do whatever you wanna do but do not refer yourself as ISMAILI GAY / ISMAILI LESBIAN , my imam never forced you to be gay it was your own choice so please do not refer yourself as ISMAILI

thank you

How is saying that the Imam didn't make me gay proving anything?

And no, I will refer to myself as Ismaili because I am Ismaili.

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:22 pm

And no, I will refer to myself as Ismaili because I am Ismaili.

ofcourse you are !!
but dont forget that you are an ismaili muslimah and not ismaili lesbian

How is saying that the Imam didn't make me gay proving anything?

when you call yourself ismaili lesbian you are showing the whole world[ atleast people who are reading your posts] that our holy imam has given you the permission to call yourself as ismaili lesbian , have you ever seen anybody referring to a person as ismaili thief ??

if you are a lesbian , fine !!! you are a lesbian , thats it ! you are not ismaili lesbian because islam has no place for lesbians or homosexuals

TheMaw · Post by **TheMaw** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:10 pm

hungama25 wrote:have you ever seen anybody referring to a person as ismaili thief ??

So far you've described me as: a person of indeterminate sex; an animal; an alien; and now, a criminal.

Do you think perhaps you could stop dehumanising me?

hungama25 wrote:if you are a lesbian , fine !!! you are a lesbian , thats it ! you are not ismaili lesbian because islam has no place for lesbians or homosexuals

Says you. The Imam has made no such pronouncement and the allegedly authoritative reading of the Qur'an as discussing homosexuality has been challenged by many scholars.

The current state of queerness in the faith is: there is no comment from the Imam-e Zamaan.

I am a Muslimah, I am an Ismaili, and I am a lesbian. I don't have to answer to your definitions of any of those terms, and while you treat me like a subhuman I certainly won't answer to them.

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:13 am

To answer your question about an ismaili thief, Salim Damji!

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:20 pm

To answer your question about an ismaili thief, Salim Damji!

brother

if you see a pregnant lady in our jamat will you call her PREGNANT ISMAILI ??????

the term is PREGNANT WOMAN, and her pregnancy has nothing to do with ismailism

a human being is responsible for everything he/she does then no matter if he/she's a theif,terrorist,gay or rapist etc etc.

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:52 pm

I just answered your question, if you're trying to prove a point you failed. You have yet to show any evidence from the Quran that the desire for the same sex (, which is the defination of being homosexual) is wrong. All your quotes refer to sodomy. Also, you still have yet to justify that homosexuality is a conscious decision and that people can be 'converted from homosexuality.'

Here's a hypothetical for you; let's say that being a heterosexual is against islam. Would you can could you become gay?

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:24 pm

I just answered your question, if you're trying to prove a point you failed. You have yet to show any evidence from the Quran that the desire for the same sex (, which is the defination of being homosexual) is wrong. All your quotes refer to sodomy. Also, you still have yet to justify that homosexuality is a conscious decision and that people can be 'converted from homosexuality.'

kindly interpret the following aayat in your own way please !!

4:16 (Y. Ali) If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

how do gays have sex ???

what is sodomy ?? kindly explain

dude seriously how old are you ??

Here's a hypothetical for you; let's say that being a heterosexual is against islam. Would you can could you become gay?

ahhh when nothing works use the last move

...nice try buddy but as i said earlier quran talks about marriage = man and woman , allah created adam and eve and not steve

, allah talk about when the namaz/dua is makrooh [when you have sex and come to jk without cleaning yourself etc etc]

so my dear friend dont try to run away from the topic , you are stuck in your own plot

"ISMAILISM DOES NOT ALLOW HOMOSEX, HOMOSEX MARRIAGE OR THOSE WHO CALL THEMSELVES ISMAILI HOMO"

our religion is not responsible for such un-islamic acts, its by choice, people choose what they wanna be !!

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:40 pm

i can ask you the same question, you use emoticons like a teenage girl on crack, you can barely get through a sentence without using text shorthand. Do you just fail at communicating or are you just immature?

What you, The terrorist, fail to understand is that being a homosexual means you have the DESIRE for the same sex. This does not translate to people constantly engaging in sexual activity. And you missed the point of my hypothetical, it was proof that your sexual orientation ISN'T a conscious decision. So, I know you're running out of ways to argue so you're trying to judge me based on my age. For your information, heterosexual couples also engage in sodomy, so your passages aren't strictly bound by sexual orientation, they are still free to be gay. Also, gays can also engage in fellatio as Qifar argued. You're running out of reasons to spread hate so you're trying to make personal attacks, you're like a pre-pubescent kid. Why don't you respond when your voice cracks.

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:30 pm

while i am not homosexual i firmly stand by a1337 and themaw to exist free of discrimination or persecution for their sexual preferences. in a faith that welcomes pluralism i cannot see any reason why they cannot call themselves homosexual ismailis shy of ingorance and fear. Why can we all not just get along and respect each other's fundamental humans rights?

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:10 pm

I suppose you'll accuse Qifar of being the 'messiah of gays' as well since we're both heterosexuals who believe homosexuals should be able to live without discrimination or fear.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:29 pm

qifar wrote:while i am not homosexual i firmly stand by a1337 and themaw to exist free of discrimination or persecution for their sexual preferences. in a faith that welcomes pluralism i cannot see any reason why they cannot call themselves homosexual ismailis shy of ingorance and fear. Why can we all not just get along and respect each other's fundamental humans rights?

I have no issues with anyone saying that or practicing their sexuality - as you bring up pluralism - i want to point out that it goes both ways..just as you/me/they can have their view..so can hungama..and we have to live with it.
My argument isn't against whether the homosexuality exists or not..I know it does...it is whether we can force a religion to change it's doctrines...especially Ismailism where WE the followers are bound to the will of the IMAM.

Shams

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:00 am

But with Hungama, the debate has shifted to whether we can allow homosexuals to live amongst us, and while he is entitled to believe homosexuality is wrong, he's taking it to the point where he refuses to accept them as ismailis or people for that matter.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:38 am

a1337 wrote:But with Hungama, the debate has shifted to whether we can allow homosexuals to live amongst us, and while he is entitled to believe homosexuality is wrong, he's taking it to the point where he refuses to accept them as ismailis or people for that matter.

Well the one thing i would tell him is to look at Christ as an example -

"Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone."

Hungama, if you view this as a sin against Allah - let Allah decide..not us...Who are we to decide? our job is to strive to be the best we can....we need to have acceptance - we have so many other problems that we can be focusing our energies in that are so much more important - ever thought of waging a campaign against smoking or alcohol..esp by our Youth in the West - as now we are in a "permissive" society, where anything goes..(paraphrasing Hazar Imam)..now that is an area where we have clear farmans from Hazar Imam that it is a bad habit....or combating poverty or domestic violence or even starting a successful cooperative society whereby the Ismailies of a city or a state collaborate on helping each other in business matters or real estate? or even educational matters...yet we want to argue about who does what in the bedroom......some of our brethren don't even have the privilege of a bedroom..let's get each one of us a bedroom..then we can worry about what goes in there? what do you say eh?

Shams

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:38 pm

i can ask you the same question, you use emoticons like a teenage girl on crack, you can barely get through a sentence without using text shorthand. Do you just fail at communicating or are you just immature?

ahhh, well if you think iam immature then ill simply take this as a compliment because when an immature like me can shut messiahs like you then i am sure you gonna pee when you have an arguement with our imam-e-zaman when he'll proclaim homosexuality as haram in one of his firmans

tell me this if what i said happens in future[ imam saying gays are haram] what will you do ??

go against imam ??? or leave this madhab ??

What you, The terrorist, fail to understand is that being a homosexual means you have the DESIRE for the same sex. This does not translate to people constantly engaging in sexual activity.

my brother you cannot go against the law of nature ...got it ??? have you seen the king of the jungle[LION] eating plants ?? have you seen the horse eating meat ?? allah[swt] have laid down certain rules my brother and gays like you are not part of islam, yes sir !!! what you are trying to show is "

"a person can go against the law of nature !"

you have compared gays to animals in your previous posts when you said there are certain animals who are homosexuals etc etc , so according to you if animals can do it why cant gays

animal = gays = sex [ this is what it comes to if i go with your opinion]

gays = act like woman, walk like but..........they are not woman , who are they ???? a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig question

lesbians = act like man[dominant partner], walk like a man, dress like a man but........they are not men, who are they ????? a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig question

And you missed the point of my hypothetical, it was proof that your sexual orientation ISN'T a conscious decision.

i would prefer dying than rather being a gay on this earth, what you are doing is since ur gay mind = GENETIC MIND

is not able to process proofs it simply changed the question , my dear friend when you dont have gutz to prove anything then why do you even try to act like a GAY MESSIAH ???

1] you proved nothing sooooooooooooooo far, i even gave you the aayat you simply choose to ignore @ surah 4:16

2] you compared yourself and your like ones with animals [the way some animals mate] but what you forget is those animals can change their own gender

, THEY DONT NEED NO DOCTOR FOR THAT !!!

for ex: a worm/fish can change his sex and can reproduce, show me that gays like you can change their sex and reproduce without undergoing any operation !!!!

3] then you talked about your gay genes but never showed me a single case or a proof that gay genes actually exist and is not a myth, plus when i said something regarding rape gene your gay genes felt offended, now if allah[swt] can create gay genes then why cant he create rape genes ??? to which nooooooooooooo answer was given

4] then you said heterosexuals also engage in anal sex,tell me this

" WHEN DID I SAID HETEROSEXUALS CANT HAVE ANAL SEX ???? "

are you trying to force us to believe that the verse related to gays are actually for heterosexuals ??

let me make this very clear quran have given full permission to the husband and wife = man and woman can do whatever they want , and heres the proof :

2:223 (Y. Ali) Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

2:223 (Asad) Your wives are your tilth; go, then, unto your tilth as you may desire, but first provide something for your souls, [211] and remain conscious of God, and know that you are destined to meet Him. And give glad tidings unto those who believe.

The understanding of this verse, is that wives (women) are tilth for men, so the tilth happens to men in this sentence, and tilth here does not mean reproduction as men don't get pregnant, so tilth here means refreshing the body and giving energy to men as happens to the land after tilthing. so the verse says have your tilth you men and the way you like not certain way, as it depends on free imagination without rules, so that means anal sex is allowed as the verses here gave permission to totally free style sex with wives as word [anna] means in Arabic whenever, wherever and however in the same time.

but this act is very risky and the couple have to use lot of precautions

5] if a man indulge in fellatio then thats a sin...its haram !!!!!!!!!

@ above aayat is more than enough to staisfy my momin brothers and sisters , god said man and woman, god never said man and man....allah[swt] is soo merciful that he gave complete freedom to a husband and wife...they both have equal rights !!

runnnnnnn

Gem · Post by **Gem** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:50 pm

ShamsB wrote:
a1337 wrote:But with Hungama, the debate has shifted to whether we can allow homosexuals to live amongst us, and while he is entitled to believe homosexuality is wrong, he's taking it to the point where he refuses to accept them as ismailis or people for that matter.
Well the one thing i would tell him is to look at Christ as an example -

"Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone."

Hungama, if you view this as a sin against Allah - let Allah decide..not us...Who are we to decide? our job is to strive to be the best we can....we need to have acceptance - we have so many other problems that we can be focusing our energies in that are so much more important - ever thought of waging a campaign against smoking or alcohol..esp by our Youth in the West - as now we are in a "permissive" society, where anything goes..(paraphrasing Hazar Imam)..now that is an area where we have clear farmans from Hazar Imam that it is a bad habit....or combating poverty or domestic violence or even starting a successful cooperative society whereby the Ismailies of a city or a state collaborate on helping each other in business matters or real estate? or even educational matters...yet we want to argue about who does what in the bedroom......some of our brethren don't even have the privilege of a bedroom..let's get each one of us a bedroom..then we can worry about what goes in there? what do you say eh?

Shams

Yam!

It is honored to be with all of you. First of all, I would like to suggest no one should mis-quote anything or any-being i,e 'Quran, hadeeth' Farmeen, Work, Prophets, People etc. Now homo-sexuality is natural or un-natural, regardless of different Sociologist, Psychologists and Scientists, i would like to believe, 'All strives for homo-sexuality are un-natural' Personally, I consider, economical fundamentalists are responsible for that and here i would like to agree the 'Right-wing' think-tanks ideology about 'Sexual-revolution' by which economical fundamentalists are ruining lives and its all aspects, it has sacrificed abiding happiness at the altars of instant fun and has crucified health on the cross of wealth. It has made love without sex abnormal but sex without love to appear natural and admirable. It has reduced love to man-kind and has made love a lasting captive of unadulterated lust. It has taught us that sex is not for life but life is for sex. That sex must overrule every other consideration and overcome every obstacle in its way. If it is the custodian of Law, it has to behave, if it is the moral-code of religion it has to be confronted. It has made us believe that sex must not necessarily be between a human and a human, it can be between a human and an animal. That sex must not always want two sexes, it may be between a man and a man, and between a woman and a woman. That sex must not care ages, it may be between an adult and a child. That sex may not absolutely draw those who are not linked by blood, it may involve a mother and a son, a father and a daughter and a brother and a sister. That sex should not always be limited to two individuals, many may join simultaneously. That sex must not necessarily use organs that are naturally meant for it, any organ that can be penetrated is fit for copulation. Now with regards to pluralism, yes I’d believe in co-existence, where we may have respect for our differences. I remember a verse of Quran, which states,

And say: "The truth [has now come] from your Sustainer: let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it." Al-Kahf verse 23

But it sounds ir-rational to me, a muslim can be a homo-sexual, surely we have a doctrine, a moral-code, which is light for this life and hereafter. Rationally, if we believe a religion or any law, we should follow it or we should not claim for it. One more thing is that, there is a huge difference between a 'Submitter' (muslim) and a 'Believer' (Momin)

Allah address in Quran,

THE BEDOUIN say, “We have attained to faith." Say [unto them, O Muhammad]: “You have not [yet] attained to faith, you should [rather] say, 'We have [outwardly] surrendered’ for [true] faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you [truly] pay heed unto God and His Apostle, He will not let the least of your deeds go to waste for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.” Al-Hujraat verse 49

May God help us in making a profitable use of our ears and eyes. May God make us one of the 'Saeeds' , May He give us an opportunity to meet the Imams (A.S) who are the moulders of the destinies of man. Amen!

With regards An Ismaili

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:03 pm

My responding to your posts is a sign of you shutting me up? Are you really that stupid? You've gotten to the point where you reduced your argument to what if MHI says homosexuals are bad. Why don't I through that question back at you and if MHI expresses that homosexuals have every right to exist and to be ismaili? Your arguments are full of hypocrisy and just want to spread hate because you're too ignorant.

You saying heterosexuality is the 'law of nature' is not proven, you're basing on the intuitive evidence of procreation. However, I have already mentioned that there is a percentage of homosexuals of other species and this percentage (~5%) is similar to humans. That debunks your argument of nature. Lions don't eat plants because felines are strict carnivores, if they can't eat meat they die, if that were similar with homosexuals, there wouldn't be an issue because they would have died out ages ago. Just to clarify to your moronic brain, if animals can do it, it clearly IS NOT an intellectual and/or conscious decision. You should also note that humans are animals.

Let's see, now you go into the most stereotypical view of homosexuals, gays being feminine and lesbians being manly. You clearly know not of the real world. I know a few lesbians and gays and most of them follow what you'd define as being manly or feminine. However, those chracteristics you're holding homosexuals are so faulty, you shouldn't be judging heterosexuals, you're just being sexcist at this point.

I've been telling you and YOU EVEN AGREED that those passages refer to sodomy... you make the idiotic assumption that if you're gay, you engage in sodomy, and sodomy applies to BOTH heterosexual and homosexual relations. Anal sex is still sodomy whether you like it or not! That is a crude translation as it gives way to many loopholes (i.e. if you get your fancies off torture, mutilation, etc.) and that means in theory you could get your wife to engage in a homosexual act if it brings you pleasure.

Why you call me gay because I feel homosexuals have the right to exist in society is just ignorant. You don't see me calling you retarded because you seem to support stupidity.

Hi Gem,

I agree with your point about striving to homosexuality being wrong, but I feel that it is a 2 way street and a homosexual striving to heterosexual would also be wrong. I see the point you're making about the corruption of the sexual revolution, but I respectfully disagree that it is the cause of all this. Homosexuals have existed since ancient Greece and even promiscuous sex. However, promiscuity is probably the only negative result of the sexual revolution. Some of your points are exaggerated, like love between a person and an animal or an adult and child. Those are not social norms, or legal because it is not consensual, which, besides the shock value of it, is the main issue I imagine people take with it. We constantly face temptations everyday, and as we move into a society that has to cater differing opinions, the rules have to be there to give them the freedom to do it. The best way to think about that is to imagine if practicing Islam suddenly became illegal because it was allegedly 'wrong.' We would all either be fighting for it or at the very least practice it in secret. So, we must tolerate people's view on sex regardless of how much it differs, and while we should be aware of the general view of a society, you shouldn't let it consume you. Hopefully, I touched on the points you made there, you had a lot there. But what we've been arguing is that there are a lot of ways to interpret what is in the Quran and a lot of what we read is based on our own prejudices and opinions. And I think there's a difference to believing something a certain way because it's convenient or because you genuinely believe it's right. I'm personally a heterosexual, I wouldn't gain or lose at whatever fate is established for homosexuals and I think that's what makes me a believer. Especially when the old thought was that homosexuality was a conscious decision, which was debunked to it being a mental disorder and now there's not a clear idea what the cause is of homosexuality. I believe there must be something inate or possibly genetic given that this exists with other species as well, or maybe this is Allah's will in action. There's no evidence that supports that it's a mental disorder, addiction, conscious thought, genetic evidence doesn't have a concrete answer. But I've talked to people I know who are gay and none of them ever said it was choice, they've all said they tried to go straight but couldn't.

I do know that this faith is about pluralism and accepting people, so at the very least, I know homosexuals have the right to exist and to not face discrimination, and being homosexual shouldn't restrict their faith in islam. And think about the dedication they may have when there are so many people saying this 'faith doesn't allow them' and to still come to khane and still believe in Allah, I would be suprised if they're not believers personally.

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:15 pm

My responding to your posts is a sign of you shutting me up? Are you really that stupid? You've gotten to the point where you reduced your argument to what if MHI says homosexuals are bad. Why don't I through that question back at you and if MHI expresses that homosexuals have every right to exist and to be ismaili? Your arguments are full of hypocrisy and just want to spread hate because you're too ignorant.

hypocrisy ??? the proofs which you gave regarding gay genes etc etc are stripped naked , who'z the biggest hypocrite ?

and mark my words if, if MHI says that homo's have place in ismailism then i would be the first person to leave ismailism.

the problem with you is you dont have gutz to answer my questions

, what you do is you answer my question with the question khair, whatelse can we expect from a hypocrite

You saying heterosexuality is the 'law of nature' is not proven, you're basing on the intuitive evidence of procreation.

hehehehe, my goodness...according to you adam[as] and eve[as] is mere a story , god created man and a woman and that itself is a proof !

ofcourse its related to procreation and if thats not the case then me and you wouldn't be having this debate right now , my proof is logical and valid in the light of quran.

atleast i dont answer a question with a question

However, I have already mentioned that there is a percentage of homosexuals of other species and this percentage (~5%) is similar to humans. That debunks your argument of nature.

dont just talk the talk my friend ,PROVE IT !!

Lions don't eat plants because felines are strict carnivores, if they can't eat meat they die, if that were similar with homosexuals, there wouldn't be an issue because they would have died out ages ago.

thats exactly my point ! a carnivore cannot live/survive on plants and when a carnivore stops eating it dies, similarly gayism can survive, yes it can survive BUT not in islam, if you read memoirs of our holy 48th imam he emphasised on woman education and equality, if gays are allowed in islam then our imam would have clearly mentioned it in his memoirs.

again you loose

Just to clarify to your moronic brain, if animals can do it, it clearly IS NOT an intellectual and/or conscious decision. You should also note that humans are animals.

why do we call ourselves ashraful maklukaat brother ???

i think your moronic brain needs a jump start

i already said this in my previous post , human beings are called "HOMO SAPIENS" which means a wise human...we are sooo wise that allah made us rulers of this world, do we see your cousins[MONKEYS] as president/prime minister etc etc

Let's see, now you go into the most stereotypical view of homosexuals, gays being feminine and lesbians being manly. You clearly know not of the real world. I know a few lesbians and gays and most of them follow what you'd define as being manly or feminine.

this is because they are scared of society,family,friends etc etc, the day thy come out of the closet you'll see their real faces

just take this as an example, we have like minded fagz like you who visit jk but they are scared to come out of their closet and face jamat, if for example our imam grants permission saying homo's are allowed in jamatkhana then the very first year you gonna see homos sitting in female section, 2nd year you'll see homo's dressing as woman in jamat khana and soon after that we will have gay marriages, this is what you want right ??? this is what you are fighting for ?? have enough courage to say YES, this is exactly you want

I've been telling you and YOU EVEN AGREED that those passages refer to sodomy... you make the idiotic assumption that if you're gay, you engage in sodomy, and sodomy applies to BOTH heterosexual and homosexual relations. Anal sex is still sodomy whether you like it or not! That is a crude translation as it gives way to many loopholes (i.e. if you get your fancies off torture, mutilation, etc.) and that means in theory you could get your wife to engage in a homosexual act if it brings you pleasure.

and quran already clarified that the verse related to sodomy are for gays

Why you call me gay because I feel homosexuals have the right to exist in society is just ignorant. You don't see me calling you retarded because you seem to support stupidity.

alryte mr.messiah lemme ask you this , are you in the favour that gay marriage should be allowed in jamatkhana ??

irfan217p · Post by **irfan217p** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:29 pm

I think MHI has hinted towards this issue in his Dec. 13th guidance that was read in every JK...basically saying that he won't overturn the policies towards drinking, substance abuse, and social lifestyles just because we live in a certain time or region...

I'm sorry I don't wanna quote the exact farman but that's what I remembered so I've paraphrased it...

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:45 pm

The next issue that we will deal with is something which is relatively new for all of us, which is the need to change the emphasis of our education programmes. Early Childhood Development has become a feature of modern society, and neuro-science has demonstrated today that it is in the earliest years of childhood that the capacities of young people, who then grow up, are best developed. What this means is that, over the next decades, we have to work very very hard to try to establish Early Childhood Development Centres for the Jamat around the world, in the rural areas, in the urban areas, and I believe that this can be done effectively, quickly, and that it will be essentially in the hands of my spiritual daughters. They are the ones to whom I will be looking to say, help the Jamat, help the Imam, to offer these new opportunities for our young people, and I genuinely believe that the more we are able to offer these opportunities of early childhood development, the earlier we will be able to reposition the future of these communities in their respective societies, so this is a major commitment in a new area to preparing the Jamat for life in the future.

talika mubarak
dated 13th dec 2008

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:58 pm

Freedom is tending to become licence. That is not acceptable. The abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom. And therefore, I think we have to be very careful that we understand the ethics of our faith, abide by the ethics of our faith, and explain to the others that we have our own ethics.

FROM ADMIN

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a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:48 pm

you're trying to imply that he's referring explicitly to homosexuality, which he isn't most likely. There are a lot of aspects of the Western world that conflict with islam, but allowing homosexuals to exist isn't a conflict, letting them be ismaili is not a conflict. You should know it is possible to allow homosexuals to exist within a society and not also be a homosexual. So you don't need to be homophobic.

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:20 pm

you're trying to imply that he's referring explicitly to homosexuality, which he isn't most likely. There are a lot of aspects of the Western world that conflict with islam, but allowing homosexuals to exist isn't a conflict, letting them be ismaili is not a conflict. You should know it is possible to allow homosexuals to exist within a society and not also be a homosexual. So you don't need to be homophobic.

and when did i said he is referring to gaylords like you explicitly ?? when our imam said social habits it includes drugs,alcohol and all other stuff that has an adverse effect and this includes gaylords too !!!

yes and one of the conflicts is GAYISM in islamic world

how can i see fagz like you walking/talking/acting or dressing like a women in our jamat khana ?????

ofcourse you'll be cool with that but not me because jamatkhana does not belong to gaylords

when our 48th imam laid down certain customs one of them was man and woman sitting side by side.... now this my friend is the sign of UNITY, a sign of EQUALITY . Ofcourse i believe in democracy but what you forget is ismailism is not run by few democrats or gaylords like you, its a dictatorship ....it is only imam of the time that can make changes in our tariqah and he already cleared this in his firman that he will not make any compromise wutsoever

TheMaw · Post by **TheMaw** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:05 pm

hungama25 wrote:when our imam said social habits it includes drugs,alcohol and all other stuff that has an adverse effect and this includes gaylords too !!!

yes and one of the conflicts is GAYISM in islamic world

how can i see fagz like you walking/talking/acting or dressing like a women in our jamat khana ?????

ofcourse you'll be cool with that but not me because jamatkhana does not belong to gaylords

when our 48th imam laid down certain customs one of them was man and woman sitting side by side.... now this my friend is the sign of UNITY, a sign of EQUALITY . Ofcourse i believe in democracy but what you forget is ismailism is not run by few democrats or gaylords like you, its a dictatorship ....it is only imam of the time that can make changes in our tariqah and he already cleared this in his firman that he will not make any compromise wutsoever

Please stop using homophobic slurs. Fags, faggot, gaylords... it's really offensive.

Also, you are obviously about 10 years old, because if you were any older you'd realise that gay men don't walk around in women's clothing.

Maybe you should read a primer on gay and lesbian issues, because you don't appear to understand even the basics of homosexuality.

Also, I love how you indicate that the faith is a "dictatorship", yet you say that if the Imam-e Zamaan said something about gays and lesbians being okay, you'd ignore him and leave the faith. What kind of "faith" is that?

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:15 pm

Just as a general response to Hungama's post on Equality in regards to homosexuality:

You're trying to force civil law on other people who not only share your faith, but also your interpretation of that faith. You haven't justified how BEING a homosexual is wrong. You're also coming up with the oldest, most moronic stereotypes of homosexuals that you seem to believe to be true. You clearly know nothing about homosexuality other than what you choose to infer from the Quran.

You try to argue that homosexuals choose their way of life either by a direct action of wanting to be gay or an apparent 'lack of action' like not learning to walk. If homosexuality is a direct action, how do you make someone a homosexual? While you can force or manipulate someone to engage in some form of homosexual sodomy, it does not mean that they are homosexual. And if it is a lack of action, does that mean you were born gay and chose to be straight?

I am getting fed up with your name calling, you're getting to point of blasphemy. Calling me 'gaylord' implies that you see me as a God and goes against everything Islam teaches, you really know little about this faith. I suggest you go to the library and read some literature on Islam.

Your arguments are a joke because you have this strong intent that homosexuals aren't allowed in any society. You also embrace the idea of being the terrorist of gays, 'warning' them. You're basically threatening to wipe out gays if you had the opportunity. Just because you're on the internet gives you no right to threaten a minority of people. I suggest you wait until you don't need mommy and daddy's permission to use the computer to make your statements, and read a book or two while you wait. It seems hard moving from India to the US and having to adapt to being the minority, but just because the other kids pick on you for being different doesn't mean you should do that to others.

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:07 pm

Also, you are obviously about 10 years old, because if you were any older you'd realise that gay men don't walk around in women's clothing.

sister what i was trying to say is if we allow gays and lesbians like you in our jamatkhana everything will be normal for only a certain point and after that we will see woman dressing like man and man dressing like woman in our jamatkhana, it will be the style statement...i dont want my kids to be even influenced by gays and lesbians like you.

i dont believe in "duniya jaye tel lene" concept, if you wanna contribute to our society you are most welcome , if you dont even then its fine but dont stand like a dumb head in front of the world and say iam ismaili lesbian, this forum is viewed by ismailis and non ismailis so please think before you talk crap

Maybe you should read a primer on gay and lesbian issues, because you don't appear to understand even the basics of homosexuality.

basics of homosexuality ???

you talking about basics of homosex lemme ask you this tell me the basics of islam ??

Also, I love how you indicate that the faith is a "dictatorship", yet you say that if the Imam-e Zamaan said something about gays and lesbians being okay, you'd ignore him and leave the faith. What kind of "faith" is that?

and why cant i ??? give me a good reason why i shudnt leave my sect when it can go against islam ?? i know for sure my imam e zaman cannot go against the quran because as i said earlier

" ali is with quran and quran is with ali "

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:11 pm

hungama25 wrote:
Also, you are obviously about 10 years old, because if you were any older you'd realise that gay men don't walk around in women's clothing.
sister what i was trying to say is if we allow gays and lesbians like you in our jamatkhana everything will be normal for only a certain point and after that we will see woman dressing like man and man dressing like woman in our jamatkhana, it will be the style statement...i dont want my kids to be even influenced by gays and lesbians like you.

i dont believe in "duniya jaye tel lene" concept, if you wanna contribute to our society you are most welcome , if you dont even then its fine but dont stand like a dumb head in front of the world and say iam ismaili lesbian, this forum is viewed by ismailis and non ismailis so please think before you talk crap

Maybe you should read a primer on gay and lesbian issues, because you don't appear to understand even the basics of homosexuality.
basics of homosexuality ???

you talking about basics of homosex lemme ask you this tell me the basics of islam ??

Also, I love how you indicate that the faith is a "dictatorship", yet you say that if the Imam-e Zamaan said something about gays and lesbians being okay, you'd ignore him and leave the faith. What kind of "faith" is that?
and why cant i ??? give me a good reason why i shudnt leave my sect when it can go against islam ?? i know for sure my imam e zaman cannot go against the quran because as i said earlier

" ali is with quran and quran is with ali "

Ali was there before the Qu'ran and didn't need the Qu'ran to be the Imam ergo Ali is above the Qu'ran.

Shams

Gem · Post by **Gem** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:29 pm

Hi Gem,
I agree with your point about striving to homosexuality being wrong, but I feel that it is a 2 way street and a homosexual striving to heterosexual would also be wrong. I see the point you're making about the corruption of the sexual revolution, but I respectfully disagree that it is the cause of all this. Homosexuals have existed since ancient Greece and even promiscuous sex. However, promiscuity is probably the only negative result of the sexual revolution. Some of your points are exaggerated, like love between a person and an animal or an adult and child. Those are not social norms, or legal because it is not consensual, which, besides the shock value of it, is the main issue I imagine people take with it. We constantly face temptations everyday, and as we move into a society that has to cater differing opinions, the rules have to be there to give them the freedom to do it. The best way to think about that is to imagine if practicing Islam suddenly became illegal because it was allegedly 'wrong.' We would all either be fighting for it or at the very least practice it in secret. So, we must tolerate people's view on sex regardless of how much it differs, and while we should be aware of the general view of a society, you shouldn't let it consume you. Hopefully, I touched on the points you made there, you had a lot there. But what we've been arguing is that there are a lot of ways to interpret what is in the Quran and a lot of what we read is based on our own prejudices and opinions. And I think there's a difference to believing something a certain way because it's convenient or because you genuinely believe it's right. I'm personally a heterosexual, I wouldn't gain or lose at whatever fate is established for homosexuals and I think that's what makes me a believer. Especially when the old thought was that homosexuality was a conscious decision, which was debunked to it being a mental disorder and now there's not a clear idea what the cause is of homosexuality. I believe there must be something inate or possibly genetic given that this exists with other species as well, or maybe this is Allah's will in action. There's no evidence that supports that it's a mental disorder, addiction, conscious thought, genetic evidence doesn't have a concrete answer. But I've talked to people I know who are gay and none of them ever said it was choice, they've all said they tried to go straight but couldn't.

I do know that this faith is about pluralism and accepting people, so at the very least, I know homosexuals have the right to exist and to not face discrimination, and being homosexual shouldn't restrict their faith in islam. And think about the dedication they may have when there are so many people saying this 'faith doesn't allow them' and to still come to khane and still believe in Allah, I would be suprised if they're not believers personally.[/quote]

Hi !

I am thankful for your honest attention. I do not intend to conclude, cause of homosexuality it can be confusing. There are countless conceptions on this subject. They proclaim the causes to be genetics, hormonal disorder, recreation, sexual mistreatment, prenatal hormone deficiency, or lack of bonding with a same sex parent. The one commonality among them is they are all UNPROVEN theories as you also agreed. I humbly agree that homosexuality is not a new fashion but as I blamed economical fundamentalists, I meant, the diversity of thought of this degree, which is well known by people. Also there is a difference in past, homosexuality or lesbianism was measured as a spoil sexual behavior whereas now it is being label as natural and as a result of innate propensity! By the term sexual revolution I do not mean only the homosexuality, but all sort of the sexual abuse in the name of freedom or human right due to delusion of minds. In your response you shared your experience about gay people, who did well too be straight but could not fulfill their efforts. What was the self-awareness level of that people? This uncertain excuse, recalls a saying of Imam Ali A.S, Moula said,

Failures are often the results of timidity and fears; disappointments are the results of bashfulness. Hours of leisure pass away like summer clouds therefore, do not waste opportunity of doing good. Imam Ali A.S (Peak of Eloquence)

However, divine laws and moral values are not set in place based on feelings or emotions. The firm foundation for our laws and values are based on God's principles. Here I would like to ask you, do you believe God is just? Surely he is, for all theists, regardless of their theologies and doctrines. Now, if homosexuality was moral, God should not condemn it nor his prophets and imams, but the reality is pretty different. It is the grave sin according to monotheistic traditions and the punishment is almost ‘killing’ according to constitution of these religions. . God says in Bible,

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 18:22

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that, which grew upon the ground. Genesis 19:24 25

Allah says in Quran

And so, when Our judgment came to pass, We turned those [sinful towns] upside down, and rained down upon them stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained, one upon another. Quran HUD 82

So assembling declaration that these people practice the moral code of religion or believe in religion is nothing but a lame hypothesis.

Ahmad Narrated from Ibn Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “May Allah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, three times. This was classed as sound / hasan by Shuayb al-Arna’oot in Tahqeeq al-Musnad Hadeeth no 2915

This hadeeth is also quoted by Pir Nasir khusro (Q.S) in his excellent book ‘Face of Deen’ (Wajeh-Deen) on same topic, he also discussed spiritual aspects of this sin and interpreted the 'Curse' of God and his follower as well as the spiritual status of such objects in religion. At the same time, I remember something precious, Pir Nasir khusro referred this poetry as Imam Ali (A.S) work, and we find it in Ikhwan-e-Safe too, it states,

Do you Man consider yourself a small thing, while the great universe is involved in you?

MAN who attempts to resemble God within the human, capacity?

MAN who even approaches the limits of divinity, by attaining the best and most perfect?

Yes, I do believe all religion are one in spirit, they have same intention for devotion to the creator and purification of soul as much as human ability permits. The IMAMS preserved it, the spokesperson of God on Earth and the guidance to these creatures. We should remember God by following imam as much as we have forgotten Him. Yes, I do agree the pluralistic notion of religion and believe in co-existence, I do advocate it as guided by the Imam A.S. Simply, I do not support homosexuality (or any sort of immoralities) but I tolerate anyone right to choose them. It’s a freedom of choice with a specific degree of free-will given by God to us for the test. I would like you to make a research about the word believer (mu'min) and submitter (Muslim), religion is an open umbrella for all, wise unwise, rich poor, black white, loyal disloyal, truthful untruthful etc but all claimer do not possess same status in sight of Allah. As Allah says in Quran

O Ye Folk verily we have created you from male and female and made you races and tribes that you may know each other, the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. Alhujrat verse 13

So the aim of life is clearly being pious by divine light of Allah, therefore anyone who submit his / her faith in any religion, should be sincere with it or should not claim for it, rationally that would be their honesty with their selves in both cases. In the end, I would like to quote a passage (uploaded by admin) from Farman of Moula Hazer imam, the Zephyr says,

Freedom is tending to become license. That is not acceptable. The abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom. And therefore, I think we have to be very careful that we understand the ethics of our faith, abide by the ethics of our faith, and explain to the others that we have our own ethics.

May God make us familiar with the knowledge of truth and may He preserve us from the mischievous instigation of the devil and the vicious influence of the hypocrites. Amen

With regards An Ismaili

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:46 pm

You're trying to force civil law on other people who not only share your faith, but also your interpretation of that faith. You haven't justified how BEING a homosexual is wrong. You're also coming up with the oldest, most moronic stereotypes of homosexuals that you seem to believe to be true. You clearly know nothing about homosexuality other than what you choose to infer from the Quran.

and what is our sacred scripture ?? i think you dont understand the language of humans ..khair lemme show this one more time not just from quran but also from bible

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (NKJ, Leviticus 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13)

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (NIV, Romans 1:25-27)

and this is what quran says regarding people like you :

4:16 (Y. Ali) If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

i asked you last time and im gonna ask you again, kindly interpret this aayat in your own words

plus the story of h.lut[as] is exactly same in both quran and bible .. i wonder, is this not a sign that allah warned the jews , christians and muslims !

You try to argue that homosexuals choose their way of life either by a direct action of wanting to be gay or an apparent 'lack of action' like not learning to walk. If homosexuality is a direct action, how do you make someone a homosexual? While you can force or manipulate someone to engage in some form of homosexual sodomy, it does not mean that they are homosexual. And if it is a lack of action, does that mean you were born gay and chose to be straight?

do not mix your views with my posts , how do homosexuals walk ? heres how they walk,talk,dress

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ8RH1WbpBw

and this is what i dont want in our holy jamatkhana

I am getting fed up with your name calling, you're getting to point of blasphemy. Calling me 'gaylord' implies that you see me as a God and goes against everything Islam teaches, you really know little about this faith. I suggest you go to the library and read some literature on Islam.

fed up ??? so fast ?? come on bro you are a messiah, god head for gays[nouzbillah]..come on act like one

we just started and insha allah v'll go in depth my freind, in depth

Your arguments are a joke because you have this strong intent that homosexuals aren't allowed in any society. You also embrace the idea of being the terrorist of gays, 'warning' them. You're basically threatening to wipe out gays if you had the opportunity. Just because you're on the internet gives you no right to threaten a minority of people. I suggest you wait until you don't need mommy and daddy's permission to use the computer to make your statements, and read a book or two while you wait. It seems hard moving from India to the US and having to adapt to being the minority, but just because the other kids pick on you for being different doesn't mean you should do that to others.

if you can kindly stick to the topic i would really appreciate that, so far no proof is given this is the third time iam asking you

1] interpret surah 4:16 in your own words

2] give us the proof that gay genes do exist

clear ??

psst pstt ...just to let you know that even though its been 4-5 years since iam in usa ,shukhar mawla people give me a lot of respect and they are always excited to learn about islam and ismailism

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:51 pm

Ali was there before the Qu'ran and didn't need the Qu'ran to be the Imam ergo Ali is above the Qu'ran.

Shams

brother ofcourse he was but ali was not ali before he was born , correct ? just like our imam is always present with us spiritually and not physically, its the same thing here

ali was ali after ali was born and ali became imam ali after our holy prophet declared him as our imam e zaman

if holy prophet[saw] did not conveyed his wasi after him then i dont think you and me would have been following this sect