hi i m a new member here
i want to ask a question is that there are some people here in khi who preach ismailism in their home or we can say personally but they aren't prescribed by the tariqa board or the council and from imam i m not saying that they are wrong they teach ismailism better they don't go in against so is it corrected to go at their homes....................remember one thing they are against but ........aren't prescribed by the tariqa board .....
so wat we should do.???????????
teaching of ismailism personally
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alinizar313
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Re: teaching of ismailism personally
What we are doing here is the same thing and ITREB is not happy as this site is not authorized as said by them because it is not patronized by ITREB. What ITREB has to do, we are doing that (i,e we are imparting knowledge to others ) and this is the greatest SEWA. As far as the incident which you mentioned here is concerned, I personally was of the view that they are not doing nice work and they might misguide the Jamat. Then I personally went there in Karachi at that place and I amazed to see that they were doing a great great sewa to Ismaili Jamat. Now I will tell you what they do there. They just interpret the firmans, Kalam-e-Mowla by getting the answer from other firmans and Ginans. They said answer the questions only from Firman and ginan. I personally request you to go there so that you youself see what is going on there.gr8_d wrote:hi i m a new member here
i want to ask a question is that there are some people here in khi who preach ismailism in their home or we can say personally but they aren't prescribed by the tariqa board or the council and from imam i m not saying that they are wrong they teach ismailism better they don't go in against so is it corrected to go at their homes....................remember one thing they are against but ........aren't prescribed by the tariqa board .....
so wat we should do.???????????
It really regret that we talk of worldly matter in mehfil or Halla Gulla but if we talk something regarding sprituality we take out 'fault' or Nukhs in that. That is wrong.
Personal Search for Knowledge
YAM,
Our is a tradition of personal search. In that respect you are expected to seek knowledge and understanding from wherever it is available. Ultimately you will have to decide whether the knowledge is useful to you or not. It is very unlikely that you will get all your answers from our institutions.
Our is a tradition of personal search. In that respect you are expected to seek knowledge and understanding from wherever it is available. Ultimately you will have to decide whether the knowledge is useful to you or not. It is very unlikely that you will get all your answers from our institutions.
There is nothing wrong is sharing knowledge. Imam Ali said something like if knowledge remains hidden it is useless.
I myself hold these same sessions for the Ismaili youth, ie: university students my age and answer their questions.
I think that ITREB has too many constraints and limitations for them to engage in anything like this.
- Kha
I myself hold these same sessions for the Ismaili youth, ie: university students my age and answer their questions.
I think that ITREB has too many constraints and limitations for them to engage in anything like this.
- Kha
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star_munir
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I also agree with you all. I have seen night school books [religious center/dharmik school] They are beautiful,colourful and full of knowledge but not of ismailism of social studies,science,stories and general topics.
Do you believe the books published by IIS and tariqa board are providing enough religious knowledge to ismaili children?
Do ismaili children of todays know true concept of Imam and Pir? Many think Pir means dai or the one who compose ginans. Is there any chapter in religious center course book???
Basic concepts and about cermonies like Niyaz,sukreet etc are taught in HRE level.
So is it ok?? Is it sufficient?? Not all all. In muslim countries there is subject called Islamiat. In this subject it is taught to recite 5 times namaz, women should practise hijab or purdah??? Young ismaili children can be confused. Can he or she find out answers of this question in their religious center course book????
Many ismailis have sensitive questions but they cant find their answers in books which are full of censor. Due to this even night school teachers dont know basic concepts of ismailism.
There is one teacher of 2,3 or 4 class [girls] who says not to wear frock and wear shalwar kameez and duppatta.
There was one ismaili women who started fighting with religious center teacher in meeting that why you not say children to cover their heads with duppata. It should be noted that it was minor class 3 or 4 i.e, many small girls. IS it madarsssa???? or night school. This is all due to lack of knowledge
Well this is small issuse there are many sensitive topics and sensitive questions. Not knowing appropriate answer can create lot of problems.
So getting knowledge about Ginans,Farmans from other ismailis who are not appointed by tariqa board is not wrong but before it should be confirmed that they are giving right knowledge and not misguiding.
Do you believe the books published by IIS and tariqa board are providing enough religious knowledge to ismaili children?
Do ismaili children of todays know true concept of Imam and Pir? Many think Pir means dai or the one who compose ginans. Is there any chapter in religious center course book???
Basic concepts and about cermonies like Niyaz,sukreet etc are taught in HRE level.
So is it ok?? Is it sufficient?? Not all all. In muslim countries there is subject called Islamiat. In this subject it is taught to recite 5 times namaz, women should practise hijab or purdah??? Young ismaili children can be confused. Can he or she find out answers of this question in their religious center course book????
Many ismailis have sensitive questions but they cant find their answers in books which are full of censor. Due to this even night school teachers dont know basic concepts of ismailism.
There is one teacher of 2,3 or 4 class [girls] who says not to wear frock and wear shalwar kameez and duppatta.
There was one ismaili women who started fighting with religious center teacher in meeting that why you not say children to cover their heads with duppata. It should be noted that it was minor class 3 or 4 i.e, many small girls. IS it madarsssa???? or night school. This is all due to lack of knowledge
Well this is small issuse there are many sensitive topics and sensitive questions. Not knowing appropriate answer can create lot of problems.
So getting knowledge about Ginans,Farmans from other ismailis who are not appointed by tariqa board is not wrong but before it should be confirmed that they are giving right knowledge and not misguiding.
Honest question
I have an honest question for everyone here.
What percentage of your religious knowledge came from R.E. classes?
I think in my case less that 20%.
What percentage of your religious knowledge came from R.E. classes?
I think in my case less that 20%.
Another question
Another question.
What percentage of your religious knowledge came from Tariqa Board approved publications and lectures?
What percentage of your religious knowledge came from Tariqa Board approved publications and lectures?
Re: Another question
These are interesting and valid questions!shamsu wrote:Another question.
What percentage of your religious knowledge came from Tariqa Board approved publications and lectures?
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star_munir
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_thaillestlunatic_
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YAM everybody,
shedding some light into this issue
About 30-40 % of my religious education has come from religious classes. (Mission Class) the rest has come from
1) Missionaries/ Al Waez's
2) Almost 20 percent just from reading the topics in FIELD
3) IIS
4) Firmans
ITREB here in Toronto is very hard to work with.
we have some discussions/waezes but not enough is being taught in religious classes. Just wanted to share my views with this topic.
shedding some light into this issue
About 30-40 % of my religious education has come from religious classes. (Mission Class) the rest has come from
1) Missionaries/ Al Waez's
2) Almost 20 percent just from reading the topics in FIELD
3) IIS
4) Firmans
ITREB here in Toronto is very hard to work with.
we have some discussions/waezes but not enough is being taught in religious classes. Just wanted to share my views with this topic.
In my opinion, the basic understanding of faith that childeren should have, has to come from parents. They should teach love for prophet Muhammad (saw) and his ahlul-bait (which includes mowlana Hazir Imam) . The meaning of the Dua' , ginans and understanding of the rites and rituals in jamat khana should be taught in baitul-ilm. And NO one can teach you the high spiritual essence except Allah Him self. Your parents/teachers should encouredge you to sit in meditation and you will find out for your self who our Imam actually is.
Islam is a religion which teaches us to use our intellect. Thus in my opinion, teachers in baitul-ilm shoud do exactly that and not spoon feed every thing to chileren.
I further more believe that even as an Ismaili, one sould study the Qur'an. As I have said before, the farmans of Hazir Imam is the Qur'an, but studying the Book which Allah send down and in which one billion of our fellow Muslims seek guidence, is very important. And I think it coulden't hurt if some of the Qur'an would be taught in baitul-ilm. Baitul-ilm shoulden't, of course become a madrass, but teaching selected verses from the Qur'an which are important to us should be in the cirriculum of the baitul-ilm. They, for instance, should know from which ayat a paticular part of our du'a is from. And they should know why we interprete that part of the Qur'an the way we do.
My two cents ...
Islam is a religion which teaches us to use our intellect. Thus in my opinion, teachers in baitul-ilm shoud do exactly that and not spoon feed every thing to chileren.
I further more believe that even as an Ismaili, one sould study the Qur'an. As I have said before, the farmans of Hazir Imam is the Qur'an, but studying the Book which Allah send down and in which one billion of our fellow Muslims seek guidence, is very important. And I think it coulden't hurt if some of the Qur'an would be taught in baitul-ilm. Baitul-ilm shoulden't, of course become a madrass, but teaching selected verses from the Qur'an which are important to us should be in the cirriculum of the baitul-ilm. They, for instance, should know from which ayat a paticular part of our du'a is from. And they should know why we interprete that part of the Qur'an the way we do.
My two cents ...
Knowledge - Zaheri / Batini
In my opinion, the knowledge that we acquire outside our institutions should serve to complement the knowledge that is given formally through our institutions and not be a substitute for them. I agree with schatoor that the basic understanding about our ethics and traditions should come from family and jamati environment. There are two aspects about our faith, the Zahiri and the Batini.
The knowledge about the Zaheri aspect should come from our institutions. This would comprise of our basic theological principles viz Tawheed, Imamat, Nabuwat, Adl, Maad, understanding of our rites and ceremonies, correct interpretation of our history, introduction to devotional literature and work of art, understanding of diversity etc. Dua being our fundamental prayer that we are required to recite three times a day, provides the basis of our world view and faith. Its meaning and philosphy should be disseminated at all levels ranging from Bait-ul-ilm to waezes.
The knowledge of the Batini aspect will come by His grace through personal search and contemplation. It will involve extensive and intensive study of many sources of knowledge both from within our institutions and outside. Embarking on this quest without guidance and basic understanding of our principles can do harm especially when reading materials based on other interpretations of faith. In this respect Quranic study must be carefully guided and be based upon our own translations and interpretation.
The knowledge about the Zaheri aspect should come from our institutions. This would comprise of our basic theological principles viz Tawheed, Imamat, Nabuwat, Adl, Maad, understanding of our rites and ceremonies, correct interpretation of our history, introduction to devotional literature and work of art, understanding of diversity etc. Dua being our fundamental prayer that we are required to recite three times a day, provides the basis of our world view and faith. Its meaning and philosphy should be disseminated at all levels ranging from Bait-ul-ilm to waezes.
The knowledge of the Batini aspect will come by His grace through personal search and contemplation. It will involve extensive and intensive study of many sources of knowledge both from within our institutions and outside. Embarking on this quest without guidance and basic understanding of our principles can do harm especially when reading materials based on other interpretations of faith. In this respect Quranic study must be carefully guided and be based upon our own translations and interpretation.
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star_munir
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Dua and religious education
There was one thing about the old dua and the old ghatpat dua. Any one who knew those and understood the meaning understood Ismailism from its deepest roots to its tallest branch. Pir Sadardeen has so beautifully packaged it inside the two duas.
Todays dua also reflects the same but in arabic and it requires steady concentration and regular bandagi to be able to see in it what Pir Sadardeen has encompassed in the old dua and old ghatpat dua.
The point is that just understanding the dua and its meaning may not be enough in todays world when it was good enough in the old days. So we have to specifically prepare our kids with thorough knowledge of the batuni aspect of Ismailism. Most parents have a false sense of accomplishing the religious education by taking their kids to R.E. classes.
I still remember an incident in India when a 6-7 yr old boy asked his mother why does mukhi saheb ask dua for us to come to jamatkhana 2 times. He had no clue that there is anything like morning JK. His mother explained to him and realised how uninformed her son was about Ismailism and took a special interest in bringing him to morning khane.
Ismailies who go to JK only on fridays, their kids grow up thinking there is Niyadj every single day.
When we grew up a few decades ago this much ignorance was unimaginable, but for the youth of today it is a reality.
It seems to me almost all of us are going to require grace marks to pass the "Aakhirat ni pariksha" ( The final exam on the day of judgement).
Shams
Todays dua also reflects the same but in arabic and it requires steady concentration and regular bandagi to be able to see in it what Pir Sadardeen has encompassed in the old dua and old ghatpat dua.
The point is that just understanding the dua and its meaning may not be enough in todays world when it was good enough in the old days. So we have to specifically prepare our kids with thorough knowledge of the batuni aspect of Ismailism. Most parents have a false sense of accomplishing the religious education by taking their kids to R.E. classes.
I still remember an incident in India when a 6-7 yr old boy asked his mother why does mukhi saheb ask dua for us to come to jamatkhana 2 times. He had no clue that there is anything like morning JK. His mother explained to him and realised how uninformed her son was about Ismailism and took a special interest in bringing him to morning khane.
Ismailies who go to JK only on fridays, their kids grow up thinking there is Niyadj every single day.
When we grew up a few decades ago this much ignorance was unimaginable, but for the youth of today it is a reality.
It seems to me almost all of us are going to require grace marks to pass the "Aakhirat ni pariksha" ( The final exam on the day of judgement).
Shams
Hi ya'll..YAM. okay, as an REC teacher, I feel like it's my duty to defend the new Ta'lim curriculum. Don't get me wrong, at first, I was really upset about how none of the core Ismaili rites and rituals are taught in the book- when I questioned the principal about this, the reason they actually don't want this discussed in class is because certain things, such as rites and rituals, vary from country to country..or even state to state. The point of Ta'lim is just to shed some light on Ismaili concepts- not to go into too much detail, or history, because honestly, kids at that age are not going to retain it. When i was in REC, we focused a lot on history, and I can barely remember any of it now. The focus in today's Ta'lim is more on ethics and morals. The truth of the matter is, when a student wants to learn more about their religion, they can do that outside of class. We have other means available, such as waez's, Farmans, books, and websites such as this. Nowadays, it seems more like if we placed more emphasis on history, and other Ismaili concepts in REC, the kids would probably stop coming- I know, as sad as that sounds, students just don't really seem to care as much, especially at that age. I know when I was in REC, I was not too involved in learning about religion- it was more of a place for me to meet my friends. I actually became interested in learning once I got into college. I do agree with ya'll- I feel like kids are not as educated as they should be about their religion- but it is more of a personal search, and when a child decides he/she is ready to learn, they will then.
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_thaillestlunatic_
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teaching of ismailism personally
YAM to all
Hope everything is ok with everyone
good views and opinions nargisk3. I am a student in grade 10 and it is also sad to see that ITREB has not even implemented a circulum which focuses on rites and ceremonies. I feel myself, I have barely learned anything from rites and ceremonies from my Bait-Ul-Ilm. However, many of our students want to learn about this but also I feel that kids under the ages of grade 9 would listen to the teacher, but no information would sink in. Our cirlucilum here in Toronto is more about pluralism and dua and history. I also feel that Islam is a personal search, an intellectual faith. We cannot wait for ITREB and councils to publish everything and we must take advantage of waezes or firmans. Yesterday, I was very blessed to have a waez by Missionary Abu Aly, and it was in urdu. I grasped everything he said and it was a blessing to have such a knowledgable man like him give a waez. I feel if you want to learn about your religion you must find resources available and use them to your advantage. if its is good knowledge, midiocre or bad info you must choose wisely on what you can learn from it. Just would like to share my views
YAM
Hope everything is ok with everyone
good views and opinions nargisk3. I am a student in grade 10 and it is also sad to see that ITREB has not even implemented a circulum which focuses on rites and ceremonies. I feel myself, I have barely learned anything from rites and ceremonies from my Bait-Ul-Ilm. However, many of our students want to learn about this but also I feel that kids under the ages of grade 9 would listen to the teacher, but no information would sink in. Our cirlucilum here in Toronto is more about pluralism and dua and history. I also feel that Islam is a personal search, an intellectual faith. We cannot wait for ITREB and councils to publish everything and we must take advantage of waezes or firmans. Yesterday, I was very blessed to have a waez by Missionary Abu Aly, and it was in urdu. I grasped everything he said and it was a blessing to have such a knowledgable man like him give a waez. I feel if you want to learn about your religion you must find resources available and use them to your advantage. if its is good knowledge, midiocre or bad info you must choose wisely on what you can learn from it. Just would like to share my views
YAM
YAM,
As Webmaster and one of the admins for this section of the Forum, I can tell you that this web site would probably not have existed if me or the other volunteers of this site had no RE classical training when we were young. In fact I am sure if me and the other Umeds had followed the Talim Curric., this web site would NOT have been created 10 years ago. People think that this site is done by some youngsters of the space age. Think again, it may be the result of effort by some senior citizens
It is sad that indeed we are unable to trust our teachers with some freedom to teach Rites, rituals, ceremonies and customs and give some diversity of knowledge and thinking to our kids.
In fact we are making clones in the Bait ul ilm systems where each kids has the same basic knowledge and that is the only knowledge he will get unless he is from the very few who will search for more. There is no teachings of prayers nor religious or doctrinal elements. What is good in a system that FORBID teachers to teach Du'a and Dassond or the meaning of Imamat?
In my region, teachers have been fired for less.
Admin
As Webmaster and one of the admins for this section of the Forum, I can tell you that this web site would probably not have existed if me or the other volunteers of this site had no RE classical training when we were young. In fact I am sure if me and the other Umeds had followed the Talim Curric., this web site would NOT have been created 10 years ago. People think that this site is done by some youngsters of the space age. Think again, it may be the result of effort by some senior citizens
It is sad that indeed we are unable to trust our teachers with some freedom to teach Rites, rituals, ceremonies and customs and give some diversity of knowledge and thinking to our kids.
In fact we are making clones in the Bait ul ilm systems where each kids has the same basic knowledge and that is the only knowledge he will get unless he is from the very few who will search for more. There is no teachings of prayers nor religious or doctrinal elements. What is good in a system that FORBID teachers to teach Du'a and Dassond or the meaning of Imamat?
In my region, teachers have been fired for less.
Admin
Ya Ali, ... are you serious?! They are forbidding to teach these most fundamental principles of Ismailism?! What are we going to do, where is this going?There is no teachings of prayers nor religious or doctrinal elements. What is good in a system that FORBID teachers to teach Du'a and Dassond or the meaning of Imamat?
In my region, teachers have been fired for less.
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farhatnoorali
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Ya Ali madad
i agree with schootar and kmaherali that tariqa board is not responsible for us as our parents are.. we go to Religious education center only 3 to 4 hrs per week... our parents are responsible for our religious education. and we can get more knowledge through waeez and es[ecially by our Imam's farman and ginan.... we are never stop to read any outside books...as achieve knowledge from any where ...Ilm par kissi ki Ajaradarri nahin.... learn good things from anyone and leaves the bad ones:)
God Bless all Ameen
i agree with schootar and kmaherali that tariqa board is not responsible for us as our parents are.. we go to Religious education center only 3 to 4 hrs per week... our parents are responsible for our religious education. and we can get more knowledge through waeez and es[ecially by our Imam's farman and ginan.... we are never stop to read any outside books...as achieve knowledge from any where ...Ilm par kissi ki Ajaradarri nahin.... learn good things from anyone and leaves the bad ones:)
God Bless all Ameen
In my opinon one does NOT have to go through the council in order to teach religion. If you are a parent what are you going to do, go to the council and say will you alow me to teach our religion to my child OR will you teach your children the basics of this religion? If you have the knowlege and if you can trust the person who is giving the knowledge then yes sure, go ahead and go and listen to that person. If you do not agree with the point which that individual has made then go out and search for that answer becuase that is the only way you will learn
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_thaillestlunatic_
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good views Brother Amin,
I feel it is the duty of the PARENT (s) to preach religion to their kids
but honestly speaking ALOT of parents don't have a clue as to why
we do some things differently then others. How can we put the blame on
the leaders for not religiously educating ourselves? MHI in firmans says
it is the DUTY OF THE PARENT to preach the faith to their kids. However,
the missionaries and BUI teachers probably know more then the parents
then I don't see any harm in asking them to preach Ismailism. If we wait
for ITREB or council to publish religious education about Ismailism we
will be waiting forever. Just my views on the topic.
I feel it is the duty of the PARENT (s) to preach religion to their kids
but honestly speaking ALOT of parents don't have a clue as to why
we do some things differently then others. How can we put the blame on
the leaders for not religiously educating ourselves? MHI in firmans says
it is the DUTY OF THE PARENT to preach the faith to their kids. However,
the missionaries and BUI teachers probably know more then the parents
then I don't see any harm in asking them to preach Ismailism. If we wait
for ITREB or council to publish religious education about Ismailism we
will be waiting forever. Just my views on the topic.
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star_munir
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- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
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It is responsibilty of parents to educate kids, to make them learn and teach them but that not means that there is no need of school.
Why there are night school,tariqa board etc. It is their responsibility to make jamat aware about religion not hide or censor religion.It is a fact that most of the ismailis of today not knows the basic principles not even night school teachers. Why?? I think it is the responsibility of Tariqa board to make aware jamat about ismailism and if giving knowledge about religion is sole responsibility of parents only that I dont think that there is any need of religious centre. Do you know that basic things like concept of Niyaz,hai zinda,sukreet are taught in HRE level.
Why there are night school,tariqa board etc. It is their responsibility to make jamat aware about religion not hide or censor religion.It is a fact that most of the ismailis of today not knows the basic principles not even night school teachers. Why?? I think it is the responsibility of Tariqa board to make aware jamat about ismailism and if giving knowledge about religion is sole responsibility of parents only that I dont think that there is any need of religious centre. Do you know that basic things like concept of Niyaz,hai zinda,sukreet are taught in HRE level.
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_thaillestlunatic_
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from_Origin
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YAM All,star_munir wrote:Do you know that basic things like concept of Niyaz,hai zinda,sukreet are taught in HRE level.
What is HRE?
Here, I'd like to present my humble opinion. It is, of course, open for discussion.
I believe there is a farman of MHI, when He's reflecting on the future of the youth in our Jamat, instructing parents to take the responsibility (and considerable time) to teach their kids their faith WELL. Kids should know their faith CORRECTLY otherwise there is no point in teaching them this faith. But in order to teach this faith to their kids, MHI instructs the parents to get informed first before preaching to their kids. Makes absolute sense to me.
If anyone knows the date and location of this farman, please post so as to provide credibility and importance to this message.
In other words, the REAL learning takes place at home since kids model after their parents (whether the kids know it or not, and whether they like it or not). I simply could not leave much of the teaching to REC teachers or make it the responsibility of any institution, including ITREB. REC may be a place to spark curiousity and springboard further discussions and learning, when looking at the larger scheme of things.
My understanding is that at least in Canada (not sure particularly in Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, etc) there are routine discussions and workshops on the intellectual thought in Islam/Ismailism. There seems to be higher level of intellectual activity about our faith than that taking place in the U.S. I have no info about other countries so I there's nothing for me to comment on.
There is a Farman of Mawlana SMS's where He instructs His followers to hold "Ilm Majlis" (Gathering of Learning). This means taking the Imam's Farmans and our Pir's Ginans and sitting in a group (or individually) and searching deep into the meaning and essence of what the Imam is trying to depart to His murid. The discussion topics could be of spirituality or the material world (and its impact spiritually).
So if the parents cannot understand and depart certain knowledge of faith to their kids, should they really hold others responsible if their kids naturally follow the same trend?