Christianity
Christianity
Hi ya'll. I know that as Ismailies, we believe that Christianity is a religion of the book, and that Jesus was not the son of Christ, but a Prophet instead. However, what do we believe about Jesus's death? Do we believe that he died on the cross and that he will be resurrected? Will Prophet Mohammed be resurrected? I have a friend who's a very devout Christian, and she and I talk about this a lot and often share our own beliefs on ethical issues- we were planning on going to watch the movie "Passion of Christ" with Mel Gibson this weekend- the movie has to do with Jesus's death...do ya'll think i'm contradicting my own beliefs by going to see this movie, or by learning more about Christianity? I don't really feel like I'm doing anything wrong, but I guess I just needed a second opinion..hope ya'll can help! Thanks. =)
Its just a movie
Its just a movie. Have fun hope you enjoy it.
even the christians believe that christ is the path to God.
One of the name our Imam is also called is "Isa-e-zaman" meaning jesus of the time.
The Bible states in the begining there was a word. The word was with God, the word was God.
Our Ginans say "Aad thaki ek sun nipaya, sun mathi shabd nipaya" meaning from aad (before time) nothingness came into being and from that nothingness came a word.
What most christians dont know is what that word was. As Ismailies we are the only ones who are given the Ismae-Azam (Supreme word) by our Imam.
Most of the world is busy worshipping dead people or their graves. Ismailies are the only ones who are blessed with a continuous shower of blessings from the Source of all existance, through time, for centuries.
And as far as Prophet Mohamed is concerned what do you think Hazir Imam in his Pir Joma is?
It is the Noor of Prophet Mohammed.
You see nargis this entire world and most of our Ismailies are focussed on the physical body.
Our faith is ruhani meaning spiritual and everything spiritual exists above this world.
That which is above this world is impossible to articulate into this worldly language of words and letters.
Christianity worships the body hence when they think of any other faith they look at it from their own perspective hence questions about resurrection of Prophet Mohammed arise. Prophet Mohammed had Mairaj which is itself meeting with the creator. once you meet the creator you become eternal and hence resurrection is not even an issue.
Resurrection applies to those who are dead. The Noor of Prophet Mohammed is alive and will forever live in the Imam of the time.
Now if you try to explain this concept to anyone else it will be extremely hard. People who have no idea about the eternal how wiill they ever understand the concept of Noor of Imamat and Noor of Nabuwat.
One time Imam SMS declared in a conference of Islamic scholars that he was "Khalifatullah and Khalifatul Rasulillah" not one person objected to that declaration.
Hope you enjoy the movie and share with us what you learned.
Shams
even the christians believe that christ is the path to God.
One of the name our Imam is also called is "Isa-e-zaman" meaning jesus of the time.
The Bible states in the begining there was a word. The word was with God, the word was God.
Our Ginans say "Aad thaki ek sun nipaya, sun mathi shabd nipaya" meaning from aad (before time) nothingness came into being and from that nothingness came a word.
What most christians dont know is what that word was. As Ismailies we are the only ones who are given the Ismae-Azam (Supreme word) by our Imam.
Most of the world is busy worshipping dead people or their graves. Ismailies are the only ones who are blessed with a continuous shower of blessings from the Source of all existance, through time, for centuries.
And as far as Prophet Mohamed is concerned what do you think Hazir Imam in his Pir Joma is?
It is the Noor of Prophet Mohammed.
You see nargis this entire world and most of our Ismailies are focussed on the physical body.
Our faith is ruhani meaning spiritual and everything spiritual exists above this world.
That which is above this world is impossible to articulate into this worldly language of words and letters.
Christianity worships the body hence when they think of any other faith they look at it from their own perspective hence questions about resurrection of Prophet Mohammed arise. Prophet Mohammed had Mairaj which is itself meeting with the creator. once you meet the creator you become eternal and hence resurrection is not even an issue.
Resurrection applies to those who are dead. The Noor of Prophet Mohammed is alive and will forever live in the Imam of the time.
Now if you try to explain this concept to anyone else it will be extremely hard. People who have no idea about the eternal how wiill they ever understand the concept of Noor of Imamat and Noor of Nabuwat.
One time Imam SMS declared in a conference of Islamic scholars that he was "Khalifatullah and Khalifatul Rasulillah" not one person objected to that declaration.
Hope you enjoy the movie and share with us what you learned.
Shams
Re: Its just a movie
Shams that was very well explained! You have cleared some questions
that I had in my mind about Christanity.
Am I correct in understanding that ismailis dont have to read Quran because we have Boltu Quran which is Mowla Bapa and he guides us accordingly. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks Shams and Keep up the good work and may God Bless you. Ameen
that I had in my mind about Christanity.
Am I correct in understanding that ismailis dont have to read Quran because we have Boltu Quran which is Mowla Bapa and he guides us accordingly. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks Shams and Keep up the good work and may God Bless you. Ameen
Re: Its just a movie
Jasmine, I just posted an article on the "Relevance of the Quran" under Alwaez Kamaluddin and Ginans in the Ginans Section. You may want to read it.jasmine wrote:Am I correct in understanding that ismailis dont have to read Quran because we have Boltu Quran which is Mowla Bapa and he guides us accordingly. Correct me if I am wrong.
Resurrection of Christ
I would just like to share my thoughts on this subject.
There is a great deal of controversy as to whether it did take place. There are conflicting theories. The question is whether this is believable or not within our faith. Certainly it is. In the Ginan "Janat-Puree" by Sayyed Imam Shah which can be referenced in the Ginan Section, there is an incident whereby Peer Hasan Kabirdeen resurrected himself to satisfy Sayyed Imam Shah. If Peer Hassan Kabirdeen could resurrect himself then it is possible that Jesus could have resurrected himself. After all, they are the same light i.e. Nur-e Nabuwwah. The issue is not whether it happened but rather so what if it did happen. Unlike the Christians we do not base our faith on that incident. Our resurrection is about merging with the Noor of Allah.
It is possible for elevated souls to die at will and to revive themselves. Parahansa Yogananda who was a great Indian yogi and who spread the teachings of Kriya Yoga in the West in the early twentieth century, describes in his autobiography the resurrection of his master Swami Sri Yukteswar. It is a very interesting account. Swami Yogananda himself died at will. He knew when he would go and died in "Mahasamadhi" (Great Peace in meditation).
These incidences certainly allude to the higher possibilities of elevated human souls and certainly they inspire quest for a higher life. But they should not form the basis of faith.
There is a great deal of controversy as to whether it did take place. There are conflicting theories. The question is whether this is believable or not within our faith. Certainly it is. In the Ginan "Janat-Puree" by Sayyed Imam Shah which can be referenced in the Ginan Section, there is an incident whereby Peer Hasan Kabirdeen resurrected himself to satisfy Sayyed Imam Shah. If Peer Hassan Kabirdeen could resurrect himself then it is possible that Jesus could have resurrected himself. After all, they are the same light i.e. Nur-e Nabuwwah. The issue is not whether it happened but rather so what if it did happen. Unlike the Christians we do not base our faith on that incident. Our resurrection is about merging with the Noor of Allah.
It is possible for elevated souls to die at will and to revive themselves. Parahansa Yogananda who was a great Indian yogi and who spread the teachings of Kriya Yoga in the West in the early twentieth century, describes in his autobiography the resurrection of his master Swami Sri Yukteswar. It is a very interesting account. Swami Yogananda himself died at will. He knew when he would go and died in "Mahasamadhi" (Great Peace in meditation).
These incidences certainly allude to the higher possibilities of elevated human souls and certainly they inspire quest for a higher life. But they should not form the basis of faith.
TV Documentary on Jesus and Paul
There is an interesting TV documentary to be aired tomorrow at 9.00pm on ABC tiltled: "Jesus and Paul: The Word and the Witness". The following is the preview of the program from Calgary Herald. It sounds interesting and very important in the context pluralism.
Jennings explores how Christianity survived thanks to Paul
David Bauder
The Associated Press
Sunday, April 04, 2004
Bringing a reporter's eye to biblical stories is Peter Jennings' passion.
ABC is taking the extraordinary step of devoting all three hours of prime time Monday to Jennings' latest religious saga, Jesus and Paul: The Word and the Witness.
Jennings said the special's timing and content was locked in before Mel Gibson's film The Passion of The Christ became a huge success.
Still, the movie can't help but affect how the ABC show is perceived, and may bring in more viewers.
"In the wake of The Passion, which created such intensity, we bring some further education to the debate that people are having," he said.
Jennings saw Gibson's movie, but declines to give his opinion of it.
The ABC project is essentially the sequel to In Search of Jesus, the 2000 special on Jesus Christ's life that finished third in the week's television rankings, an unusually potent performance for a documentary.
Jennings immediately asked to examine Paul, who did more than anyone to spread Jesus's message to a non-Jewish world.
"Paul is a wonderful story, just a wonderfully interesting story, and a story very relevant to today," Jennings said. "So much of what we're debating in the country today -- marriage, sex, religiosity, the role of women -- was precisely what was going on in Paul's day."
During the documentary, set to a contemporary soundtrack with the likes of Joan Osborne, R.E.M. and Curtis Mayfield, Jennings tries to describe what life and politics were like in Jesus's time.
The special is careful to note the several areas where scholars disagree, particularly about Christ's resurrection. Many believe literally in everything written in the Bible, while others believe the Resurrection was metaphorical.
Something must have happened, otherwise it's hard to explain how Jesus's story has endured so long, Jennings said.
Jennings discovers three different tourist traps that claim to be where Paul allegedly saw the spirit of Jesus and began preaching his message.
It also details how Christianity spread in large part because Paul said followers did not have to follow Jewish laws -- meaning men did not have to be circumcised.
The letters Paul wrote play a prominent role in church services today. The ABC documentary helps bring some of the letters that churchgoers take for granted to life.
"If you just accepted only the Bible, you would not be doing a reporter's job, which is why you have to look at Roman history and Jewish history that was outside of the gospels," Jennings said.
"Which is why Paul in many ways is such a fascinating story, because he left this extraordinary paper trail," he said.
Jennings said he hopes viewers realize through the documentary how it's unlikely that the movement Jesus founded would have survived beyond the first century if it weren't for Paul.
© The Calgary Herald 2004
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Jennings explores how Christianity survived thanks to Paul
David Bauder
The Associated Press
Sunday, April 04, 2004
Bringing a reporter's eye to biblical stories is Peter Jennings' passion.
ABC is taking the extraordinary step of devoting all three hours of prime time Monday to Jennings' latest religious saga, Jesus and Paul: The Word and the Witness.
Jennings said the special's timing and content was locked in before Mel Gibson's film The Passion of The Christ became a huge success.
Still, the movie can't help but affect how the ABC show is perceived, and may bring in more viewers.
"In the wake of The Passion, which created such intensity, we bring some further education to the debate that people are having," he said.
Jennings saw Gibson's movie, but declines to give his opinion of it.
The ABC project is essentially the sequel to In Search of Jesus, the 2000 special on Jesus Christ's life that finished third in the week's television rankings, an unusually potent performance for a documentary.
Jennings immediately asked to examine Paul, who did more than anyone to spread Jesus's message to a non-Jewish world.
"Paul is a wonderful story, just a wonderfully interesting story, and a story very relevant to today," Jennings said. "So much of what we're debating in the country today -- marriage, sex, religiosity, the role of women -- was precisely what was going on in Paul's day."
During the documentary, set to a contemporary soundtrack with the likes of Joan Osborne, R.E.M. and Curtis Mayfield, Jennings tries to describe what life and politics were like in Jesus's time.
The special is careful to note the several areas where scholars disagree, particularly about Christ's resurrection. Many believe literally in everything written in the Bible, while others believe the Resurrection was metaphorical.
Something must have happened, otherwise it's hard to explain how Jesus's story has endured so long, Jennings said.
Jennings discovers three different tourist traps that claim to be where Paul allegedly saw the spirit of Jesus and began preaching his message.
It also details how Christianity spread in large part because Paul said followers did not have to follow Jewish laws -- meaning men did not have to be circumcised.
The letters Paul wrote play a prominent role in church services today. The ABC documentary helps bring some of the letters that churchgoers take for granted to life.
"If you just accepted only the Bible, you would not be doing a reporter's job, which is why you have to look at Roman history and Jewish history that was outside of the gospels," Jennings said.
"Which is why Paul in many ways is such a fascinating story, because he left this extraordinary paper trail," he said.
Jennings said he hopes viewers realize through the documentary how it's unlikely that the movement Jesus founded would have survived beyond the first century if it weren't for Paul.
© The Calgary Herald 2004
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TV Documentary Cont.
Watching this programme will serve two purposes which resonate on the strength of pluralism.
- Give a basic understanding of the doctrines of Christianity and the controversies surrrounding them.
- Hopefully some aspects of the programme will illuminate our traditions. I cannot say at this point what they might be until I have seen the programme.
- Give a basic understanding of the doctrines of Christianity and the controversies surrrounding them.
- Hopefully some aspects of the programme will illuminate our traditions. I cannot say at this point what they might be until I have seen the programme.
Shared Values - Strength in Pluralism
The following article that appeared in today's Calgary Herald is an example of how encounters with other traditions serve to reinforce and illuminate shared principles - a strength of pluralism.
Easter reflections: Themes of sacrifice, forgiveness and resurrection touch us all
Calgary Herald
April 11, 2004
Matthew Arnold once said that "The true meaning of religion is not simply morality, but morality touched by emotion."
Recently, there has been a renewed interest in its meaning given Mel Gibson's The Passion of The Christ, which revealed that North Americans are indeed interested in and will pay to see well-crafted religious-inspired art. Such a response was assumed unlikely even at this time last year. And whether one was favourably disposed to Gibson's portrayal of Christ's suffering or not, there is no doubt he fulfilled Arnold's necessary criteria.
Thus, while it is no secret that on average Canadians and Europeans are less faithful adherents to regular religious practice than Americans, that is perhaps even a better reason this Easter to stop, to pause, and to reflect on spiritual questions and matters, a practice too easily glided over in a world of 24-hour news and seven-days a week shopping.
So consider then the deeper truths and lessons of Easter.
The theme of sacrifice was once again demonstrated just recently when a British Columbian lost his life in Iraq in his attempt to help re-build that country. Politics aside, it is our hope that his sacrifice was not in vain, and indeed we believe it was not.
In smaller ways, from courtesy to individual self-sacrifice that does not involve the loss of life, it is worth pondering where each one of us can slow down, change priorities, spend more time with family and friends, and give in a manner that enriches the lives of others; as the cliche goes -- on their deathbed, no one wishes they'd spent more time at the office.
Another Easter theme, forgiveness, is worth recalling. While Christ's example included reminding people to avoid evil -- "go and sin no more" -- mercy was always available to those who recognized their own faults and sought to mend their ways with those around them. So too, should we extend such compassion.
The theme of resurrection is also pregnant with potential in each one of our lives if we allow for it. After a winter of occasionally necessary dormancy, be it in the physical world, in our relationships, or in our souls, new life in all its beauty is always possible -- be it a delicate new flower in the Rockies in spring, life-giving care for another human being made in the image of God, or listening to the still, small voice in our own souls that calls on us to create, protect and nurture life whenever possible.
Finally, the Easter message is surely a celebration of life and joy. That, too, should always be celebrated, whether it be in the renewal of our passion for the divine, for others, for that which we create such as art, or even in appreciating the joy and smile of a child.
Happy Easter.
©
Easter reflections: Themes of sacrifice, forgiveness and resurrection touch us all
Calgary Herald
April 11, 2004
Matthew Arnold once said that "The true meaning of religion is not simply morality, but morality touched by emotion."
Recently, there has been a renewed interest in its meaning given Mel Gibson's The Passion of The Christ, which revealed that North Americans are indeed interested in and will pay to see well-crafted religious-inspired art. Such a response was assumed unlikely even at this time last year. And whether one was favourably disposed to Gibson's portrayal of Christ's suffering or not, there is no doubt he fulfilled Arnold's necessary criteria.
Thus, while it is no secret that on average Canadians and Europeans are less faithful adherents to regular religious practice than Americans, that is perhaps even a better reason this Easter to stop, to pause, and to reflect on spiritual questions and matters, a practice too easily glided over in a world of 24-hour news and seven-days a week shopping.
So consider then the deeper truths and lessons of Easter.
The theme of sacrifice was once again demonstrated just recently when a British Columbian lost his life in Iraq in his attempt to help re-build that country. Politics aside, it is our hope that his sacrifice was not in vain, and indeed we believe it was not.
In smaller ways, from courtesy to individual self-sacrifice that does not involve the loss of life, it is worth pondering where each one of us can slow down, change priorities, spend more time with family and friends, and give in a manner that enriches the lives of others; as the cliche goes -- on their deathbed, no one wishes they'd spent more time at the office.
Another Easter theme, forgiveness, is worth recalling. While Christ's example included reminding people to avoid evil -- "go and sin no more" -- mercy was always available to those who recognized their own faults and sought to mend their ways with those around them. So too, should we extend such compassion.
The theme of resurrection is also pregnant with potential in each one of our lives if we allow for it. After a winter of occasionally necessary dormancy, be it in the physical world, in our relationships, or in our souls, new life in all its beauty is always possible -- be it a delicate new flower in the Rockies in spring, life-giving care for another human being made in the image of God, or listening to the still, small voice in our own souls that calls on us to create, protect and nurture life whenever possible.
Finally, the Easter message is surely a celebration of life and joy. That, too, should always be celebrated, whether it be in the renewal of our passion for the divine, for others, for that which we create such as art, or even in appreciating the joy and smile of a child.
Happy Easter.
©
The Truth
Ya Aly Madad jasmin,
I am sorry I missed your post until today.
You want the truth?
Can you handle the truth?
If you can read on.
That which every one calls a Quran is not THE Quran. What we have today is a compilation of quranic ayats made by a human being named Usman many years after the prophets death.
Imam SMS in his Farmans has referred to this as "Usman ni Kitab"
In my opinion Quran is the experience of a momin reading (understanding) the truth from inside his heart. This has been mentioned in our ginans.
The book that has all the Quranic Ayats is called Kitabullah and this is in the possession of Imam-e-Zaman. In his Farmans Imam SMS has explained how Mowla Aly went to the muslim leaders with Kitabullah and asked them to take it but they refused saying Usmans book was enough for them. Even our current Imam refers to reading "parts of the Quran" that are relevant to our interpretation of the faith.
Imam SMS has made Farmans where he has elaborated the types of changes that were done to the Quran by Usman.
There are Farmans that specifically say the the Quran was for the arabic people and for you (us khojas) Pir Sadardeen has composed ginans that have the spiritual esscence of the quran in them. Imam SMS had challenged Ismailies that if they could get 10 people whom know the ginans and the Quran He (Imam SMS) will provide proof that every line of the ginans is from the Quran.
Allah in the Quran has himself stated that he has provided guidance in their own language to all people. Now why would he do that if what he wanted was for people to learn a foreign language (Arabic) or read translations of it in your own language.
The guidance is all around us, most of all in our hearts as our inner voice.
Mowla Aly has stated "Between you and spirituality is a veil of heedlessness"
Instead of running after a book compiled by Usman in a foreign language I think it is better to look inside first and pay heed to Allah when he talks to you in your heart. I think that Farman Bardari is better than anything else.
"vaasal hove jaat haqme/usme (I am not sure which), assal apne ko pave" kalame Mowla I think
I am sorry if I have offended anyone with my rant here.
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
I am sorry I missed your post until today.
You want the truth?
Can you handle the truth?
If you can read on.
That which every one calls a Quran is not THE Quran. What we have today is a compilation of quranic ayats made by a human being named Usman many years after the prophets death.
Imam SMS in his Farmans has referred to this as "Usman ni Kitab"
In my opinion Quran is the experience of a momin reading (understanding) the truth from inside his heart. This has been mentioned in our ginans.
The book that has all the Quranic Ayats is called Kitabullah and this is in the possession of Imam-e-Zaman. In his Farmans Imam SMS has explained how Mowla Aly went to the muslim leaders with Kitabullah and asked them to take it but they refused saying Usmans book was enough for them. Even our current Imam refers to reading "parts of the Quran" that are relevant to our interpretation of the faith.
Imam SMS has made Farmans where he has elaborated the types of changes that were done to the Quran by Usman.
There are Farmans that specifically say the the Quran was for the arabic people and for you (us khojas) Pir Sadardeen has composed ginans that have the spiritual esscence of the quran in them. Imam SMS had challenged Ismailies that if they could get 10 people whom know the ginans and the Quran He (Imam SMS) will provide proof that every line of the ginans is from the Quran.
Allah in the Quran has himself stated that he has provided guidance in their own language to all people. Now why would he do that if what he wanted was for people to learn a foreign language (Arabic) or read translations of it in your own language.
The guidance is all around us, most of all in our hearts as our inner voice.
Mowla Aly has stated "Between you and spirituality is a veil of heedlessness"
Instead of running after a book compiled by Usman in a foreign language I think it is better to look inside first and pay heed to Allah when he talks to you in your heart. I think that Farman Bardari is better than anything else.
"vaasal hove jaat haqme/usme (I am not sure which), assal apne ko pave" kalame Mowla I think
I am sorry if I have offended anyone with my rant here.
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
This may be the only time I agree with shamsu
Here is some food for thought... the word "YAA SHA'H" is also a Hebrew word meaning to save or The Savior...
YAM,
<P>As we already know Chirtainity is o­ne of the major monotheastic faiths in the world along with Judism and Islam. What we do know based o­n the Holy Qyran is that Jesus was not crusified and the Quran totally denies the whole incident. There are three ways of looking at this so called "sacrifice" of Jesus. o­ne way is through the eyes of the Jews. Crusifiction was a punishment which was given to thise who were of very low status and who were bad criminals. So according to the Jews since Jesus was crucified that totally denies the fact that he was a phrophet. Christians believe that when Jesus was crusified, he washed away the sins of all man-kind. Where as Islam says that Allah would not allow something that cruel to come of his phrophet. So in return to your question, as muslims, we do not believe that Jesus was crusified o­n the cross. This is the muslim interpretation. </P>
<P>As we already know Chirtainity is o­ne of the major monotheastic faiths in the world along with Judism and Islam. What we do know based o­n the Holy Qyran is that Jesus was not crusified and the Quran totally denies the whole incident. There are three ways of looking at this so called "sacrifice" of Jesus. o­ne way is through the eyes of the Jews. Crusifiction was a punishment which was given to thise who were of very low status and who were bad criminals. So according to the Jews since Jesus was crucified that totally denies the fact that he was a phrophet. Christians believe that when Jesus was crusified, he washed away the sins of all man-kind. Where as Islam says that Allah would not allow something that cruel to come of his phrophet. So in return to your question, as muslims, we do not believe that Jesus was crusified o­n the cross. This is the muslim interpretation. </P>
YAM,
<P>As we already know Chirtainity is o­ne of the major monotheastic faiths in the world along with Judism and Islam. What we do know based o­n the Holy Qyran is that Jesus was not crusified and the Quran totally denies the whole incident. There are three ways of looking at this so called "sacrifice" of Jesus. o­ne way is through the eyes of the Jews. Crusifiction was a punishment which was given to thise who were of very low status and who were bad criminals. So according to the Jews since Jesus was crucified that totally denies the fact that he was a phrophet. Christians believe that when Jesus was crusified, he washed away the sins of all man-kind. Where as Islam says that Allah would not allow something that cruel to come of his phrophet. So in return to your question, as muslims, we do not believe that Jesus was crusified o­n the cross. This is the muslim interpretation. </P>
<P>As we already know Chirtainity is o­ne of the major monotheastic faiths in the world along with Judism and Islam. What we do know based o­n the Holy Qyran is that Jesus was not crusified and the Quran totally denies the whole incident. There are three ways of looking at this so called "sacrifice" of Jesus. o­ne way is through the eyes of the Jews. Crusifiction was a punishment which was given to thise who were of very low status and who were bad criminals. So according to the Jews since Jesus was crucified that totally denies the fact that he was a phrophet. Christians believe that when Jesus was crusified, he washed away the sins of all man-kind. Where as Islam says that Allah would not allow something that cruel to come of his phrophet. So in return to your question, as muslims, we do not believe that Jesus was crusified o­n the cross. This is the muslim interpretation. </P>
What sacrifice?
Ya Aly Madad everyone,
A friend who calls himself Giant Paw had explained this to me
It is clearly stated in the Quran and I believe the Bible that when Abraham tried to make a human sacrifice of his son God did not accept it but an animal was accepted.
This in history was the time when God refused to accept human sacrifice.
Since then there has not been any incidence of human sacrifice being accepted by God.
This christian theory can thus be proven to have a hollow foundation.
I bet none of you thought of this before.
SHAMS
A friend who calls himself Giant Paw had explained this to me
It is clearly stated in the Quran and I believe the Bible that when Abraham tried to make a human sacrifice of his son God did not accept it but an animal was accepted.
This in history was the time when God refused to accept human sacrifice.
Since then there has not been any incidence of human sacrifice being accepted by God.
This christian theory can thus be proven to have a hollow foundation.
I bet none of you thought of this before.
SHAMS
How can we be sure Jesus was crucified ? From the Nag Hamadi Library of early christian manuscripts [the 51 volunes have been translated into French by Laval Univ. - I read those many years ago], I think we can safetly conclude that Jesus was not on the cross but rather his brother was on the cross to allow Jesus to get away safetly.
This was done with the complicity of Judah who showed to the Roman the brother of Jesus instead of Jesus. The Roman had not seen Jesus and I guess they believed the plot. So contrary to the Christian belief, Judah was not a treator, I think he was as good as the 11 other apostles. After they took the brother off the cross, the other disciples made sure the body was to disappear so no one recognised the switch.
This will explain a lot of think such as:
1) The person on the cross said "Elie Elie Lama Sabakhtani - God, why have you forsaken me?" Surprising statement from a peacefull and good person like Jesus..
2) Peter said when the so called Jesus with his cross came near him that he did not know that person. In fact how could he lie, he knew very well that the person was not Jesus..
3) The fact that the mother was crying: normal because it was her other son on the Cross. The Nag Hamadi manuscript describe the family of Jesus, even his wife and kids, they give the names of Jesus' brothers. The "Paulian Christianity" that we know today is very far historically of what really happened.
As it was done for the Quran, there was also an attempt to destroy all of the gospels, including those written during Jesus' time. [Some people hide whatever they could for posterity to find them].
Now, for Quran also, all of the copies were ordered to be burned so only Usman's compilation would stay but other copies will be found.. in fact one different copy was found in Yemen and photos taken to Germany.. Also in Bhankipore - INdia, they found some of the missing Surats, including the Surat al Nurayan, [the Surat of the 2 lights - piratan and Imamat]. More will be found as the world becomes open and the Intellectual tradition once again become part of the Muslim world.
This was done with the complicity of Judah who showed to the Roman the brother of Jesus instead of Jesus. The Roman had not seen Jesus and I guess they believed the plot. So contrary to the Christian belief, Judah was not a treator, I think he was as good as the 11 other apostles. After they took the brother off the cross, the other disciples made sure the body was to disappear so no one recognised the switch.
This will explain a lot of think such as:
1) The person on the cross said "Elie Elie Lama Sabakhtani - God, why have you forsaken me?" Surprising statement from a peacefull and good person like Jesus..
2) Peter said when the so called Jesus with his cross came near him that he did not know that person. In fact how could he lie, he knew very well that the person was not Jesus..
3) The fact that the mother was crying: normal because it was her other son on the Cross. The Nag Hamadi manuscript describe the family of Jesus, even his wife and kids, they give the names of Jesus' brothers. The "Paulian Christianity" that we know today is very far historically of what really happened.
As it was done for the Quran, there was also an attempt to destroy all of the gospels, including those written during Jesus' time. [Some people hide whatever they could for posterity to find them].
Now, for Quran also, all of the copies were ordered to be burned so only Usman's compilation would stay but other copies will be found.. in fact one different copy was found in Yemen and photos taken to Germany.. Also in Bhankipore - INdia, they found some of the missing Surats, including the Surat al Nurayan, [the Surat of the 2 lights - piratan and Imamat]. More will be found as the world becomes open and the Intellectual tradition once again become part of the Muslim world.
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star_munir
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"Elie Elie Lama Sabakhtani - Elie, why have you forsaken me?"
This verse was spoken by Hazrat Essa [Jesus] and Elie here means Ali who was with every prophet according to Farman and Hadith.
There is one Ginan about Jesus and full story is told in it. I forgot Ginan I have heard some verses of it some times before. If any one knows than share it. Hope than every thing will be clarified.
This verse was spoken by Hazrat Essa [Jesus] and Elie here means Ali who was with every prophet according to Farman and Hadith.
There is one Ginan about Jesus and full story is told in it. I forgot Ginan I have heard some verses of it some times before. If any one knows than share it. Hope than every thing will be clarified.
Historicity of Crucification.
History is always subject to interpretation. It involves an element of the faith or the beliefs of the person interpreting it. The question is not whether the incident ever took place, the evidence of which is fraught with inconsistencies and controversies, but rather if it is believable at all and what is its significance.
Our history is replete with examples of sacrifice for the cause of truth or for the sake of Allah. Imam Husein's martyrdom is a prime example. The issue is what is the significance of these events in terms of our world view, futility of excessive materialism, possibilities and potential of the elevated soul to overcome and endure any material affliction in happiness. Indeed the prophets of Allah being the paragons of purity and elevation have endured the most hardships even involving the ultimate sacrifice of their lives to teach humanity about the futility of this life and the greatness of the hereafter.
What we must learn from these incidences is that an enlightened or an elevated soul can endure any affliction without being affected and that we must strive to enrich our inner lives through Ibaadat to build that shield.
In the Ginan Kalpat Jalpat, Peer Hasan Kabirdeen says:
“Nisi jal hove to kuchh kaar na aave” meaning: If you are pure as water, you will not be affected by vagaries and vicissitudes of time.
Our history is replete with examples of sacrifice for the cause of truth or for the sake of Allah. Imam Husein's martyrdom is a prime example. The issue is what is the significance of these events in terms of our world view, futility of excessive materialism, possibilities and potential of the elevated soul to overcome and endure any material affliction in happiness. Indeed the prophets of Allah being the paragons of purity and elevation have endured the most hardships even involving the ultimate sacrifice of their lives to teach humanity about the futility of this life and the greatness of the hereafter.
What we must learn from these incidences is that an enlightened or an elevated soul can endure any affliction without being affected and that we must strive to enrich our inner lives through Ibaadat to build that shield.
In the Ginan Kalpat Jalpat, Peer Hasan Kabirdeen says:
“Nisi jal hove to kuchh kaar na aave” meaning: If you are pure as water, you will not be affected by vagaries and vicissitudes of time.
This is strictially my opinion but, yes history has proven that Judus who betrayed Jesus did look a lot like him. Jesus himself knew that Judus would betray as he told the other 11 desiples of him at the last dinner. He said one amongst you will betray me and then he turned and looked to Judus. Judus then ran out of the room and the other 11 deciples could not believe it. Like I mentioned earlier, Allah would not let his Phrophet suffer such disgraceful puncishment. So, histoians belive that it was Judus who was cursified on the cross not Jesus.
Just my opinion, if you would like to repond please PM me or Email
Just my opinion, if you would like to repond please PM me or Email
chistianity
Ya Ali Madad to All,
When we talk about Jesus, we are discussing a controversal issue, because Christains believe he was the son of God and Muslims believe in the oneness of God. Let us discuss with farmans of Imam e Zaman, Sultan Mohd. Shah. In His farmans Mowla says that Isa Haqiqati hatao te khuda ma fana theo which means that Jesus was pure and he became one with pure. According to the farmans these four people--Jesus, Mohammed, Mansur, and Pir Shams (peace be upon them) are all from haqiqat, which implies that they are not human beings like us. They came directly from God to teach and guide the human race. Just on a side note Mowlana Rumi , Salman Farsi, Pir Sadarddin, Pir Nasir Khusraw and Wazir Saleh were five people who were human beings like us and were able to reach oneness with God. So it is important for us to realize that Jesus was Nur like the others mentioned, but was not the son of God. I think this will help clarify the concept of Jesus. Farmans come directly from Mowla, so there are no mistakes or different version like other sacred texts like the Bible and the Quran. That is we Ismailis believe in.
May Mowla bless you all and give you a deeper understanding of Ismaili teachings.
When we talk about Jesus, we are discussing a controversal issue, because Christains believe he was the son of God and Muslims believe in the oneness of God. Let us discuss with farmans of Imam e Zaman, Sultan Mohd. Shah. In His farmans Mowla says that Isa Haqiqati hatao te khuda ma fana theo which means that Jesus was pure and he became one with pure. According to the farmans these four people--Jesus, Mohammed, Mansur, and Pir Shams (peace be upon them) are all from haqiqat, which implies that they are not human beings like us. They came directly from God to teach and guide the human race. Just on a side note Mowlana Rumi , Salman Farsi, Pir Sadarddin, Pir Nasir Khusraw and Wazir Saleh were five people who were human beings like us and were able to reach oneness with God. So it is important for us to realize that Jesus was Nur like the others mentioned, but was not the son of God. I think this will help clarify the concept of Jesus. Farmans come directly from Mowla, so there are no mistakes or different version like other sacred texts like the Bible and the Quran. That is we Ismailis believe in.
May Mowla bless you all and give you a deeper understanding of Ismaili teachings.
Son of God
YAM Everyone,
When Jesus referred to his father I believe he mean his spiritual father The Imam of that time.
Just like MHI blesses us with paternal and maternal blessings which makes him our spiritual father and mother (Shah and Pir).
Imam SMS has called our deen haqiqati.
Isa was haqiqati which means to me that he existed in a spiritual realm at all times. So when he said father he meant spiritual father.
YAM
SHAMS
When Jesus referred to his father I believe he mean his spiritual father The Imam of that time.
Just like MHI blesses us with paternal and maternal blessings which makes him our spiritual father and mother (Shah and Pir).
Imam SMS has called our deen haqiqati.
Isa was haqiqati which means to me that he existed in a spiritual realm at all times. So when he said father he meant spiritual father.
YAM
SHAMS
The Holy Quran totally REJECTS the idea that Jesus was crusifed on the cross. We Muslims and EVEN Ismaili's belive that Allah would not let his Phrophet suffer such a horrible punishment and would save him. All Phrophets of God were chosen souls. All Pirs were chosen souls who were sent upon this Earth to help us in our spiritual journey. Adam,Noah, Amraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all from Allah. So we Muslims do not except the fact that Jesus was crusifed on the cross. Like I mentioned in my earlyer reply it was Judus who was crusified on the cross instead of Jesus. If you say that Jesus was crusified on the cross then I belive that you also should except the idea of the Holy Trinity, which being a Muslim you can not do because then you are beliving in someone other then Allah. Just my views and ideas. I will post the Quranic Iyat later on about the Quran rejeting the fact that Jesus was crusified on the cross.
Are you saying that Prophets and Imams should not suffer physically and that that kind of suffering is only for human beings? I think that is a totally wrong understanding of esotericism and elevation of the soul. The prophets and Imams endure the most hardships and even sacrifice their lives for survival of the fundamental principles and values that sustain creation. To the elevated souls this body and the world is nothing in comparison to the sea of divinity that they enjoy continuously. As I mentioned in my earlier post, our history is replete with examples of martyrdom and sacrifice. Many of our Imams were murdered and often ruthlessly. Do you think that the Imams and the Prophets do not have the capacity to avoid or overcome these tragedies. Offcourse they do. They can turn the world upside down if they choose to.aminL wrote:The Holy Quran totally REJECTS the idea that Jesus was crusifed on the cross. We Muslims and EVEN Ismaili's belive that Allah would not let his Phrophet suffer such a horrible punishment and would save him. All Phrophets of God were chosen souls. All Pirs were chosen souls who were sent upon this Earth to help us in our spiritual journey. Adam,Noah, Amraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all from Allah.
I am not saying that Jesus was actually crucified. However this event is believable to Ismailis. I do not see this as any different than the martyrdom of Imam Husein at Karbala. Or the martyrdom of Mansur who had his limbs severed.
These Haqiqati elevated souls teach humanity that you scarifice your life but do not compromise your values and principles and they set examples about that.
The other message that comes out is that elevated souls are beyond pain and suffering. They are not affected by physical atrocities at all. I think MHI mentions this in his Firmans of BUK that you will be able to overcome any material difficulty through this light. Being an elevated soul does not absolve one from engaging and suffering in this world. They also go through physical hardships. The difference is that they are not affected by these hardships. Thats why MHI tells us to strengthen our Batini lives because through stronger Batini lives we will be able to surmount any worldy difficulty.
here is the ayat from the Quran where ALLAH tells us that Jesus was not crusified.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not (Sura An-Nisa; 4:157)
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise (Sura An-Nia; 4:158)
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not (Sura An-Nisa; 4:157)
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise (Sura An-Nia; 4:158)
Christianity
Christianity can be condensed into four words: Admit, Submit, Commit and Transmit.
-Samuel Wilberforce
Is this really different than Islam?
-Samuel Wilberforce
Is this really different than Islam?
The following is my interpretation of the above two ayats. The fact that it is mentioned: "but so it was made to appear to them" implies there was an appearance of this fact. Many Christian mystics have had visions of the crucification of Isa Nabi. So I believe that this event did take place.aminL wrote:here is the ayat from the Quran where ALLAH tells us that Jesus was not crusified.
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not (Sura An-Nisa; 4:157)
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise (Sura An-Nia; 4:158)
However, the second verse states that Isa Nabi was really united with God. According to our Ginans, there is no death for such a soul anymore, i.e. it is immortal beyond death. In Ginan "Kal Pat Jal Pat" Peer Hassan Kabirdeen says: " Nisi jal hove ta kuchh kaal na aave" - meaning: If one has attained purity (through enlightenment), he/she is not affected by time or death.
Hence in reality he was not crucified or killed, rather, that event was a means towards his ultimate unity with God.
Humor And The Scriptures
This is not a joke! The following is the article that appeared in today's Calgary Herald about scholars discussing humour in the Bible.
Scholars mine Bible for hidden punchlines
The Associated Press
February 15, 2005
Humour in the Bible? Scholars say the Old and New Testaments are riddled with humorous references and aim to set the record straight at a three-day congress beginning Monday, called Laughter and Comedy in Ancient Christianity.
There's the tale from Luke's Gospel of Zaccheus, a diminutive and despised tax collector who, eager to see Jesus at a busy gathering, is forced into the attention-grabbing indignity of scrambling up a tree.
Or the patriarch Isaac, whose name comes from the Hebrew word for laughter because of the joy and disbelief his birth brought to his aging parents, Abraham and Sarah.
These witticisms may not have modern readers rolling on the floor. But scholars of Christian literature and theology at the congress in Turin insist the Bible is full of jokes and clever wordplay. They hope to show that humour, far from being considered sinful, had an important place in early Christianity and in the Bible itself, said Clementina Mazzucco, a professor of Ancient Christian Literature at Turin University.
"There is a prejudice that states that humour and Christianity are incompatible," Mazzucco said in a telephone interview. "On the contrary, there are many episodes and dialogues in the Scriptures where irony and sarcasm are being used."
© The Calgary Herald 2005
Scholars mine Bible for hidden punchlines
The Associated Press
February 15, 2005
Humour in the Bible? Scholars say the Old and New Testaments are riddled with humorous references and aim to set the record straight at a three-day congress beginning Monday, called Laughter and Comedy in Ancient Christianity.
There's the tale from Luke's Gospel of Zaccheus, a diminutive and despised tax collector who, eager to see Jesus at a busy gathering, is forced into the attention-grabbing indignity of scrambling up a tree.
Or the patriarch Isaac, whose name comes from the Hebrew word for laughter because of the joy and disbelief his birth brought to his aging parents, Abraham and Sarah.
These witticisms may not have modern readers rolling on the floor. But scholars of Christian literature and theology at the congress in Turin insist the Bible is full of jokes and clever wordplay. They hope to show that humour, far from being considered sinful, had an important place in early Christianity and in the Bible itself, said Clementina Mazzucco, a professor of Ancient Christian Literature at Turin University.
"There is a prejudice that states that humour and Christianity are incompatible," Mazzucco said in a telephone interview. "On the contrary, there are many episodes and dialogues in the Scriptures where irony and sarcasm are being used."
© The Calgary Herald 2005