Farman on Homosexuality?

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:42 pm

qifar you said : As to family production; think back along the long history of your life and tell me that you have never used a contraceptive during sex, or wasting sperm by masturbating (i presume you are male from you ignorance). If you argue that homosexuality is wrong because it does not produce viable offspring, surely, you must argue contraceptives, oral sex, anal sex and vasectomies in addition to masturbation or wet dreaming are just as evil the following article is for u and ENZURU "Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!  (The Noble Quran, 27:55)""And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth."  (The Noble Quran, 29:28-29)" you are asking for the same wrath my bro which the people of H.LUT[as] asked and GOD DELIVERED  'Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:  "A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering.   (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0667)" "God did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of God, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.  (The Noble Quran, 3:164)" even after we got clear instructions my bro u still wanna incline towards jaahiliyat ???? "(We sent) clear proofs and the scriptures. Now, We have sent you this reminder (Qur’an) so that you may demonstrate the revelations to them. Perhaps they may reflect and ponder!  (The Noble Quran, 16:44)" "When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Apostle, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of God unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.  (The Noble Quran, 4:83)" REGARDING PRECAUTIONS OR CONTRACEPTIVES BRO, lemme tell u this when ALLAH[SWT] can bring glad tidings[SON, JESUS] to BIBI MARYAM[pbuh] do u think that this so called CONTRACEPTIVES CAN STAND IN FRONT OF ALMIGHTY v use condoms/pills but CONDOMS CAN BREAK [most woman in america get pregnant due to torn/puncture condom during intercourse] , pills might sometimes fail to effect what did our beloved 48th imam said in his memoirs ??????????? OUTSIDE ALLAHS WILL NOTHING IS POSSIBLE, and allah supported his statement in holy quran "And God did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to God.  (The Noble Quran, 35:11)" "That He did create in pairs,- male and female,   (The Noble Quran, 53:45)""And of him He made two sexes, male and female.   (The Noble Quran, 75:39)" "By (the mystery of) the creation of male and female;   (The Noble Quran, 92:3)" "Enter ye the Garden, ye and your wives, in (beauty and) rejoicing.  (The Noble Quran, 43:70)" why did god never said ENTER YE THE GARDEN,YE[man] AND YOUR HUSBANDS ???  "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.  (The Noble Quran, 30:21)" "Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;  (The Noble Quran, 4:23)" REGARDING MARRIAGE , ALLAH[SWT] MADE IT VERY CLEAR IN HOLY QURAN WHEN HE[SWT] SAID "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.   (The Noble Quran, 4:3)" PUNISHMENT "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.   (The Noble Quran, 4:15)"   If the lesbian woman or women repent, then she or they would be set free.  <A href="http://www.answering-christianity.com/houses.htm" target=_blank>See proof.</A>"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.   (The Noble Quran, 4:16)"   "A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs,in order that ye may receive admonition. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes:Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.(The Noble Quran, 24:1-2)

Nor come nigh to adultery:for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).(The Noble Quran, 17:32)

"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is:execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land:that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter(The Noble Quran, 5:33)

you dont need our beloved imam e zaman to make u understand this simple quranic aayats, u need to use ur head

1] OUR PROPHET[SAW] SAID IN HIS HADITHS THAT V SHUDNT STARE AT OTHER MENS PRIVATE PARTS

2] OUR IMAM[AS] IN HIS MEMOIRS TALKED ABOUT MARRIAGE

3] ALLAH[SWT], THE CREATOR AND THE DESTROYER WARNED HOMOS IN THE PAST[GOSPEL] AND AGAIN IN HOLY QURAN THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS PROHIBITED

AND STOP TALKING ABOUT SCIENCE BCOZ WHAT SCIENTISTS ARE DISCOVERING NOW HAS BEEN TOLD SOME 1400 YEARS AGO IN THE BOOK OF GOD [HOLY QURAN]

may mawla guide u

YA ALI MADAD

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:38 pm

I did not read most of your post because it is (1) incoherent with all of the tags, please learn how to post and (2) because it appears that you are just regurgitating you same arguments which I have already exposed as being insufficient.

AND STOP TALKING ABOUT SCIENCE BCOZ WHAT SCIENTISTS ARE DISCOVERING NOW HAS BEEN TOLD SOME 1400 YEARS AGO IN THE BOOK OF GOD [HOLY QURAN]

TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER AND GET OFF THE INTERNET YOU FUCKING IDIOT! These are the results of science, along with motorized cars, airplanes, trains and modern medicine. If you want to live you life by a book which was compiled some 1400 years ago be my guest. I wish you, your camel and four fives all of the best on your next caravan raid. The Quran is NOT a scientific text. It is vague and much like any text of its volume one can infer meanings and predictions from it post-hoc. This is not unique to the Quran and this text in no way supercedes the scientific method for the determination of truth. Would you rather trust a 1400 year odd book or a double-blind medical study to the safety of a new drug for yourself?

Just tell me, why you even care about this? If someone is gay how are you affected? Why can you not let people their lives in a manner which is comfortable and ethical to them?

It is spelled because not bcoz you moron!

-qifar

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:59 am

qifar wrote:I did not read most of your post because it is (1) incoherent with all of the tags, please learn how to post and (2) because it appears that you are just regurgitating you same arguments which I have already exposed as being insufficient.

AND STOP TALKING ABOUT SCIENCE BCOZ WHAT SCIENTISTS ARE DISCOVERING NOW HAS BEEN TOLD SOME 1400 YEARS AGO IN THE BOOK OF GOD [HOLY QURAN]
TURN OFF YOUR COMPUTER AND GET OFF THE INTERNET YOU FUCKING IDIOT! These are the results of science, along with motorized cars, airplanes, trains and modern medicine. If you want to live you life by a book which was compiled some 1400 years ago be my guest. I wish you, your camel and four fives all of the best on your next caravan raid. The Quran is NOT a scientific text. It is vague and much like any text of its volume one can infer meanings and predictions from it post-hoc. This is not unique to the Quran and this text in no way supercedes the scientific method for the determination of truth. Would you rather trust a 1400 year odd book or a double-blind medical study to the safety of a new drug for yourself?

Just tell me, why you even care about this? If someone is gay how are you affected? Why can you not let people their lives in a manner which is comfortable and ethical to them?

It is spelled because not bcoz you moron!

-qifar

What part of the Quran do you not find scientific?
As for a 1400 year old text; our Imam insists that we study the text and use it as a basis of our faith; from this text our Imam derives his authority in the eyes of the other Muslims.
This text maybe incomplete however - as Muslims we believe in the inerrency and infallibility of the Quran and we believe it to be the WORD OF ALLAH. What part of that do you not get?

In your zeal to provide logic to your point - you are twisting and molding the faith - our faith is not one of convenience -but rather one of conviction.

Please refrain from using foul language as it doesn't bolster your argument but rather render it useless. My grandfather used to say, when someone has run out points to debate and argue with, they resort to foul language.

And also please keep in mind that some of our posters are from third world countries and may not be as metrosexual and versed in grammer or spelling - all they know is how to get the point across and as mentioned before - all this is a moot point for us until there is a Farman by the Imam - and after that, it becomes a moot point as well.

I personally have no problems with gay people - though I do consider same sex fornication a sin, just like I consider drinking or smoking or lying a sin - but I am not one to judge anyone - only He can.

As Christ said - "Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone."

Shams

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:06 pm

Shams,

The Quran is NOT A SCIENTIFIC TEXT, I would like to know what part of it you consider scientific. Science is a METHOD for the discovery of truth, ususally applied to the natural world. The scientific method was first articulated by Francis Bacon during the European Renaissance, a milleium following the completion of the Quran. Even the Arab and Islamic theorists, physicians and poets did there world after the completion of the Quran. It is a book of faith, not science. And you are correct that this is a faith of conviction not of convenience. I am titillated by the irony that you copied this talking point without actually thinking out it. Conviction to truth and faith. To question and use your God-given intellect. Not to conveniently retort to easy, safe arguments.

I appreciate your right to have you own opinions on homosexuality and I applaud you for asserting them. But, more importantly I applaud you for not forcing them on others as Kid as done here. The seat of truth lies in the heart and mind of the individual, not in the Quran, Hadiths or Imam. These are all tools in the road to discovering them. We are not automaton and we need not apologize for this. We must use our intellects in addition to respecting and valuing the intellects of others. However, when individuals attempt to push their will on others or to oppress the intellect and creativity of others they must be vanquished.

Who are you to call me meterosexual? and on what basis do you make this assertion?

Sometimes one has to use foul language in the face of ignorance, I don't enjoy it but feel it is necessary on occasion.

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:14 pm

QIFAR , ur not the only one who when quran is recited leave the battle field and runnnnnn

REMEMBER MUWAIYAH??? how him and his soldiers kepts holy quran on their heads so that our beloved imam e zaman H.ALI[AS] shouldnt slay them

KHAIR SINCE UR SOOOOO IGNORANT ABOUT QURAN E PAAK N SCIENCE LEMME SHOW U ,WHAT QURAN HAS TO SAY ABOUT SCIENCE

1] HUMAN EMBRYO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywfB-OqB ... moore.html

make sure u see all 6 parts and insha allah ur PEA sized brain will grasp the beauty of holy quran [which our imam always mentions in almost all his speeches]

2] GEOLOGY MENTIONED IN HOLY QURAN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ2erlTi ... lison.html

3] SCIENTIFIC FACTS IN HOLY QURAN

Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad : “ In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...} {If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....}He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad . Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion: “So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMLdm50k2ck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUA_G5-2KVI

INSTEAD OF RUNNING FROM QURAN E PAAK , READ IS IN QURAAN E PAAK AND ULL GET HIKMAT

and as i said earlier god neveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer left anything out of quran

nuthing is left out

u take salat, imamat,fast,hajj,miracles[bees,embryo,iron etc etc etc]

OHHH I FORGOT TO MENTION , can u tell me where did the IRON come from ???? [/img]

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:55 pm

EXPLORATION OF SPACE

Humanity's exploration of space was accelerated with the Soviet satellite Sputnik on 4 October 1957, which carried aloft the first man to ever leave Earth's atmosphere: Soviet cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin. On 20 July 1969, the American astronaut Neil Armstrong became the first human being ever to set foot on the Moon.

In fact, the Qur'an revealed that such developments and achievements would one day be realised. For instance, Allah draws our attention to this in the following verse:

O company of jinn and human beings. If you are able to pierce through the confines of the heavens and Earth, pierce through them. You will not pierce through, except with a clear authority. (Qur'an, 55:33)

The Arabic word SULTAN, translated here as "a clear authority," has other meanings as well: force, power, sovereignty, dominion, law, path, permission, give leave, justify, proof and RULER

Careful examination reveals that the above verse emphasizes that humanity will be able to move into the depths of Earth and sky, but only with a superior power. In all likelihood, this superior power is the superior technology employed in the twentieth century, for it enabled scientists to achieve this great feat.

MODERN MEANS OF TRANSPORT

And horses, mules, and donkeys both to ride and for adornment. And He creates other things you do not know. (Qur'an, 16:8)

The above verse indicates that in addition to the animals mentioned here, people will have various unknown (to them) means of transport. The following verse points to the fact that there will be such mass modes of transport as ships:

A Sign for them is that We carried their families in the laden ship. And We have created for them the like of it, in which they sail. (Qur'an, 36:41-42)

COPPER

34:12 And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

how do you get electricity my friend ??? WHAT ARE THE WIRES MADE OF ?????

ATOMIC ENERGY AND FISSION

Allah splits the seed and kernel. He brings forth the living from the dead, and produces the dead out of the living. That is Allah, so how are you misguided? (Qur'an, 6:95)

The terms "seed" (al-habb) and "kernel" (an-nawa) in the above verse may indicate the splitting of the atom. Indeed, the dictionary meanings of an-nawa include "nucleus, centre, atomic nucleus." Furthermore, the description of bringing forth the living from the dead can be interpreted as Allah creating matter from dead energy. Producing the dead out of the living may refer to energy (dead) emerging from matter (living), since the atom is in motion. (Allah knows best.) That is because as well as "living," al-hayy can also mean "active, energetic." With its meaning of "non-living," al-mayyit, translated above as "dead," may very probably refer to energy.

Scientists define energy as the capacity for doing work. Matter, the material that comprises all things on Earth and in the universe, consists of atoms and molecules that can be seen to be in motion under an electron microscope. In the early twentieth century, Albert Einstein (d. 1955) theorised that matter could be converted into energy, suggesting that the two were inter-related at the atomic level.199 This may be the bringing forth of the dead from the living, as described above, or, in other words, obtaining energy from matter, which is in motion at the atomic level. In addition, yukhriju, translated as "bringing forth," also means "bringing out, emitting" (as in the case of electrical waves). Therefore, the terms in this verse may be indicating the form of energy obtained from the atom. (Allah knows best.)

Scientists can now split the atom by dividing its nucleus. Taking Einstein's theories as their starting point, they obtained energy from matter in the 1940s by means of nuclear fission, the process of splitting the atomic nucleus. The verb faliqu in Surat al-An`am 95, translated as "to split," may be a reference to fission's dictionary meaning: the process of splitting (the atom's nucleus). When this process takes place, enormous amounts of energy are released.

The words in Surat al-An`am 95 are very wise in terms of their meanings. The phenomena described in this verse bear a very close resemblance to the splitting of the atom's nucleus in order to obtain atomic energy. The verse may therefore be a reference to nuclear fission, which was only made possible by twentieth-century technology. (Allah knows best.)

THE VOYAGE TO THE MOON

84:18 And the Moon in her fullness:
84:19 Ye shall surely travel from stage to stage.
84:20 What then is the matter with them, that they believe not?-

After referring to the Moon, the above verses then say that people will mount up stage by stage. The term tarkabunna comes from the verb rakiba, (to mount, walk on a path, follow, embark upon, set about, participate, or rule). In the light of these meanings, it is very likely that the expression "you will mount up stage by stage" refers to a vehicle to be boarded.

Indeed, the astronauts' spacecraft pass through each layer of the atmosphere one by one, and then begin to pass through the Moon's gravitational field. Thus, the Moon is reached by moving through individual layers. In addition, the swearing by the Moon in Surat al-Inshiqaq 18 further strengthens this emphasis, meaning that the verse may well be a sign that humanity will travel to the Moon. (Allah knows best.)

HAVE U EVER READ THE VERYYYYYYYYY FIRST FIRMAN OF OUR 49TH IMAM E ZAMAN ????

"YOU MIGHT LAUGH TODAY WHEN I SAY IN NEXT 50 YEARS YOUR CHILDREN WILL GO ON A MOON"

I CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON BRO BUT I KNOW ITS USELESS AS OUR IMAM DURING HIS GJ [SAN ANTONIO] VISIT SAID :

"if somebody ask u about islam explain it to them, if they dont try explaining it again and if they still dont understand leave them bcoz their brain[mentality] is shallow"

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:22 pm

Kid,

You're joking right?
You do not honestly believe a few vague statements define prophecy? They can be interpreted to mean just about anything. And this is all post-hoc. I am currently working to describe the role of mast cells in autoimmune demyelinatation, using you're Quran (and only your Quran) would you be kind enough to save me the aggravation and time and describe it here and now.
A friendly suggestion to you - do not define your faith on the basis of the Quran, or Prophet, correctly describing a scientific fact before it has been discovered and published. It could very well prove to be false in the future.
None of the statements you described have done anything to further human knowledge, people with ideas and thoughts and creativity did with their God-given intellect.
And copy and pasting other people's work and ideas without referencing them is called plagiarism and is effective theft of intellectual property. What does you're faith say about such behaviour?

-qifar

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:24 pm

QIFAR

And copy and pasting other people's work and ideas without referencing them is called plagiarism and is effective theft of intellectual property. What does you're faith say about such behaviour?

MY POOR IGNORANT FRIEND ,ITS NOT ABOUT WHO IS COPY/PASTING WHAT, ITS ABOUT WHO IS SAYING WHAT

anywayz i already gave u the firman of our 49th imam regarding "islam" and as far as v muslims know HOMOSEXUALITY is prohibited in quran[islam]

and god made it veryyyy clear in quran that HOMOS are cursed in this life and the life hereafter, so u can continue giving head instead of using ur head

Indeed, one strength of Islam has always lain in its belief that creation is not static but continuous, that through scientific and other endeavours, God has opened and continues to open new windows for us to see the marvels of His creation. [Speech 16 March 1983]

-- Aga Khan IV

in short it has been there, READYMADE BY GOD...its jus that scientists have recently started discovering that which was already been there but v dint had much knowledge

Human genius is found in its variety which is the work of Allah. Harnessing that genius to the fullest should be one of the goals of all modern societies and nations in addition to mobilizing creative capacity from all segments of society. I [Tajikistan 1998]

-- Aga Khan IV

Above all, following the guidance of the Holy Quran, there was freedom of enquiry and research. The result was a magnificent flowering of artistic and intellectual activity throughout the ummah [Speech 16 March 1983][/u]

-- Aga Khan Iv

and lastly as H.ALI[AS] said

Do not hate what you do not know; for the greater part of knowledge consists of what you do not know. [Maxim]

-- Hazrat Ali[as]

so dont b hating my fren coz iam saying only that what is mentioned in quran

so its upto u bro but jus dont come and say that GOD NEVER SAID ANYTHING OR GOD IS OK WITH HOMO'S OR SHOW US A FIRMAN FROM IMAM

i hope this message is clear to all those who think jus like YOU

tc
YAA ALI MADAD

YaAliYaMowla · Post by **YaAliYaMowla** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:54 pm

It really is a shame when people begin to think that their minds create rather than having been created. The Imam's word stands above EVERYTHING, if He says look to Quran, it means look to the Quran, if He gives a farman or a speech saying something is wrong, that means it is wrong. Yes, we must use our intellect, but as my intellect will say one thing and others' will say other things, the absolute truth that we can have the utmost confidence in is the word of the Imam. The abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom (Hazar Imam, 2008) - There is no plagiarism on this one unless you want me to list out the full reference........

This world contains inequality, there is no debate about that. People are born in the poorest of circumstances. Babies are born and sold off as children. Some become disabled very early in their life. Arguments have been made that personality factors are not necessarily developed through nature, but some are innate to individuals. Follow the leadership literature (whether leaders are born with certain characteristics) as an example. These personality factors may heavily influence one's loyalty, individualism, etc. which can in turn influence his/her religious values.

Similarly, people may be born homosexual (there is still a lot of debate on this even in science so lets not pass this off as fact). Homosexuality is wrong through our religious teachings that come from the Quran, Hadiths, and through strong implications in Hazar Imam's speeches. This is similar to how drinking is wrong, gambling is wrong, etc. If you follow the 84 lakhs notion, then this may be a punishment for his/her previous life. To persevere beyond this and stay true to the teachings of the Imam and the Quran is what will help him/her pass the test.

To someone who challenged one of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's quote in the memoirs about raising a family by raising the question about those women or men who cannot have children for whatever reason. I am glad you did this, because for me, this quote I believe is targeted at homosexuality. Hazrat Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah was well beyond any of us in this world, lets please not pretend otherwise, and He knew about the women/men who may be unable to for certain reasons associated with disability. However, homosexuals do not have as legitimate of an excuse. "Severely condemned" are the words He used, no fabrication on this quote right?

A poster following the Nasir Khusraw tradition intentionally or unintentionally tried to create a gap between the satpanth and the Nasir Khusraw tradition. Firstly, ask most of your friends from Central Asia what they think about homosexuality. You're the first that defends it among the many many that I know. Secondly, above Nasir Khusraw, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for as he was a hujjat and a master of many disciplines, the Imams have also taught and explained to us to use our intellect, time and time again (and we are indebted to the Imams for taking us to such high levels as a result). Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali to Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah lived with the followers of the Satpanth tradition much more recently than Nasir Khusraw lived with the central asian jamat. Please don't speak to us about using our intellect.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:12 pm

qifar wrote:Shams,

The Quran is NOT A SCIENTIFIC TEXT, I would like to know what part of it you consider scientific. Science is a METHOD for the discovery of truth, ususally applied to the natural world. The scientific method was first articulated by Francis Bacon during the European Renaissance, a milleium following the completion of the Quran. Even the Arab and Islamic theorists, physicians and poets did there world after the completion of the Quran. It is a book of faith, not science. And you are correct that this is a faith of conviction not of convenience. I am titillated by the irony that you copied this talking point without actually thinking out it. Conviction to truth and faith. To question and use your God-given intellect. Not to conveniently retort to easy, safe arguments.

I appreciate your right to have you own opinions on homosexuality and I applaud you for asserting them. But, more importantly I applaud you for not forcing them on others as Kid as done here. The seat of truth lies in the heart and mind of the individual, not in the Quran, Hadiths or Imam. These are all tools in the road to discovering them. We are not automaton and we need not apologize for this. We must use our intellects in addition to respecting and valuing the intellects of others. However, when individuals attempt to push their will on others or to oppress the intellect and creativity of others they must be vanquished.

Who are you to call me meterosexual? and on what basis do you make this assertion?

Sometimes one has to use foul language in the face of ignorance, I don't enjoy it but feel it is necessary on occasion.

let's see..there is the theory of relativity in the quran, there is the big bang theory in the quran..amongst a few things..

In regards to the scientific method - you really need to study your islamic history to find out about muslim scientists.

Go read the quran and the farmans of the Imam.
Your statement just negated the need of the Imam - i.e. you ceased to be an ismaili - ever thought of that?

My intellect leads me to believe that sin is bad - anything i view as a sin - i try not to do.
I don't smoke - don't drink - don't go out of my way to hurt anyone - I try to live my life within what the ethics of Islam are (in my opinion).
In my faith - the way i view it - there is no compulsion..there is an attitude of live and let live - however we can't force someone to see things the way we see things; the way each one of us understands things.
If you accept homosexuality as a natural thing- than good for you - however just because you accept it doesn't mean that it's acceptable to Islam or that the rest of us have to accept it. We have to agree to live on our own paths; and let things shake out for themselves.
For me, just because someone is a homosexual doesn't mean he's any less of a person that someone that is a drunk - we all commit sin and we all we be judged on our own deeds.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:17 pm

heartbreakkid wrote:EXPLORATION OF SPACE

Humanity's exploration of space was accelerated with the Soviet satellite Sputnik on 4 October 1957, which carried aloft the first man to ever leave Earth's atmosphere: Soviet cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin. On 20 July 1969, the American astronaut Neil Armstrong became the first human being ever to set foot on the Moon.

In fact, the Qur'an revealed that such developments and achievements would one day be realised. For instance, Allah draws our attention to this in the following verse:

O company of jinn and human beings. If you are able to pierce through the confines of the heavens and Earth, pierce through them. You will not pierce through, except with a clear authority. (Qur'an, 55:33)

The Arabic word SULTAN, translated here as "a clear authority," has other meanings as well: force, power, sovereignty, dominion, law, path, permission, give leave, justify, proof and RULER

Careful examination reveals that the above verse emphasizes that humanity will be able to move into the depths of Earth and sky, but only with a superior power. In all likelihood, this superior power is the superior technology employed in the twentieth century, for it enabled scientists to achieve this great feat.

MODERN MEANS OF TRANSPORT

And horses, mules, and donkeys both to ride and for adornment. And He creates other things you do not know. (Qur'an, 16:8)

The above verse indicates that in addition to the animals mentioned here, people will have various unknown (to them) means of transport. The following verse points to the fact that there will be such mass modes of transport as ships:

A Sign for them is that We carried their families in the laden ship. And We have created for them the like of it, in which they sail. (Qur'an, 36:41-42)

COPPER

34:12 And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

how do you get electricity my friend ??? WHAT ARE THE WIRES MADE OF ?????

ATOMIC ENERGY AND FISSION

Allah splits the seed and kernel. He brings forth the living from the dead, and produces the dead out of the living. That is Allah, so how are you misguided? (Qur'an, 6:95)

The terms "seed" (al-habb) and "kernel" (an-nawa) in the above verse may indicate the splitting of the atom. Indeed, the dictionary meanings of an-nawa include "nucleus, centre, atomic nucleus." Furthermore, the description of bringing forth the living from the dead can be interpreted as Allah creating matter from dead energy. Producing the dead out of the living may refer to energy (dead) emerging from matter (living), since the atom is in motion. (Allah knows best.) That is because as well as "living," al-hayy can also mean "active, energetic." With its meaning of "non-living," al-mayyit, translated above as "dead," may very probably refer to energy.

Scientists define energy as the capacity for doing work. Matter, the material that comprises all things on Earth and in the universe, consists of atoms and molecules that can be seen to be in motion under an electron microscope. In the early twentieth century, Albert Einstein (d. 1955) theorised that matter could be converted into energy, suggesting that the two were inter-related at the atomic level.199 This may be the bringing forth of the dead from the living, as described above, or, in other words, obtaining energy from matter, which is in motion at the atomic level. In addition, yukhriju, translated as "bringing forth," also means "bringing out, emitting" (as in the case of electrical waves). Therefore, the terms in this verse may be indicating the form of energy obtained from the atom. (Allah knows best.)

Scientists can now split the atom by dividing its nucleus. Taking Einstein's theories as their starting point, they obtained energy from matter in the 1940s by means of nuclear fission, the process of splitting the atomic nucleus. The verb faliqu in Surat al-An`am 95, translated as "to split," may be a reference to fission's dictionary meaning: the process of splitting (the atom's nucleus). When this process takes place, enormous amounts of energy are released.

The words in Surat al-An`am 95 are very wise in terms of their meanings. The phenomena described in this verse bear a very close resemblance to the splitting of the atom's nucleus in order to obtain atomic energy. The verse may therefore be a reference to nuclear fission, which was only made possible by twentieth-century technology. (Allah knows best.)

THE VOYAGE TO THE MOON

84:18 And the Moon in her fullness:
84:19 Ye shall surely travel from stage to stage.
84:20 What then is the matter with them, that they believe not?-

After referring to the Moon, the above verses then say that people will mount up stage by stage. The term tarkabunna comes from the verb rakiba, (to mount, walk on a path, follow, embark upon, set about, participate, or rule). In the light of these meanings, it is very likely that the expression "you will mount up stage by stage" refers to a vehicle to be boarded.

Indeed, the astronauts' spacecraft pass through each layer of the atmosphere one by one, and then begin to pass through the Moon's gravitational field. Thus, the Moon is reached by moving through individual layers. In addition, the swearing by the Moon in Surat al-Inshiqaq 18 further strengthens this emphasis, meaning that the verse may well be a sign that humanity will travel to the Moon. (Allah knows best.)

HAVE U EVER READ THE VERYYYYYYYYY FIRST FIRMAN OF OUR 49TH IMAM E ZAMAN ????

"YOU MIGHT LAUGH TODAY WHEN I SAY IN NEXT 50 YEARS YOUR CHILDREN WILL GO ON A MOON"

I CAN GO ON AND ON AND ON BRO BUT I KNOW ITS USELESS AS OUR IMAM DURING HIS GJ [SAN ANTONIO] VISIT SAID :

"if somebody ask u about islam explain it to them, if they dont try explaining it again and if they still dont understand leave them bcoz their brain[mentality] is shallow"

The Farman is Dar - es - Salaam 1957 - your children or grandchildren may go for a picnic on the moon or venus.

Shams

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:53 pm

The Farman is Dar - es - Salaam 1957 - your children or grandchildren may go for a picnic on the moon or venus.

Does this mean that if you're children or grandchildren do not go to the moon or venus for a picnic (they likely won't, a human hasn't been back to the moon since the Apollo days and Venus is no place for a human) you faith will be shattered? Mine won't because I interpenetrate these words and the words of the Quran in their time and place they were made.

If creation is infinite and constantly expanding, how can all of the answers and properties of the universe exist in a single text compiled 1400 years ago?

And I am still waiting for one of you Quranic scholars to describe the role of mast cells in autoimmune demyelinating encephalitis to me, since all of the scientific data I have collected means nothing when you can reference the Quran. I guess it a lot more difficult to find a Quranic reference before someone has done all of the legwork and made the discovery.

Tell me a scientific fact that is currently unknown from the Quran, please, or make a prediction based on it. If you can't you have no business calling it a scientific text.

-qifar

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:42 pm

Oh boy, it seems like this debate on whether homosexuals have the right to well, be with whom they wish is beginning to turn more into a debate on the interplay of religion and science. There is a forum on faith and science, but it's full of redundant articles posted by one person making impossible to talk about anything.

Now Qifar is right about how the Quran is by no means a source of scientific knowledge. Science is a method while the Quran is literature. Having said that, the Quran can be interpreted in so many ways. Think about the numerous differences in practices between ismailies and other sects of Islam. Also, because the Quran is written like poetry, its interpretation is left to individual, we all have are own ideas of what is right and wrong (clearly). And that is one of the reasons we have an imam to keep us from getting caught in the interpretations that held merit in different periods of time. I doubt most people would disagree with the general statements I'm making, but just in case; look at the numerous terrorist organizations that give this fearful view of Islam to the world, all based upon a more black & white view of the Quran. And the same goes with the farman's Mowlana Hazir Imam writes.

Having said that, I feel homosexuals do have a right to be and the right to get married to each other. In the western world at least, most of the stigma is gone removing the fear of being gay because for so long people deemed (and still do obviously) that being gay is wrong and bad. Marriage has evolved from a transfer of property and polygamy to beautiful union of 2 soul mates who found each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. And it is our soul that is a part of Allah and is completely spiritual and therefore holds no gender, so why must we keep 2 people apart from loving each other. Think about how many Bollywood movies are about conquering that separation.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:14 pm

qifar wrote:
The Farman is Dar - es - Salaam 1957 - your children or grandchildren may go for a picnic on the moon or venus.
Does this mean that if you're children or grandchildren do not go to the moon or venus for a picnic (they likely won't, a human hasn't been back to the moon since the Apollo days and Venus is no place for a human) you faith will be shattered? Mine won't because I interpenetrate these words and the words of the Quran in their time and place they were made.

If creation is infinite and constantly expanding, how can all of the answers and properties of the universe exist in a single text compiled 1400 years ago?

And I am still waiting for one of you Quranic scholars to describe the role of mast cells in autoimmune demyelinating encephalitis to me, since all of the scientific data I have collected means nothing when you can reference the Quran. I guess it a lot more difficult to find a Quranic reference before someone has done all of the legwork and made the discovery.

Tell me a scientific fact that is currently unknown from the Quran, please, or make a prediction based on it. If you can't you have no business calling it a scientific text.

-qifar

Ame diwas kahiye to diwas ane ame raat kahiye to raat.
MSMS.

The Imam in Shia Nizari Ismaili is Rasikun F'il Ilm (Kmaherali - correction needed her) - Imamin Mubeen - the holder of the knowledge and authority of everything in the universe.

I would also tell you that reexamine your baiyah - if you are an ismaili that is..you have pledged everything to the Imam....you can not question the Imam.
If the Imam says..you will got Venus/Moon for a picnic..then we will go to venus or the moon.

He is the IMAM..not just a leader.

Shams

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:50 pm

Shams, these farmans were written in a certain time, and you have to be aware of what the society was in that time. And I believe that farman was given around 1957 and during that time there was a space race between the soviets and US and the gist I think he was getting across is that times are changing and we're making progress in science and technology, we're half a century ahead of when that farman was given, you can't seriously take that statement by its purely literal meaning. The Imam does not identify himself as infallible to the world. I can't think of any instances where he has taken a strong political stand on a world issue, but rather, he's building bridges with people, accepting people of all walks of life. And it's evidence like that, which would never have me question the faith of another murid like Qifar as he is following Hazir Imam, the way he builds bridges with others who are different. I am deeply saddened that you would accuse someone of not having faith over debate, which clearly has no concrete answer because this debate would be over.

As to your argument about science, MHI has never quarreled with science and the material world except when he says to remember the esoteric part of life and leave the physical world at the door when you pray and go to khane. Science is science and religion is religion, and one can't dominate over the other because they cover 2 different aspects of our life.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:56 pm

a1337 wrote:Shams, these farmans were written in a certain time, and you have to be aware of what the society was in that time. And I believe that farman was given around 1957 and during that time there was a space race between the soviets and US and the gist I think he was getting across is that times are changing and we're making progress in science and technology, we're half a century ahead of when that farman was given, you can't seriously take that statement by its purely literal meaning. The Imam does not identify himself as infallible to the world. I can't think of any instances where he has taken a strong political stand on a world issue, but rather, he's building bridges with people, accepting people of all walks of life. And it's evidence like that, which would never have me question the faith of another murid like Qifar as he is following Hazir Imam, the way he builds bridges with others who are different. I am deeply saddened that you would accuse someone of not having faith over debate, which clearly has no concrete answer because this debate would be over.

As to your argument about science, MHI has never quarreled with science and the material world except when he says to remember the esoteric part of life and leave the physical world at the door when you pray and go to khane. Science is science and religion is religion, and one can't dominate over the other because they cover 2 different aspects of our life.

Islam is a way of life.
There is no separation in Islam - it encompasses all.
We have to balance din and duniya.
As a Shia Imami Ismaili - I believe one of the requirements is that you need to take an oath of allegiance to the IMAM of the time - if the Imam were to state at noon that it is midnight..we accept no questions asked - because as per Hafiz - quoted by MSMS in a BUK farman - You know not what your mursheed does.

Shams

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:33 am

But the Imam isn't stating those things directly and he isn't saying the Quran should be held for SCIENTIFIC merit, it holds religious merit obviously but it is not a tool for science and I challenge you to find instances where Mowla has said the in terms of science Quran>education or as Qifar said, use the Quran to make a scientific discovery that doesn't exist. There's a reason MHI constantly tells students to get an education and work hard and LEARN in schools and universities. He doesn't say you don't need school because you have the Quran.

I'm assuming you're running out of reasons to disagree with the main thread as you're picking random tangents out of context to disprove my arguments and fail to get to the bedrock of the debate. You have every right to have an opinion on this and any issue, however, it seems contradictory to accuse others of being unfaithful or sinful while making statements that only Allah will judge us after death.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:41 am

a1337 wrote:As to your argument about science, MHI has never quarreled with science and the material world except when he says to remember the esoteric part of life and leave the physical world at the door when you pray and go to khane. Science is science and religion is religion, and one can't dominate over the other because they cover 2 different aspects of our life.

"In the concept of Islam, Allah is eternal, His creation knows no limit in time, nor in form and as a result He creates when He will, when He wishes, when He wills, how he wishes, where He wishes and man's perception of science is therefore nothing more than the perception of God's creation, His continuous creation, and there is no conflict between Islam and science but at the same time do not make the mistake of becoming vain and proud, simply because technology surrounds you. On the contrary, those who are most qualified in scientific subjects today are often the most humble and the most convinced in their attitude to the existence of Allah and therefore as you prepare for the future, do not shun the technological era, but do not make the mistake of thinking that, that era is the creation of man." (Silver Jubilee Mulaqat, NewYork, June 14th, 1983)

As per the above Farman, there is no dichotomy between science and faith in Islam. Science is an endevour to understand Allah's creation and hence it becomes part of one's faith. How you conduct your scientific inquiries and how you use the understanding gained thus, would be an aspect of faith. One would not use scientific knowledge for destructive purposes for example.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:48 am

ShamsB wrote:The Imam in Shia Nizari Ismaili is Rasikun F'il Ilm (Kmaherali - correction needed her) - Imamin Mubeen - the holder of the knowledge and authority of everything in the universe.

I am not sure what correction you are asking for. Yes the Imams are Rasikhun fi ilm.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:57 am

kmaherali wrote:
ShamsB wrote:The Imam in Shia Nizari Ismaili is Rasikun F'il Ilm (Kmaherali - correction needed her) - Imamin Mubeen - the holder of the knowledge and authority of everything in the universe.
I am not sure what correction you are asking for. Yes the Imams are Rasikhun fi ilm.

that's what i was looking for...
Thanks Karim.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:08 am

a1337 wrote:But the Imam isn't stating those things directly and he isn't saying the Quran should be held for SCIENTIFIC merit, it holds religious merit obviously but it is not a tool for science and I challenge you to find instances where Mowla has said the in terms of science Quran>education or as Qifar said, use the Quran to make a scientific discovery that doesn't exist. There's a reason MHI constantly tells students to get an education and work hard and LEARN in schools and universities. He doesn't say you don't need school because you have the Quran.

I'm assuming you're running out of reasons to disagree with the main thread as you're picking random tangents out of context to disprove my arguments and fail to get to the bedrock of the debate. You have every right to have an opinion on this and any issue, however, it seems contradictory to accuse others of being unfaithful or sinful while making statements that only Allah will judge us after death.

He's not saying that we shouldn't either.
I am not running out of reasons to disagree..
I am saying i am okay agreeing to disagree incase you haven't noticed.
my faith allows you to have your viewpoint and live with it...seems you're the one being a little dogmatic in not allowing us to have our viewpoint.

If you read the posts - the arguments made are:

religion and science are separate - in Islam - they're not. - (farman quoted by Kmaherali)

context of Imam's farmans and farmans in general - role of imam;
in ismailism - Imam is the sole authority of everything...part of our dua..part of our ba'yah - context of farmans - Hazar Imam takes farmans out of circulation when they become out of context with time...he's not done that to a lot of farmans referred to..however
A1337 took the whole reference out of context - the context was the quran being scientific and matching that to the farman of the imam..not in terms of homosexuality.

Going to the faith argument...Qifar is placing his intellect over that of the Imam...thus negating the need for the Imam in his quest...i.e. he ceases to be an ismaili - because in order to be an ismaili..we give the imam precedence over all else;..The Imam is All Knowing..Omnipotent..and in some interpretations..the Imam is Allah...however Qifar has said..that seat is in his intellect..not with the Imam.

Once again..please reread what i have written..to me...the action is a sin..just like any other action such as alcohol, smoking, lying, hurting someone intentionally..etc...and each one of us commits many sins a day..we are no one to judge.
However..that is my view...and i am entitled to my view as others are to theirs..
however...as per the farmans and the memoirs..our faith is our faith..it is not one of convenience but one of conviction - you can either remain within it and follow it's tenets or you can leave it - but you can not change it from within.

to me my faith - to you yours..what you do in your bedrooms and in your house is your business and your cross to bear - I will not treat someone differently based on their sexual preferences.

Shams

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:13 am

Thanks for your post, however you did not address any point I brought up in the defense of homosexual relations. I'll overview what you said.

YaAliYaMowla wrote:It really is a shame when people begin to think that their minds create rather than having been created. The Imam's word stands above EVERYTHING, if He says look to Quran, it means look to the Quran, if He gives a farman or a speech saying something is wrong, that means it is wrong. Yes, we must use our intellect, but as my intellect will say one thing and others' will say other things, the absolute truth that we can have the utmost confidence in is the word of the Imam. The abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom (Hazar Imam, 2008) - There is no plagiarism on this one unless you want me to list out the full reference........

Yes, you are definitely correct, the only thing that can be completely trusted is the Imam. But intellect itself can be trusted to a large degree, would you honestly disagree with that? You're on a computer, after all. And the logic that was used by Nasir-i Khusraw was certainly not logic developed by Muslims, it was developed by Greeks. These Greeks got pretty close to the truth it seems, since very little needed to be adapted to Islam. And I don't doubt the Imam said the abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom, how would that be controversial to me?

This world contains inequality, there is no debate about that. People are born in the poorest of circumstances. Babies are born and sold off as children. Some become disabled very early in their life. Arguments have been made that personality factors are not necessarily developed through nature, but some are innate to individuals. Follow the leadership literature (whether leaders are born with certain characteristics) as an example. These personality factors may heavily influence one's loyalty, individualism, etc. which can in turn influence his/her religious values.

You're unfortunately using an illogical argument. We never ask people without legs to walk, or the poor to buy things they couldn't afford ever, however in this case we're asking individuals who are not sexually attracted to the opposite gender (and even disgusted by the opposite gender) to procreate.

Secondly, you mention that individuals have various traits they should overcome. While this is true, it is also a fallacious argument: it is medically healthy for one to get over many factors in life that stunts their relationship with others, for example, poor innate social skills or lack of leadership skills. This is considered healthy in the medical establishment. Sexuality is not considered in the same realm as arrogance or poor social skills, and in addition, it is considered something that is extremely unhealthy to subdue. Once again, these are the findings of the very same medical institutions that you trust your and the health and lives of your loved ones.

Similarly, people may be born homosexual (there is still a lot of debate on this even in science so lets not pass this off as fact). Homosexuality is wrong through our religious teachings that come from the Quran, Hadiths, and through strong implications in Hazar Imam's speeches. This is similar to how drinking is wrong, gambling is wrong, etc. If you follow the 84 lakhs notion, then this may be a punishment for his/her previous life. To persevere beyond this and stay true to the teachings of the Imam and the Quran is what will help him/her pass the test.

It is a fact, please show me anyone in the medical establishment who disagrees for scientific reasons that homosexuality can be safely ignored or changed, I'd like to read it, and it'd be wonderful for this topic to see. I have a feeling if you do produce anything, it will not be hosted on a medical website, but rather a Christian, Muslim, or other religious or polemic website.

The issue of someone being "born" a homosexual or having homosexual "genetics", is not necessarily correct, however that does not mean homosexuality is a choice as the medical establishment notes.

I have stated clearly in my posts that the homosexuality that is referred to in the Qur'an is of a different nature, clearly going into the Qur'an and the Ismaili viewpoint on the Qur'an. I'd suggest you re-read my post and try to refute those arguments, and then I can go into more detail about them. And the issue of reincarnation itself is very muddy in Ismailism, ask your Nasiriyya friends about that. Many Khoja and non-Khoja Ismaili take reincarnation to be figurative, the bettering of oneself, rather than literal reincarnation. We have an interesting topic on ismaili.net about it, I suggest you take a look at it.

To someone who challenged one of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's quote in the memoirs about raising a family by raising the question about those women or men who cannot have children for whatever reason. I am glad you did this, because for me, this quote I believe is targeted at homosexuality. Hazrat Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah was well beyond any of us in this world, lets please not pretend otherwise, and He knew about the women/men who may be unable to for certain reasons associated with disability. However, homosexuals do not have as legitimate of an excuse. "Severely condemned" are the words He used, no fabrication on this quote right?

You simply state that you believe this is targeted at homosexuality and provide no evidence, contrary to evidence I've provided in my previous posts. I also went into the issue of homosexuals possibly being able to procreate soon, and the wonderful effects adoption has on society. There is nothing about "pretending otherwise", you have to prove it means what you say, and you can't unless you can read Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's mind, I doubt you will be able to.

A poster following the Nasir Khusraw tradition intentionally or unintentionally tried to create a gap between the satpanth and the Nasir Khusraw tradition.

I believe it was Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah who claimed the Khojas had little faith, and praised his murid elsewhere. Not me. There is a gap between the Satpanth and Nasiriyya traditions, however neither is false, both are correct, and both have important facets the other doesn't. The Satpanthi, unless they read outside of Satpanthi literature, do not know the application of Platonic logic within the Ismaili framework.

Firstly, ask most of your friends from Central Asia what they think about homosexuality. You're the first that defends it among the many many that I know.

How many of them are familiar with the writings of Nasir-i Khusraw? Ismailism is not a democracy, not only are most Central Asians extremely unfamiliar with his writings, even if they all are, they need to be able to apply that knowledge and prove homosexuality is incorrect. I'm giving you that opportunity now, but you haven't refuted what I've said in previous posts.

Secondly, above Nasir Khusraw, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for as he was a hujjat and a master of many disciplines, the Imams have also taught and explained to us to use our intellect, time and time again (and we are indebted to the Imams for taking us to such high levels as a result). Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali to Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah lived with the followers of the Satpanth tradition much more recently than Nasir Khusraw lived with the central asian jamat. Please don't speak to us about using our intellect.

As I stated before, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah expressed dissatisfaction with the Khoja community on several points. No, I am not using that against you, I clearly stated in my post both traditions of Ismailism (as well as the other traditions) are integral to the complete faith expression. Arguing, "The Imam has been with us more recently," is not only a poor argument, but while the Satpanth tradition was heavily influenced by outside sources because of the need for taqiyya (which resulted in large Satpanth populations converting to different faiths or not accepting the Imam), the Ismaili of Afghanistan have been openly Ismaili for centuries, and after the destruction of Alamut, many Iranian Ismaili went to the community in Afghanistan.

As for logic, logic is not simply 1 + 1 = 2. Logic is understanding historical exegesis, understanding the logical (not spiritual) nature of God, and so forth. Outside of those familiar with the Nasiriyya tradition, the Sanpanthi Ginans do not go into the application of logic within the Ismaili framework. This is something that is exclusively handled (contemporary at least) in the Nasiriyya tradition.

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:15 am

I'll admit it sounds like I am proposing a segregation between science and religion, and honestly, it is necessary when tradition supersedes the scientific method. Faith is personal and therefore full of personal bias, which is why it sometimes has to be put aside in the pursuit of knowledge, just knowledge, finding out the truth has no destructive purpose, what people do with what they do and don't know however has caused so many violations of humanity. We see what we want to see in the Quran and farmans; and when we associate scientific discoveries as prophecy from the Quran, we (1) presume it to be infallible and if we find out what we know is wrong science is suddenly challenging religion and (2) if a change does finally get accepted, all of a sudden there's a passage that seems similar and therefore that becomes infallible. Many philosophers can agree upon is that the only thing we know for certain is that we know nothing for certain. And it's true, all scientific discoveries are theories, the only one who is infallible is Allah, and since he's not beaming a direct message to us individually, everything we know about Islam is based upon interpretation. The idea of taking limits in calculus was opposed by the church because the scientific discoveries that it would lead to opposed to ideas that the sun revolved around Earth and other now seemingly moronic issues. We have to hold our faith tight, but we can't use faith to hold us back because that's how backward cultures are formed.

To add on to what you said about science not being used for destructive purposes, I assume you'd agree that faith also shouldn't cause destruction amongst the community, yet this urge to shun homosexuals is a clear sign of destruction and I don't believe there's a farman by MHI that mentions that clearly states being a homosexual is wrong. Being a homosexual isn't a choice but being Ismaili is, so why are you (Shams and Kid) trying to give homosexuals the impression that their choice of faith will turn their backs on them over something in their genes.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:03 am

a1337 wrote:
To add on to what you said about science not being used for destructive purposes, I assume you'd agree that faith also shouldn't cause destruction amongst the community, yet this urge to shun homosexuals is a clear sign of destruction and I don't believe there's a farman by MHI that mentions that clearly states being a homosexual is wrong. Being a homosexual isn't a choice but being Ismaili is, so why are you (Shams and Kid) trying to give homosexuals the impression that their choice of faith will turn their backs on them over something in their genes.

When did i say that?...I have said..my faith is my faith..yours is yours..you practice yours..i practice mine.
I think it's a sin..why does my opinion matter? it shouldn't to you...

In regards to the Farman issue..let's put the shoe on the other foot now...

Show me a farman where MHI states having gay sex is kosher...
Hazar Imam has made many farmans about keeping to the faith and traditions of our forefathers (london 1978/Canada recently)...and how our tradition is one that spans centuries...
There are farmans cautioning us on the social ills around us, and how we need to keep our values and our traditions....

Hazar Imam also in Dar es Salaam in the GJ Darbar stressed the importance of the Quran....the different interpretations..which means we are to look to the Quran for our answers..
You may choose not to do so..that is your choice..
The story of Lot - has been pointed out a number of times..this is not just from the Bible..but the Quran - Allah's word wherein Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for their debauchery.

however just because you are "liberated" from your culture and heritage it doesn't mean that the rest of us have to agree...
you are free to believe and practice what you want...however just because you believe and practice something..doesn't mean it should become the motto for the rest of us..that's all I am saying..
to you - your faith..to me mine....

I never said being a homosexual is a choice.
i am refering to the action of sex...between a man and a man and a woman and a woman..which has been forbidden in the Quran (read other posts for references please) we have been given aql and choice..we need to exercise those.

We now live in a society which is filled with pedophiles - who also have predispositions as well as folks that practice bestiality - using your logic...they should all be free to do as they please?
How about hedonism? and swinging? where do we draw the line?

Seems that you are being selective in picking out points in people's posts without actually understanding what folks are writing.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:06 am

a1337 wrote:I'll admit it sounds like I am proposing a segregation between science and religion, and honestly, it is necessary when tradition supersedes the scientific method. Faith is personal and therefore full of personal bias, which is why it sometimes has to be put aside in the pursuit of knowledge, just knowledge, finding out the truth has no destructive purpose, what people do with what they do and don't know however has caused so many violations of humanity. We see what we want to see in the Quran and farmans; and when we associate scientific discoveries as prophecy from the Quran, we (1) presume it to be infallible and if we find out what we know is wrong science is suddenly challenging religion and (2) if a change does finally get accepted, all of a sudden there's a passage that seems similar and therefore that becomes infallible. Many philosophers can agree upon is that the only thing we know for certain is that we know nothing for certain. And it's true, all scientific discoveries are theories, the only one who is infallible is Allah, and since he's not beaming a direct message to us individually, everything we know about Islam is based upon interpretation. The idea of taking limits in calculus was opposed by the church because the scientific discoveries that it would lead to opposed to ideas that the sun revolved around Earth and other now seemingly moronic issues. We have to hold our faith tight, but we can't use faith to hold us back because that's how backward cultures are formed.

To add on to what you said about science not being used for destructive purposes, I assume you'd agree that faith also shouldn't cause destruction amongst the community, yet this urge to shun homosexuals is a clear sign of destruction and I don't believe there's a farman by MHI that mentions that clearly states being a homosexual is wrong. Being a homosexual isn't a choice but being Ismaili is, so why are you (Shams and Kid) trying to give homosexuals the impression that their choice of faith will turn their backs on them over something in their genes.

Um....
in regards to Allah beaming a direct message - for folks that have the notion of Ali-Allah - the Noor of Imamah (Ali) is one and the same as the Noor of Allah..
And I am not the one using the faith for destruction..i have always stated..to you yours..to me mine...

Shams

YaAliYaMowla · Post by **YaAliYaMowla** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:10 am

enzuru wrote:Thanks for your post, however you did not address any point I brought up in the defense of homosexual relations. I'll overview what you said.

YaAliYaMowla wrote:It really is a shame when people begin to think that their minds create rather than having been created. The Imam's word stands above EVERYTHING, if He says look to Quran, it means look to the Quran, if He gives a farman or a speech saying something is wrong, that means it is wrong. Yes, we must use our intellect, but as my intellect will say one thing and others' will say other things, the absolute truth that we can have the utmost confidence in is the word of the Imam. The abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom (Hazar Imam, 2008) - There is no plagiarism on this one unless you want me to list out the full reference........
Yes, you are definitely correct, the only thing that can be completely trusted is the Imam. But intellect itself can be trusted to a large degree, would you honestly disagree with that? You're on a computer, after all. And the logic that was used by Nasir-i Khusraw was certainly not logic developed by Muslims, it was developed by Greeks. These Greeks got pretty close to the truth it seems, since very little needed to be adapted to Islam. And I don't doubt the Imam said the abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom, how would that be controversial to me?

This world contains inequality, there is no debate about that. People are born in the poorest of circumstances. Babies are born and sold off as children. Some become disabled very early in their life. Arguments have been made that personality factors are not necessarily developed through nature, but some are innate to individuals. Follow the leadership literature (whether leaders are born with certain characteristics) as an example. These personality factors may heavily influence one's loyalty, individualism, etc. which can in turn influence his/her religious values.
You're unfortunately using an illogical argument. We never ask people without legs to walk, or the poor to buy things they couldn't afford ever, however in this case we're asking individuals who are not sexually attracted to the opposite gender (and even disgusted by the opposite gender) to procreate.

Secondly, you mention that individuals have various traits they should overcome. While this is true, it is also a fallacious argument: it is medically healthy for one to get over many factors in life that stunts their relationship with others, for example, poor innate social skills or lack of leadership skills. This is considered healthy in the medical establishment. Sexuality is not considered in the same realm as arrogance or poor social skills, and in addition, it is considered something that is extremely unhealthy to subdue. Once again, these are the findings of the very same medical institutions that you trust your and the health and lives of your loved ones.

Similarly, people may be born homosexual (there is still a lot of debate on this even in science so lets not pass this off as fact). Homosexuality is wrong through our religious teachings that come from the Quran, Hadiths, and through strong implications in Hazar Imam's speeches. This is similar to how drinking is wrong, gambling is wrong, etc. If you follow the 84 lakhs notion, then this may be a punishment for his/her previous life. To persevere beyond this and stay true to the teachings of the Imam and the Quran is what will help him/her pass the test.
It is a fact, please show me anyone in the medical establishment who disagrees for scientific reasons that homosexuality can be safely ignored or changed, I'd like to read it, and it'd be wonderful for this topic to see. I have a feeling if you do produce anything, it will not be hosted on a medical website, but rather a Christian, Muslim, or other religious or polemic website.

The issue of someone being "born" a homosexual or having homosexual "genetics", is not necessarily correct, however that does not mean homosexuality is a choice as the medical establishment notes.

I have stated clearly in my posts that the homosexuality that is referred to in the Qur'an is of a different nature, clearly going into the Qur'an and the Ismaili viewpoint on the Qur'an. I'd suggest you re-read my post and try to refute those arguments, and then I can go into more detail about them. And the issue of reincarnation itself is very muddy in Ismailism, ask your Nasiriyya friends about that. Many Khoja and non-Khoja Ismaili take reincarnation to be figurative, the bettering of oneself, rather than literal reincarnation. We have an interesting topic on ismaili.net about it, I suggest you take a look at it.

To someone who challenged one of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's quote in the memoirs about raising a family by raising the question about those women or men who cannot have children for whatever reason. I am glad you did this, because for me, this quote I believe is targeted at homosexuality. Hazrat Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah was well beyond any of us in this world, lets please not pretend otherwise, and He knew about the women/men who may be unable to for certain reasons associated with disability. However, homosexuals do not have as legitimate of an excuse. "Severely condemned" are the words He used, no fabrication on this quote right?
You simply state that you believe this is targeted at homosexuality and provide no evidence, contrary to evidence I've provided in my previous posts. I also went into the issue of homosexuals possibly being able to procreate soon, and the wonderful effects adoption has on society. There is nothing about "pretending otherwise", you have to prove it means what you say, and you can't unless you can read Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's mind, I doubt you will be able to.

A poster following the Nasir Khusraw tradition intentionally or unintentionally tried to create a gap between the satpanth and the Nasir Khusraw tradition.
I believe it was Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah who claimed the Khojas had little faith, and praised his murid elsewhere. Not me. There is a gap between the Satpanth and Nasiriyya traditions, however neither is false, both are correct, and both have important facets the other doesn't. The Satpanthi, unless they read outside of Satpanthi literature, do not know the application of Platonic logic within the Ismaili framework.

Firstly, ask most of your friends from Central Asia what they think about homosexuality. You're the first that defends it among the many many that I know.
How many of them are familiar with the writings of Nasir-i Khusraw? Ismailism is not a democracy, not only are most Central Asians extremely unfamiliar with his writings, even if they all are, they need to be able to apply that knowledge and prove homosexuality is incorrect. I'm giving you that opportunity now, but you haven't refuted what I've said in previous posts.

Secondly, above Nasir Khusraw, who I have a tremendous amount of respect for as he was a hujjat and a master of many disciplines, the Imams have also taught and explained to us to use our intellect, time and time again (and we are indebted to the Imams for taking us to such high levels as a result). Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali to Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah lived with the followers of the Satpanth tradition much more recently than Nasir Khusraw lived with the central asian jamat. Please don't speak to us about using our intellect.
As I stated before, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah expressed dissatisfaction with the Khoja community on several points. No, I am not using that against you, I clearly stated in my post both traditions of Ismailism (as well as the other traditions) are integral to the complete faith expression. Arguing, "The Imam has been with us more recently," is not only a poor argument, but while the Satpanth tradition was heavily influenced by outside sources because of the need for taqiyya (which resulted in large Satpanth populations converting to different faiths or not accepting the Imam), the Ismaili of Afghanistan have been openly Ismaili for centuries, and after the destruction of Alamut, many Iranian Ismaili went to the community in Afghanistan.

As for logic, logic is not simply 1 + 1 = 2. Logic is understanding historical exegesis, understanding the logical (not spiritual) nature of God, and so forth. Outside of those familiar with the Nasiriyya tradition, the Sanpanthi Ginans do not go into the application of logic within the Ismaili framework. This is something that is exclusively handled (contemporary at least) in the Nasiriyya tradition.

Your argument that people being born in less favorable circumstances than others is a false analogy is correct. Of course its a false analogy, but before you think that this answers the question, think about it. I am talking about the concept of people being born in different circumstances, some less favorable than others. In that sense, the essence is the same. Persevering beyond that and staying true to our tariqah (eg. not engaging in homosexual acts) is what will help them persevere and pass the tests.

Actually I have asked my friends from central asia about their belief in reincarnation and not only did they say that there are poems from their tradition (Rumi) that confirm this, but unlike your argument, they also cited ISMS repeatedly mentioning 84 lakhs in farmans. I suggest you look over some of the farmans of the Imams before saying its only correct according to one culture.

If you have proper imaan, anything can be overcome, even sexual relationships. The one thing you can look to overcome any difficulties or obstacles is your faith. To dispute this is to argue with the Imam. I will trust the Imam over medical institutions every day of the week.

Heres a link to your article:
http://www.narth.com/docs/innate.html

And note, I have never been firm on whether homosexuals are gay by nature or not, I really dont care, its a sin either way to give in to the tendencies.

Yes, you have clearly tried to distinguish the population of gays as they were back during that time. Please read the quotes of the Quran more carefully. It says to other "men instead of women", nothing about children. There is also a hadith that I believe was brought up here, where the Prophet said that both the people engaging in the homosexual act should be killed. We can argue about fabrication of hadiths, but nevertheless the Quran is clear in noting other "men".

As to proving what ISMS said, when something is black and white you will argue its allegorical, and when something is allegorical you are asking for something that's black and white. Confirmatory bias I guess, you will only confirm and believe what you are already biased in believing.

Some satpanthi Ismailis yes practiced taqiyya but you are exaggerating this way too much. For the most part, taqiyya has not been practiced by the satpanthi Ismailis and definitely less so than the central asian jamat in the recent past. You are thinking about the gupti Ismailis, they comprise a small portion of our jamat. My point was, as you seem to enjoy ignoring the essence of my argument, that the Imams, particularly ISMS most recently has taught us how to apply logic, and this has been the teachings of the Imams since day one above anyone else. I am not talking about what was taught to my great grandfathers x 20. It really is a shame that you are using the teachings of Nasir Khusraw to justify homosexuality. Even if you do advocate homosexuality, using the names of one of our great hujjats to justify a sin I would be very cautious of. Please have at least that amount of respect for him.

Lastly, and as much as I respect your ability to write well, I feel that your bias in this topic has put a veil over your use of logic, just my opinion, so there is no sense of me continuing on with this debate with you. I would like to say though that I have the utmost respect and admiration for every culture within the Ismaili tariqah. I in no way meant to discredit any tariqah within Ismailism and was only defending the satpanthi tradition, which was being very inaccurately portrayed. I have learned a lot from my Ismaili friends from Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, and others, and I always try my best never to distinguish between us because we all look to the teachings of the Imam and should follow His guidance and words no matter what He says.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:45 am

I think the science on the relationship between genetics and behaviors is not crystallized yet. It is still tentative and evolving and there are many grey areas. For example there are environmental factors besides genes which contribute to certain behaviors. There is an interesting article posted at the Science and Faith topic titled Luxurious Growth which discusses this and it can be accessed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 4&start=75

These are not redundant articles based on ill-informed opinions, but are articles written based on expert opinion and published in very well reputed scientific journals and newspapers.

I think in the interim while science clarifies itself on this issue, it would be wise to get clues from our time tested wisdom traditions. If as it has been suggested that homosexuality is an inherent genetic tendency, then one may ask why this hasn’t been acknowledged in the Sharias instituted by the Prophets. In our tradition we consider the Prophet as the Manifest Light and the bearer of the Noor. He would have been aware of this behavior and would have established/instituted traditions to accommodate and regulate it.

Also we may ask: Why is homosexuality highlighted more in the Western societies? Is it the permissiveness and freedom? If the tendency is universal why is it not highlighted in other parts of the world. In our community we seldom heard about it until very recently!

The Holy Quran is not an irrelevant piece of literature; else MHI would not place great importance to its study. As MSMS says in his memoir, it has guided Muslims for centuries:

“Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding.”

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:55 am

a1337 wrote: To add on to what you said about science not being used for destructive purposes, I assume you'd agree that faith also shouldn't cause destruction amongst the community, yet this urge to shun homosexuals is a clear sign of destruction and I don't believe there's a farman by MHI that mentions that clearly states being a homosexual is wrong. Being a homosexual isn't a choice but being Ismaili is, so why are you (Shams and Kid) trying to give homosexuals the impression that their choice of faith will turn their backs on them over something in their genes.

I would argue that to acknowldege and legitimize a behaviour which is still not yet clearly understood can cause social upheaval and instability. If the science is still not sure about it, then it would be irresponsible to legitimize it. We need not shun homosexuals, as much as we do not shun alcoholics or prostitutes.

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:05 pm

First off, I'd like to apologize if it sounded like I was disrespecting you. I felt in your post you were implying that I am some blind-minded liberal fanatic that does not want to use my logic (just my preconceived notions), but I can't really blame you since I made you sounded the same in my prior posts. Let's agree we are both using logic (Platonic or not) and are not tying ourselves to preconceived notions. I will give you the benefit of the doubt (which I should have done in the first place) and I would appreciate the same as well. We are both murids of the Imam, and we are discussing an area that may not be exactly clear (hence the topics that appear on this forum about this issue).

Your argument that people being born in less favorable circumstances than others is a false analogy is correct. Of course its a false analogy, but before you think that this answers the question, think about it. I am talking about the concept of people being born in different circumstances, some less favorable than others. In that sense, the essence is the same. Persevering beyond that and staying true to our tariqah (eg. not engaging in homosexual acts) is what will help them persevere and pass the tests.

You have yet to prove engaging homosexuality is against the tariqah! I am fine with persevering against difficulty, but you are obliged to prove this is forbidden in the first place. As shariah states, all is halaal until specified as haraam, and even though we're not following shariah in a way, it would seem the same could be applied here.

As far as perceiving and passing tests, one could say adhere to a strict form of shariah which certainly is a test, but does it achieve anything? Is it required? That is the essence of the question. I could try very hard to push a large rock a mile forward and then a mile back, and while it was hard work, it didn't necessarily achieve anything or have any intrinsic value.

Actually I have asked my friends from central asia about their belief in reincarnation and not only did they say that there are poems from their tradition (Rumi) that confirm this, but unlike your argument, they also cited ISMS repeatedly mentioning 84 lakhs in farmans. I suggest you look over some of the farmans of the Imams before saying its only correct according to one culture.

The Ismaili from these areas would not necessarily have a different viewpoint from the Sunni or Twelvers who read Rumi. These two groups do not believe in reincarnation (the Twelver have a concept of three or four lives, but this is completely unrelated).

Reincarnation, like wine and other figurative statements in Sufi poetry, is believed to be figurative for us becoming better people. And ironically, it was a Khoja who explained the figurative nature of reincarnation in favor of the traditional concept of a single life and death.

You later state that I am figurative when I wish and literal when I wish, but note it depends on the subject matter. I generally apply historical figurative themes to Sufi poetry while applying textual context and strict interpretation to the Qur'an.

If you have proper imaan, anything can be overcome, even sexual relationships. The one thing you can look to overcome any difficulties or obstacles is your faith. To dispute this is to argue with the Imam. I will trust the Imam over medical institutions every day of the week.

As I've stated in my posts, you haven't brought force any evidence showing that homosexuality is incorrect and needs to be curtailed! If the Imam clearly states something against this (and He in His knowledge certainly would understand confusion in the jamaat) we have a different story on our hands. But he never has, and that's why we're debating this. With the debate raging in the United States and the United Kingdom, it seems to be an issue worth mentioning directly. But, I should not try to second guess the Imam either.

Heres a link to your article:
http://www.narth.com/docs/innate.html

And note, I have never been firm on whether homosexuals are gay by nature or not, I really dont care, its a sin either way to give in to the tendencies

Your link doesn't go into what I asked. It is a fact that homosexuality is not biological, but that is not the argument. The argument is whether it is a choice, which no scientific institution believes.. I mentioned in my previous post that homosexuality being a choice is not limited to biology or other beliefs about how it occurs. The question is whether it is a choice.

Yes, you have clearly tried to distinguish the population of gays as they were back during that time. Please read the quotes of the Quran more carefully. It says to other "men instead of women", nothing about children. There is also a hadith that I believe was brought up here, where the Prophet said that both the people engaging in the homosexual act should be killed. We can argue about fabrication of hadiths, but nevertheless the Quran is clear in noting other "men".

Several points you missed. I'm not sure what your knowledge of Arabic is, but the Arabic in the story of Lot implies younger children, which makes sense in the historical context of Arab culture as well. And also, if you're going to bring up “men instead of women” we can note that lesbianism is left out from this verse.

You are implying a context of homosexuality (meaning all same gender relations are haraam). You are bringing in a context that cannot be inferred directly form the text, while I am solely relying on the text and not making an assumption about the meaning. This is the most conservative form of textual exegesis, similar to what is followed by the Sunni Athari school of thought, which is closely linked to the Sunni Hanbali school of law.

As to proving what ISMS said, when something is black and white you will argue its allegorical, and when something is allegorical you are asking for something that's black and white. Confirmatory bias I guess, you will only confirm and believe what you are already biased in believing.

Why do you apply that to me and not yourself? As I stated before, let's have good faith in each other, that we are doing what we believe the Imam wants.

And actually, that isn't what I do, and probably not what you do either. When one does exegesis of law or texts, one has to have a consistent framework. One of these for example is Athari, and others in Sunni Islam is Ashari and Maturidi, which to varying degrees rely on kalaam. The reason I was stressing my heritage in the Nasiriyya tradition is because it teaches us to use a logical and consistent framework in order to understand the truth. The Nasiriyya framework corresponds with the extinct Mu'tazili Sunni framework, heavily relying on Greek logic. If there is something inconsistent in my approach to the issue please point it out, it would help me in other areas of my faith.

Some satpanthi Ismailis yes practiced taqiyya but you are exaggerating this way too much. For the most part, taqiyya has not been practiced by the satpanthi Ismailis and definitely less so than the central asian jamat in the recent past. You are thinking about the gupti Ismailis, they comprise a small portion of our jamat. My point was, as you seem to enjoy ignoring the essence of my argument, that the Imams, particularly ISMS most recently has taught us how to apply logic, and this has been the teachings of the Imams since day one above anyone else. I am not talking about what was taught to my great grandfathers x 20. It really is a shame that you are using the teachings of Nasir Khusraw to justify homosexuality. Even if you do advocate homosexuality, using the names of one of our great hujjats to justify a sin I would be very cautious of. Please have at least that amount of respect for him.

This reminds me of a Sunni Muslim saying that we shouldn't used the names of the Ahl al-Bayt to promote our sick Shi'i heresy, that we should have more respect for these individuals like Sunni do, and should no disgrace them with our beliefs.

The issue when they do this is they are implying our beliefs are incorrect or filthy. I have asked you to do that to my beliefs, and you haven't, your posts keep assuming that it is obvious homosexuality is haraam, without attempting to prove it in detail.

As far as using logic according to the Imams, yes they did teach us to use logic from day one well into the Imam's arrival in India, but using a logical framework is something completely different. Other traditions do not have a consistent framework to understand the Qur'an and philosophy in.

Honestly, and as much as I respect your ability to write well, I feel that your bias in this topic has put a veil over your use of logic, just my opinion, so there is no sense of me continuing on with this debate with you. I would like to say though that I have the utmost respect and admiration for every culture within the Ismaili tariqah. I in no way meant to discredit any tariqah within Ismailism and was only defending the satpanthi tradition, which was being very inaccurately portrayed. I have learned a lot from my Ismaili friends from Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, and others, and I always try my best never to distinguish between us because we all look to the teachings of the Imam and should follow His guidance and words no matter what He says

As I stated in the beginning, I started this issue by assuming everyone who disagreed with me had preconceived notions. I won't assume that anymore, and I'd ask you to do the same with me. I have presented my arguments to you in what I believe to be a logical manner, and I just wish for you to respect that, and not assume that I have a hidden agenda or am trying to ignore the Imam's teachings. Likewise, I should and I will respect your opinion on the matter and will believe you are pursuing what you believe is correct according to the Imam, which I apologize for not doing earlier with my tone.

We'll agree to disagree, as usual.

YaAliYaMowla · Post by **YaAliYaMowla** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:18 pm

enzuru, I said I would not post on this anymore, but since you toned your rseponse down I will continue as long as I feel this is bringing about a better understanding of the issues.

GMR posted:

And Prophet Lut! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton fold: (Holy Quran 7:80-81.

Male homosexaul activities are condemned as unnatural. 26:165-6
Male homosexuals commit abominations and act senselessly. 27:54-55.
Male homosexuals acts are condemned as unnatural. 29:28-29.

My logic is this, in its most simplest form:
Imam's word is highest -> Imam says for issues that there may be confusion around look to Quran -> there is confusion surrounding homosexuality -> Look at Quran.

I am leaving out the implications I believe to be in some of the speeches/farmans that I have discussed earlier because those advocating homosexuality have insisted on ambiguity.

Quran in the references above condemn homosexuality without ambiguity. By saying "men instead of women" yes, lesbian is not explicit in there. Regardless, it shows that being gay is wrong. Your argument as I remember it was about these acts being committed to children. The Quran unambigiously illustrates the opposite. Therefore, according to shariah this is haraam.

I have heard many who try to justify drinking as ok because of "context".. that people back then would drink and then gamble their families.. similarly, this is apparently why gambling was wrong as well according to "context". Not saying that context is not important, just saying it can become heavily exaggerated and hence misleading.

Hazar Imam, unless Im missing something here, has not made farmans on murder, rape, adultery, theft, etc. In the same light, Hazar Imam has not made a farman on homosexuality. The Quran however is clear on this. If the Imams have said things like "If you believe me as God, then I am your God", and ginans have been sung in front of Imam which say "Allah eh hi Imam", then would the Imam be scared of saying homosexuality is ok? Especially considering that some Ismailis have suffered because of it by the jamat.

Here are my major issues and please correct me if I'm wrong:
1) You discredit the Quran and ignore it, while others have posted speeches, farmans, quranic passages, hadiths, etc to argue against homosexuality, no one has been able to support homosexuality using any evidence from our tarikah.
2) You use Nasir Khusraw and his teaching to justify homosexuality. Please think through this. Its nothing to do with me being like a sunni. If I believed that gambling or drinking moderately is ok, because I know its contentious and I could be wrong, I would NEVER use the name of the Imam Mustaqarr or Imam Mustawda or a hujjat to justify it. This has nothing to do with me being like a sunni.
3) Your argument against reincarnation discredits Imam Mustawda who have always been a critical part of our religion from the day of creation. You have shown an understanding of some aspects of our tarikah in your post, surely you understand the role and importance of the Imam Mustawda.