Miracle

[kinnare786]

I have been thinking this questiion for last many months. I would really like some one to answer it acedemically. We Ismaili leave between muslim society like in Pakistan but we do not have some type of Problem like other Pakistani muslim. Yesterday 150 human died in PPP rally many Ismailies from northen Area also come to support B. Bhutto but not a single Ismailies died. I see this type of thing day in day out. what is the reason?

[zubair_mahamood]

I have been thinking this questiion for last many months. I would really like some one to answer it acedemically. We Ismaili leave between muslim society like in Pakistan but we do not have some type of Problem like other Pakistani muslim. Yesterday 150 human died in PPP rally many Ismailies from northen Area also come to support B. Bhutto but not a single Ismailies died. I see this type of thing day in day out. what is the reason?

The one who is born will have to test death, death don’t see age or occasion it will come when it has to whether if we are in Bhutto’s rally or comfortable sleeping in our bed room. I think accidents, diseases, etc are just excuses! There is no miracle if Ismaili didn’t die in the rally if you say Ismaili don’t die I will take it as a miracle brother.

[kinnare786]

I am not saying Ismailies do not die. Zubhair Bhai. And I think after fifty years on this planet I do understand how Mother Nature works, but that is not my question?

[star_munir]

I dont know much about that incident. But when there are bomb blasts,earthquakes or any disaster, then any one can die irrespective of what is their religion. May be I have not understood your question completly. It will be better if you can further explain what you want to ask.

[AsadALLAH]

Yesterday 150 human died in PPP rally many Ismailies from northen Area also come to support B. Bhutto but not a single Ismailies died. I see this type of thing day in day out. what is the reason?

We have Mowla's hand with us. We pray everyday in Khane for Mushkil Asaan and after the first dua, we have a stand up tasbhi. That tasbhi prays for our protection and well being.

[zubair_mahamood]

Yesterday 150 human died in PPP rally many Ismailies from northen Area also come to support B. Bhutto but not a single Ismailies died. I see this type of thing day in day out. what is the reason?

We have Mowla's hand with us. We pray everyday in Khane for Mushkil Asaan and after the first dua, we have a stand up tasbhi. That tasbhi prays for our protection and well being.

Do u think if we die it means we wont have Mowla's Hand with us?

[AsadALLAH]

Yesterday 150 human died in PPP rally many Ismailies from northen Area also come to support B. Bhutto but not a single Ismailies died. I see this type of thing day in day out. what is the reason?

We have Mowla's hand with us. We pray everyday in Khane for Mushkil Asaan and after the first dua, we have a stand up tasbhi. That tasbhi prays for our protection and well being.

Do u think if we die it means we wont have Mowla's Hand with us?

I'm not saying that. What i'm saying is...We (Ismaili's) are very blessed and have a living Imam to guide us. If weren't for him, we khoja's would still be in India as slaves. We will have Mowla's hand with us and if i'm not mistaken, I think MSM had said that "He will answer for us"

[star_munir]

We have Mowla's hand with us. We pray everyday in Khane for Mushkil Asaan and after the first dua, we have a stand up tasbhi. That tasbhi prays for our protection and well being.

Do u think if we die it means we wont have Mowla's Hand with us?

I'm not saying that. What i'm saying is...We (Ismaili's) are very blessed and have a living Imam to guide us. If weren't for him, we khoja's would still be in India as slaves. We will have Mowla's hand with us and if i'm not mistaken, I think MSM had said that "He will answer for us"

Ofcourse Ismailis are very blessed but what do you mean by saying we khoja would still be in India as slaves! There are many Ismailis who are living in India and they are living a very happy life.

[AsadALLAH]

Khoja's were "Untouchables" Khoja upaar Bhoja.
Talk to someone that knows the history. I heard it in a waez made by Abu Aly.

[zubair_mahamood]

Khoja's were "Untouchables" Khoja upaar Bhoja.
Talk to someone that knows the history. I heard it in a waez made by Abu Aly.

May be! I don’t Khoja History, still in India a large population of untouchables exists but they are not khoja’s, they are different tribes given status depending of their caste and they have reservation almost in every states run affair…. It’s like compensation for injustice down to them before…..

AsadAllah it looks like you are unhappy been a salve or an untouchable…..! I don’t understand what is wrong if someone is untouchable or unaccepted, a Murid is always accepted by Mowla…. Be a Slave or a Master if you don’t understand faith, a king can’t be a successful ruler and a slave can’t server his master properly then the life lived is just spend, it has no meaning. When you have understanding of faith you will not think in terms of master and slave because these two words will perish, Allah and His love will remain which gives satisfaction two both king and slave, which make a king friend of slaves and helps a servant to be loyal…!

Zubair Mahamood

[zubin_chagani]

hmmm....i wud like to put this in very simple terms !!

ur destiny is already written my fren

ur life , ur death...everything

what is left on human being is the intellect so as to search and find the happiness/sorrow, gain/loss and much much more


so in short my fren ur destiny is already written by allah[swt]

this is ur last avatar so make sure u use it wisely

[baqi]

Ofcourse Ismailis are very blessed but what do you mean by saying we khoja would still be in India as slaves! There are many Ismailis who are living in India and they are living a very happy life.

Let's not think that things are 100% roses for Ismailis in India - we are viewed as Muslims (as we proudly are!) by the Hindus. The Hindu hatred for Muslims is immense. Let's not forget the bigotry and discrimination that Hindu converts to Ismaili Islam met from Hindus. And, let's not forget the periodical violence and the systemic everyday discrimination that Muslims in India meet. Further, don't forget why Pakistan (and I describe myself as a Pakistani Patriot in addition to being a very proud Shi'a Ismaili) was created: to provide freedom and safety for Muslims in the Indian sub-continent, to be free from Hindu oppression and discrimination. This is why I believe in Pakistan and I believe in Hazar Imam's prophecy that Pakistan will grow in strength to the extent that it is unstoppable, inshallah (indeed, the previous Imam [a] declared Pakistan to be the leader of the Muslim ummah). Hindus generally don't like Muslims - I've witnessed (even personally experienced) a lot of Hindu and Sikh bigotry against Muslims here in London and see it all the time on Hindu and Sikh online forums and websites. Ya Ali.

[kmaherali]

Hindus generally don't like Muslims - I've witnessed (even personally experienced) a lot of Hindu and Sikh bigotry against Muslims here in London and see it all the time on Hindu and Sikh online forums and websites. Ya Ali.

I would like to quote an excerpt from Prince Alykhan's speech on the impact and perception of Islam in the Sub Continent.

"Fortunately, historians are now begi-nning to recognise the historic role of Islam as a liberating force for peoples oppressed by the burdens of unjust social systems. Islam challenged the contemporary societies of Asia and Europe, which rested on absolu-tism, intolerance and the privilege of birth and race. Instead it offered equality. Swami Vivekanananda, the distinguished Hindu savant, had this to say of its impact on India: "To Muslim rule we owe that great blessing, the destruction of exclusive privilege ...The Muslim conquest of India came as a salvation to the down-trodden, to the poor. That is why one-fifth of our people have become Muslim.......''

The emergence of Pakistan, a decade ago, was an act of protest against the existence of privilege in the social order of the subcontinent of India. It reflects the will of the Muslims of the subcontinent to escape from the fear of being reduced, in course of time, by the inexorable facts of the situation in which they found themselves, to the status of second class citizens. It is a symbol of their determination to ensure for themselves an existence based on human dignity and equality in accordance with the social concepts of Islam."(Speech by Prince Aly Khan, Permanent Representative of Pakistan to the Council of Islamic Affairs, New York on May 27th 1958.)

[baqi]

Hindus generally don't like Muslims - I've witnessed (even personally experienced) a lot of Hindu and Sikh bigotry against Muslims here in London and see it all the time on Hindu and Sikh online forums and websites. Ya Ali.

I would like to quote an excerpt from Prince Alykhan's speech on the impact and perception of Islam in the Sub Continent.

"Fortunately, historians are now begi-nning to recognise the historic role of Islam as a liberating force for peoples oppressed by the burdens of unjust social systems. Islam challenged the contemporary societies of Asia and Europe, which rested on absolu-tism, intolerance and the privilege of birth and race. Instead it offered equality. Swami Vivekanananda, the distinguished Hindu savant, had this to say of its impact on India: "To Muslim rule we owe that great blessing, the destruction of exclusive privilege ...The Muslim conquest of India came as a salvation to the down-trodden, to the poor. That is why one-fifth of our people have become Muslim.......''

The emergence of Pakistan, a decade ago, was an act of protest against the existence of privilege in the social order of the subcontinent of India. It reflects the will of the Muslims of the subcontinent to escape from the fear of being reduced, in course of time, by the inexorable facts of the situation in which they found themselves, to the status of second class citizens. It is a symbol of their determination to ensure for themselves an existence based on human dignity and equality in accordance with the social concepts of Islam."(Speech by Prince Aly Khan, Permanent Representative of Pakistan to the Council of Islamic Affairs, New York on May 27th 1958.)

Mashallah Kmaherali - thanks for the quotes on Pakistan from the Ahlul-Bayt (a) of the Holy Prophet (s). All Desi Muslims, Ismaili and non-Ismaili, should be thankful to Allah (s) for Pakistan - when there is no place for us to go, Pakistan will always be there for every Desi Muslim - here we can find true religious and cultural freedom.

May Allah (s) and Hazar Imam (a) shower their blessings upon Pakistan!

Allahu Akbar, Ya Ali.

[star_munir]

Ofcourse Ismailis are very blessed but what do you mean by saying we khoja would still be in India as slaves! There are many Ismailis who are living in India and they are living a very happy life.

Let's not think that things are 100% roses for Ismailis in India - we are viewed as Muslims (as we proudly are!) by the Hindus. The Hindu hatred for Muslims is immense. Let's not forget the bigotry and discrimination that Hindu converts to Ismaili Islam met from Hindus. And, let's not forget the periodical violence and the systemic everyday discrimination that Muslims in India meet. Further, don't forget why Pakistan (and I describe myself as a Pakistani Patriot in addition to being a very proud Shi'a Ismaili) was created: to provide freedom and safety for Muslims in the Indian sub-continent, to be free from Hindu oppression and discrimination. This is why I believe in Pakistan and I believe in Hazar Imam's prophecy that Pakistan will grow in strength to the extent that it is unstoppable, inshallah (indeed, the previous Imam [a] declared Pakistan to be the leader of the Muslim ummah). Hindus generally don't like Muslims - I've witnessed (even personally experienced) a lot of Hindu and Sikh bigotry against Muslims here in London and see it all the time on Hindu and Sikh online forums and websites. Ya Ali.

Please dont start India Pakistan battle here. It is very big misconception that muslims in India do not have equal rights. They have complete freedom and are living happily. Its totally wrong concept that hindus hate muslims. In most of the places hindus and muslims lives peacefuly and happily. People following different religionss live together in spirit of pluralism in India. They are united.
Come India at the time of holi and you will notice many Ismaili and Non Ismaili muslims celebrating it in same manner. Come at Eid time and you will see same happiness shared by hindus and christians.
Go and visit Hasanabad Jamat khana. You will be surprised to see that Marathi hindus go to the tomb of Imam Hassan Ali Shah and pray near pic of Hazir Imam with devotion and faith.

[star_munir]

Ofcourse Ismailis are very blessed but what do you mean by saying we khoja would still be in India as slaves! There are many Ismailis who are living in India and they are living a very happy life.

Let's not think that things are 100% roses for Ismailis in India - we are viewed as Muslims (as we proudly are!) by the Hindus. The Hindu hatred for Muslims is immense. Let's not forget the bigotry and discrimination that Hindu converts to Ismaili Islam met from Hindus. And, let's not forget the periodical violence and the systemic everyday discrimination that Muslims in India meet. Further, don't forget why Pakistan (and I describe myself as a Pakistani Patriot in addition to being a very proud Shi'a Ismaili) was created: to provide freedom and safety for Muslims in the Indian sub-continent, to be free from Hindu oppression and discrimination. This is why I believe in Pakistan and I believe in Hazar Imam's prophecy that Pakistan will grow in strength to the extent that it is unstoppable, inshallah (indeed, the previous Imam [a] declared Pakistan to be the leader of the Muslim ummah). Hindus generally don't like Muslims - I've witnessed (even personally experienced) a lot of Hindu and Sikh bigotry against Muslims here in London and see it all the time on Hindu and Sikh online forums and websites. Ya Ali.

There are reasons for conflict. Try to find the reason. The sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was martyred or killed by Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Many templese were destroyed by some muslim emperors e.g, Qutubudin Aibak and Mehmood Ghaznavi.
See not any religion teaches hatred. It is the people who do hate or discriminate in the name of religion. Even today when some times there is conflict between hindus and muslims there are politicians and terrorists behind it. Otherwise in general people belonging to different religions love each other and there isn't any such discrimination in general.

[baqi]

From http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0036.html:

His active participation in the public life for about ten years gave the young Aga Khan an insight into the condition of Muslim India. He recalls his impressions about this period in his Memoirs as under:

"At the same time I began to realize, during these two crucial years (when he was a member of Viceroy's Executive Council) that the Congress Party, the only active and responsible political organization in the country, would prove itself incapable, was already proving itself incapable, of representing India's Muslims, or of dealing adequately or justly with the needs and aspirations of the Muslim community. The pressure of Hindu extremism was too strong. Already that artificial unity which the British Raj had imposed from without, was cracking. Deep seated and ineradicable differences expressed themselves once political activity and aspiration had advanced beyond the most elementary stage. The breach was there in Hindu intransigence and lack of perception of basic Muslim ideals and hopes. I did all I could to prevent the breach widened. I maintained a campaign of remonstrance with Sir Pheroze Shah Mehta, who was high in the counsels of the Congress Party, who was a friend of my family and who had known me since childhood. I begged him to use his influence and make Congress realize how important it was to win Muslim confidence. But all to no avail."

I post the full article in the my next post

[baqi]

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0036.html

ROLE OF THE LATE AGA KHAN AS A LEADER OF THE MUSLIMS
OF THE SUBCONTINENT IN THE POLITICAL FIELD

By: SHERALI ALIDINA, KARACHI

After the collapse of the Great Revolution of 1857, the Muslims in the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent were hounded out of all opportunities and employments. Full advantage of the hostile attitude of the British was taken by other communities who thus surpassed the Muslims in every field. It was the genius of Syed Ahmed Khan, which tried to bring about a change in their prejudices against the British. In 1875, Syed Ahmed Khan laid the foundation of the Muhammedan Anglo-Oriental College at Aligarh. In 1885, Mr. Hume, an English retired member of I.C.S. established the Indian National Congress. The Muslims under the leadership of Syed Ahmed Khan were soon found trying to keep themselves aloof from the Congress because it had become obvious that its activities were by no means favorable to them.

It was in the great hall of Aligarh College, that in the year 1896, this grand old man of Muslim India met a very young man in whom he soon began to pin his hopes. His Highness Sir Sultan Mohammed Shah Prince Aga Khan had visited the college where Syed Ahmed Khan, aged 82, welcomed him and presented an address in Persian to which the former also replied in Persian. Two years later Syed Ahmed Khan passed away.

In 1897, the Aga Khan presented three addresses of congratulations to the then Viceroy Lord Elgin at Simla; one on behalf of his community, the other as leader of the Muslims of Western India and a third on behalf of a representative assemblage of the citizens of Bombay and Poona. In 1902, Prince Aga Khan was appointed for two years a member of the Viceroy's Council, which in those days was a very influential body. He took his residence at Calcutta then capital of India.

The Aga Khan's appointment to the Viceroy's Legislative council at the age of 25 years, as he then was, proved an effective training ground for his future public and political life. Besides other important men, he came in close contact with Lord Curzon, Lord Kitchner and the great Indian Leader, Mr. Gokhale. He also kept himself in touch with Nawab Viqarul Mulk and Nawab Mohsinul Mulk, whom he had met during his visit to Aligarh in 1896. In 1904, Aga Khan was again offered membership of the council for two more years but he did not accept it. I think it was mostly for the reason that he wanted to participate actively in politics, as the future events show. In 1902-03, he presided at the session of the Ali India Muslim Education Conference held at Delhi, on the occasion of the Coronation of King Edward VII, and made a strong appeal to the Muslims to raise the Aligarh College to the status of a University.

His active participation in the public life for about ten years gave the young Aga Khan an insight into the condition of Muslim India. He recalls his impressions about this period in his Memoirs as under:

"At the same time I began to realize, during these two crucial years (when he was a member of Viceroy's Executive Council) that the Congress Party, the only active and responsible political organization in the country, would prove itself incapable, was already proving itself incapable, of representing India's Muslims, or of dealing adequately or justly with the needs and aspirations of the Muslim community. The pressure of Hindu extremism was too strong. Already that artificial unity which the British Raj had imposed from without, was cracking. Deep seated and ineradicable differences expressed themselves once political activity and aspiration had advanced beyond the most elementary stage. The breach was there in Hindu intransigence and lack of perception of basic Muslim ideals and hopes. I did all I could to prevent the breach widened. I maintained a campaign of remonstrance with Sir Pheroze Shah Mehta, who was high in the counsels of the Congress Party, who was a friend of my family and who had known me since childhood. I begged him to use his influence and make Congress realize how important it was to win Muslim confidence. But all to no avail."

Having been disappointed at the attitude of the Hindu dominated Congress, Prince Aga Khan, and his old friend Nawab Mohsin-ul-Mulk along with other Muslims, thought of organizing the Muslims and safeguarding their interests. On 1st October 1906, after consultations with Prince Aga Khan Nawab Mohsin- ul-Mulk, organized a deputation of 35 Indian Muslims, with the former as their leader, to present demands of Muslim India to the then Viceroy, Lord Minto, at Simla. The copy of the Address was prepared and sent in advance to the Viceroy. However, while traveling from Colombo to Simla, His Highness telegraphically suggested certain additions and alterations from intervening stations to be made in it. The Address read before the Viceroy by Prince Aga Khan inter alia demanded what is known as separate electorates for the Muslims of India. Hitherto the Congress which had numerical majority was persisting in ignoring the realities of communal situation and in sending only third rate Muslims from preponderantly Hindu provinces like Madras and Bombay. The Muslims, therefore, asked for their separate representations at all levels of Government working - district boards, municipalities and legislative councils. They demanded that the elections for Muslims in these tiers should be held separately and exclusively by them thus providing an opportunity to Muslim voters to return Muslim representatives according to their choice. In the Address, Prince Aga Khan also laid great emphasis on the raising, of the Aligarh College to a full-fledged University.

On 1 October, 1906, the news of the demands of Muslims for separate electorates spread like wild fire throughout the length and breadth of India. The Congress raised a storm of protests. There was some so-called nationalist Muslims who ridiculed this step of their brethren.

To assert their stand and make known the correct view-point of Muslims, Prince Aga Khan thought that it was necessary to have a political platform and association for the Muslims of India. He, therefore, on 24th October, 1906 wrote a letter to Nawab Mohsin-ul-Mulk which is a very important document in the History of Muslims of this subcontinent because with this document starts the Muslim League under whose flag the Muslims won their freedom and got Pakistan. The letter(1) is quoted below in full:

11, Elysium Road. Calcutta
24th October, 1906

My dear Nawab Sahib,

Perhaps I may be allowed as one, who took part in the recent deputation to H.E. the Viceroy to make a few suggestions as to future. The whole of the Mohammedan Community have taken the keenest interest in the movement and look to us to try our best to secure that the objects which were set forth in the address may be ultimately secured.

It may be well that provincial associations should be formed with the aim of safeguarding the political interests of Mohammedans in the various portions of India, and similarly some central organization for the whole. On these matters, I do not wish to pronounce an opinion. They are best left I think to the discretion of the leaders in the days that are to come.

But as the deputation was formed with a view to the securing of certain definite objects of the most vital interest to Mohammedans as a whole, I venture to regard its work as begun only, and it seems to me from every point of view important that it should without delay continue its labors until complete success has crowned its efforts. To this end, I would suggest that the deputation which presented the address resolve itself into a committee to endeavor to obtain the granting of the various prayers which the address embodied. This Mohammedan Committee for the completion of work of the deputation might, if it were thought necessary, add to its numbers, though I would suggest, in the interest of the rapid carrying out of its business, that this would be done sparingly, I am sure also that I express what is the wish of all my fellow Mohammedan when I ask you to continue to act as Secretary of this Committee.

Please circulate my letter among the members of the deputation.

I am, my dear Nawab Sahib,
Sincerely Yours,
Aga Khan

P.S,
I further suggest that if any of the members of this committee be absent or unable to give proper attention the other members should act without consulting him. However, this should not mean his resignation, but only his inability to be of service for the time being. Such an absent or indisposed member, unless direction asked to resign or himself resigns will continue to be a permanent member of the Committee.
A.K.

It was decided to deliberate upon the contents of Prince Aga Khan's letter at the time of All India Muslim Educational Conference that was being held at Dacca. Consequently, at a conference held there on 30th December, 1906 under the chairmanship of Nawab Viqarul Mulk a political institution known as the Muslim League was formed. The resolution for this was moved by the Nawab of Dacca Khwaja Salimullah who had earlier, by the middle of December, elaborated a scheme in view of Aga Khan's letter. Both Nawab Viqar-ul-Mulk and Nawab Mohsin-ul-Mulk, as was the desire of the Aga Khan in his letter, were appointed the secretaries. Prince Aga Khan was appointed its first Permanent President which office he occupied for six years until 1912. The second and third sessions of the League were held at Karachi which was attended by the Aga Khan and at Aligarh. In September 1907 and March 1908, respectively, Maulvi Mohammed Amin Zubairi in his urdu compilation "Prince Aga Khan" published in 1952, at page 121, says "At that time it was very necessary to propagate and explain the aims and objects of the Muslim League as well as to have money for its office expenses. The League had no fund of its own. As such His Highness was good enough to fix an annual recurring grant and also contributed a lump-sum as initial grant. In the mean time at the initiative of His Highness a British branch of the All India Muslim League was formed in London with Sir Amirali as its Chairman. Here also all the expenses were given by the Aga Khan."

As a corollary to the political awakening of Muslims the Aga Khan took up the project of raising Aligarh College founded by Syed Ahmed Khan, to a University about which he had already emphasized in his speech in 1902. In 1911, the Aga Khan along- with Maulana Shaukat Ali toured all over India and collected funds to get the status of a University for the Aligarh College. Mawlana Shibli commenting on this work of the Aga Khan said, "What six crores of Muslims could not do what the Aga Khan alone did and got for the Muslims of India a University of their own". Looking back to the history of Muslim struggle in this Subcontinent who can doubt that it was in the portals of Aligarh University that Pakistan was born.


FOOTNOTE:1- For the original letter see Mohsinul Mulk papers to the Aligrah Muslim University Library. Back


BIBLOGRAPHY

1. Newspapers clippings pertaining to the Muslim politic in the subcontinent from 1900 to 1957 preserved in "Dr. Alidina Memorial Library and Ismaili Archives", Karachi, 178 G. E. Britto Road, Karachi.
2. The Prince Aga Khan by Sardar Iqbal Ali Shah, John Long, Ltd., London. 1933.
3. The Aga Khan and his Ancestors by N. Dumasia, Times of India Press, Bombay. 1937.
4. H. R. H. Prince Aga Khan, Guide, Friend and Philosopher of the World of Islam by Qaum Malik, Ismailia Association Pakistan, Karachi, 1954.
5. Urdu company. Huweli Azam Khan, Delhi 1940.
6. Addresses and Speeches relating to The Mohammedan Anglo Oriental College, Aligarh. from 1875-1919, Aligarh Press, Aligarh, 1922.
7. The Memoirs of Aga Khan (Cassell and Co., Ltd. London, 1954).
8. H. H. The Aga Khan by H.J. Greenwall. (The Cresset Press. London, 1952).
9. The Aga Khan by Stanley Jackson (Odhams Press Ltd., London, 1952).
10. Ismailia Association Pakistan, 1951.
11. Lord Curzan in India by Sir Thomas Roleigh (Macmillan and Co. Ltd., 1906).
12. India under Morley & Minto by M. N. Das, (George Allen Unwin Ltd., 1964).
13. Lord Minto and the Indian Nationalist Movement by S. R. Wasti, (Clarendon Press, Oxford. 1964).
14. Rare Documents compiled by Syed Rais Ahmed Jafri. (Mohammedali Academy. Lahore, 1967).
15. The Evolution of India and Pakistan, 1857-1947: Select documents by C. H. Philips, (Oxford University Press, 1964).

[baqi]

From ‘An Ismaili Manual of Practice’ by Pir Sadruddin:

“Do not follow Hindu sectarian teachings your salvation cannot be found there.”

[star_munir]

So now it seems you are in mood of India/Pak debate and have tried to justify your points with the references of words of Imam and Pir, so let me also reply in same.
The words of Imam and Ginan you have quoted are indeed true !

From ‘An Ismaili Manual of Practice’ by Pir Sadruddin:

“Do not follow Hindu sectarian teachings your salvation cannot be found there.”

You quoted this verse of Ginan...now here no where it is written that Hinduism is bad or hindus are bad. Just it is written "Do not follow...."
In India, you are not bound to follow "hinduism"

Secondly read Anant Akhado by Pir Hassan Kabirdin in one of the verse Pir says, "Hindu musalman sarave ekhtta"
so according to this verse two nation theory is complete fake...What do you say?

As per Sir Naoraji Dumasia, "No Indian Nationalist, not even Mr.Gandhi argued India's case for justice and liberty with such cogency and independence as the Aga Khan."

Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said,"India is like the Maharashtra Divinity, which has one big body but many hands of varying lengths and proportions. Her varying cultures and civilisations have a rich unity. This variety does not mean disunison but a great splendour in things of the spirit and toleration."

You think Hindus hate muslims...see how Imam has praised his hindu friend in His Memoirs....

"Gokhale and I struck up a friendship which only ended with his death. He was a caste hindu and I was a muslim, but our friendship crossed the barriers of creed and race. He was a man of vision, courageous and generous. His influence on my thought and outlook was probably considerable. In Gokhale I encountered powerful as well as lovable personality. I realized how deep and strong were the forces in India of which he was the spokesman."

Similarly, Imam had written about Sarojini Naidu in Memoirs of Aga Khan : "Mrs. Naidu, Gandhi's companion in his midnight conference with Me at the Ritz that autumn night in 1931, was in her way hardly less fascinating personality. She was one of the most remarkable women I have ever met, in some ways as remarkable as Miss Nightangle herself. Her home after her marriage was in Hyderabad. Although her original inclinations and her upbringing were exteremely democratic, she was a poet.....She herself was a real poet, who wrote strongly and tenderly of love and of life, of the world of the spirit and the passions. In that linking of tenderness and strength which was in her nature there was no room for malice, hatred or ill will. She was a vigorous nationalist, determined that the British must leave India and her destiny in the hand of India's children, yet her admiration for western civilization and western science-above all for English literature was deep and measureless."

[star_munir]

I had posted it earlier also and now I am posting it again...
_________________________________________________________

Unity between hindus and muslims

I will share here some examples of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah's efforts for unity btw hindus and muslims and His love for India.

In 1893, Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah was called upon to settle major riots btw hindus and muslims. Because of this, Ismailis not only refrained from participating in riots byr also helped in restoring peace and order. they gave shelter to a number of hindus.

Imam said about importance of education in making different nations and community united in following words : "..... The last and most important benefit would be that as education became general, caste and religious prejudices would gradually die out. The greatest misfortune of India is that its peoples are divided into compartments and live in compartments. Mohamedans and Hindus, owing to religioius and social prejudices due to ignorance, are like two nations apart. The Hindus of the upper and lower castes are equally separated. This division is not only ruinous to the people but in the long run will make peaceful administration impossible. This gulf cannot be bridged by force. No, the work must be done through education, general, elementary and scientific. Religious difficulties and caste disabilities will only become the minor things they are in Europe and America when education teaches the public that such differences are not to be allowed to interfere in their daily lives."

On 29 January, 1910 Imam gave the inaugural Address to the All India Muslim League Third Annual Session in Delhi, in which He said :
"I have no hesitation in asserting that unless Hindus and Mohammedans co-operate with each other in the general development of the country as a whole and in all matters affecting their mutual interest, neither will develop to the full its legitimate aspirations or give full scope to its possibilities." (Mohammadens means muslims)

Imam also suggested to read sanskrit literature as well...
"That one object is the improvement of education. The Muslims should enlarge the sphere of education where it exists already and must create it where it is absent. Scientific and technical education in all its various branches such as commercial, industrial and agricultural instruction must be the main practical objects of our energy and ambitions. At the same time the literary side so beautifully known as the Humanities should not be neglected and our interest as well as sentiments make it necessary that a knowledge, not only of English, Arabic and Persian but also of Sanskrit literature, should exist amongst us so that we may come in contact with the sources of Hindu civilisation and the roots of Hindu society..."
(this quote or a quote similar to this, you can also find in Noorum Mubin)

On December 23, 1910 in an Interview with "The Times of India" Imam with regards to unity between hindus and muslims said, "They were all partners in the mightiest and most glorious empire the world had ever seen, they were component parts of a body politic, and creatures of one God. Hindus and Mahomedans were like two arms of a nation - they could not sacrifice nor injure one without weakening the other."

In 1912, Sultan Mohamed Shah also called a Hindu-Muslim Unity Conference at Allahabad.

December 9, 1927 - Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah gave a statement to the Press in Bombay which was printed in "The Times", London, December 10, 1927. statement was issued as Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah arrived in Bombay from Europe. Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah said, "...I am moved only by love for India. The whole country is divided, and while these divisions last, progress is impossible."

Eid is coming and as we know that non ismaili muslims sacrifice animals on occassion of Eid. During those days there were also problems because of sacrificing cow on occassion of Eid because hindus consider Cow as sacred animal.
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah on Dec 31, 1928 at All India All Parties Muslim Conference in Delhi said, "Cow-killing has unfortunately been a perpetual source of bitter feeling between Muslims and Hindus. It is incumbent on us all to find a remedy. It may help us to do this, if we trace the origin of sacrificial rites. We are all agreed that we celebrate the historical sacrifice by Ibrahim. But it must be remembered that Ibrahim, one of our great Prophets, did not sacrifice a cow, nor is the sacrifice of a bovine especially enjoined anywhere. On the contrary, the camel or the sheep is more frequently mentioned in connection with sacrificial rites. How many of our Hajis have sacrificed cows in Arabia, the home of Islam?"

[baqi]

Star Munir – the quotes you present just show that Hazar Imam (a) is against sectarianism, which is correct. Sure, I’m prepared to accept a Hindu and Sikh as long as they don’t hate Muslims (which the majority do) or propagandise against Muslims (which many do).

But, you don’t address the fact that Hazar Imam (a), if you read my previous postings, recognised the reality of Hindu extremism that sought to marginalise and threaten Muslims. You ignore the fact that Hazar Imam (a) was a leading supporter of the creation of Pakistan to protect Islam and the Muslims! That Hazar Imam (a) praised Pakistan as the leader of the Ummah of Muhammad (s)!

Finally, before you present your pro-Hindu sentiments to me, why don’t you take your arguments to your local BJB/RSS/VHP/Shiv Shena/Bajrang Dal/ Ranvir Sena/HSS meeting and see what response you get. Test them there. You’ll hardly see any Hindus/Sikhs speaking so fondly of the Muslims in the way you as a Muslim speak so fondly of them.

Ya Ali – no surrender to Yazid, no surrender to Hindutva!

Proud to be a:

Shi’a Ismaili

Pakistani Patriot

Muslim Nationalist.

[asifmomin1]

Dear brother Baqi,
From my deep experience with Hindu's as well as Muslims (both sunnis and twelvers,) I would at any given time prefer to live, work or do business with a Hindu over a Muslim. Hindu's are one of the most tolerant bunch in the world. I'll throw in a very recent example involving our own community. There were a series of eight blasts in Jaipur last tuesday in a Hanuman temple and other busy points in the town which killed over 60 peoples (officially) and injured scores of others. Mumbai and New Delhi were put on high alert. On Thursday, when Mowla Bapa arrived in Mumbai, the local authorities, despite of terror alert, allowed more than 20,000 murids to gather at the Mumbai International Airport to welcome their spiritual leader.
RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal and many similar Hindu outfits may represent the extreme face of Hinduism, but my dear brother, don't forget, Islam is at this time the most damned and critisized religion in the world. I will dare to take star_munir's arguments to Hindu extremists but would never be able to take it to Taliban, Lashker-e-Toiba, or even a regular elder of Pakistan's North West Frontier Province.
India had a Muslim president, currently has a Muslim vice president and a lot of elected Muslim representatives. Remember, though you may argue this, Shri Ram was the 7th and Shri Krishna was the 8th of our Dus Avatars.
Squabbles apart, if you get chance read excerpts of Bhagwad Gita, you will feel like you are reading Kalaam-a-Imam-a-Mubin (Part 1.) Hinduism is a great religion full of knowledge. If we accuse Hindus of idol worshipping, we all, I mean all world religions, follow the same trait. Christian look at the cross, we look at our Imam’s picture, Muslims at Mecca Sharif and I can go on with the list all day long. As our Imam in his 48th jomaa said "badan ne jonaar bud parast chee." We are all idol worshippers in some sense.
Lastly, my brother, no one is asking us to bow to Hindutva or anyone. We are not even bowing to Hazar Imam by not obeying all his farmans where do we have the time or compulsion to bow to someone else. I'll conclude with a notion that Mowla Bapa want's us all to remember, "Pluralism is Strength."
Please pardon me if I offended anyone in anyways, Ya Ali Madad.

[star_munir]

Dear brother Baqi,
From my deep experience with Hindu's as well as Muslims (both sunnis and twelvers,) I would at any given time prefer to live, work or do business with a Hindu over a Muslim. Hindu's are one of the most tolerant bunch in the world. I'll throw in a very recent example involving our own community. There were a series of eight blasts in Jaipur last tuesday in a Hanuman temple and other busy points in the town which killed over 60 peoples (officially) and injured scores of others. Mumbai and New Delhi were put on high alert. On Thursday, when Mowla Bapa arrived in Mumbai, the local authorities, despite of terror alert, allowed more than 20,000 murids to gather at the Mumbai International Airport to welcome their spiritual leader.
RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal and many similar Hindu outfits may represent the extreme face of Hinduism, but my dear brother, don't forget, Islam is at this time the most damned and critisized religion in the world. I will dare to take star_munir's arguments to Hindu extremists but would never be able to take it to Taliban, Lashker-e-Toiba, or even a regular elder of Pakistan's North West Frontier Province.
India had a Muslim president, currently has a Muslim vice president and a lot of elected Muslim representatives. Remember, though you may argue this, Shri Ram was the 7th and Shri Krishna was the 8th of our Dus Avatars.
Squabbles apart, if you get chance read excerpts of Bhagwad Gita, you will feel like you are reading Kalaam-a-Imam-a-Mubin (Part 1.) Hinduism is a great religion full of knowledge. If we accuse Hindus of idol worshipping, we all, I mean all world religions, follow the same trait. Christian look at the cross, we look at our Imam’s picture, Muslims at Mecca Sharif and I can go on with the list all day long. As our Imam in his 48th jomaa said "badan ne jonaar bud parast chee." We are all idol worshippers in some sense.
Lastly, my brother, no one is asking us to bow to Hindutva or anyone. We are not even bowing to Hazar Imam by not obeying all his farmans where do we have the time or compulsion to bow to someone else. I'll conclude with a notion that Mowla Bapa want's us all to remember, "Pluralism is Strength."
Please pardon me if I offended anyone in anyways, Ya Ali Madad.

Excellent reply ! nothing is left to say from my side. I completly agree.

[Virgo2]

Dear brother Baqi,

I am glad to know that you are a Shia Ismaili now! Congratulations!

Brother Asif Momin,

From my deep experience with Hindu's as well as Muslims (both sunnis and twelvers,) I would at any given time prefer to live, work or do business with a Hindu over a Muslim.

I totally agree! Everytime I have tried to befriend sunnis and twelvers they have rejected me as soon as they find out I am an Ismaili. Or they will make an ignorant and covert remark. Now, I stay away from them

However, I have friends who were raised sunnis, bohoras and twelvers and who call theselves Muslims only and do not follow all the "pillars of Islam". They believe Muslims should be good people. And they are truly good people,and extremely generous. They get along with everybody, including Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Christians.

I think they represent the true face of Islam. Virgo2

[star_munir]

Dear Baqi, you have written "Ya Ali – no surrender to Yazid, no surrender to Hindutva! Proud to be a: Shi’a Ismaili Pakistani Patriot Muslim Nationalist." in the end of your post.
Please don't compare hinduism with yazid. Yazid, Mawiya etc all were muslims. The person who wanted to kill Imam Hussain was in hurry because after killing Imam he wanted to recite "namaz".
I haven't read in our history Hindus trying to do similar acts with Imams.
There are many hindus and other non muslims who respect the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Imam very much. There is one of my Christian friend every time when he meets me, he greets me by saying "Ya Ali Madad".
Hindus or Sikhs are not enemies of Islam. We, the muslims ourselves are enemies of religion. These are the acts of muslims who tries their level best to potray the image of Islam as a religion of terrorism instead of religion of peace and love. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who had forgiven all his enemies and now in the name of religion of same Prophet muslims are killing each other. Blasphemy law and other non sense laws are there is muslims countries which are totally misused and giving wrong impression of Islam.
I respect your patriotic feelings towards your country. It is some thing natural with almost every one. I am sure if you will just go and meet Christians and hindus living in Pakistan (who are considered as second class citizens) you will find them patriotic too, may be even more patriotic then certain muslim pakistanis...The reason will perhaps not be that they are having freedom in Islamic State,but because of the fact that pakistan is their janambhoomi or the land of their birth and almost every one do love thier country.
So, I respect your patriotic feelings but that doesn't mean to have wrong concepts and hatred towards other countries. One of the important reason for this hatred is curriculum of Pakistan in Subject of Social Studies, which is inculcating feelings of hatred in the yound minds of children towards India and Hinduism, inorder to justify the existence of Pakistan..which is certainly wrong. Anyways, the reality is completely different. You can come in India and see by your ownself in most of the places people whether they are hindus, muslims, christians etc live peacefuly with harmony and unity.

[baqi]

One of the important reason for this hatred is curriculum of Pakistan in Subject of Social Studies, which is inculcating feelings of hatred in the yound minds of children towards India and Hinduism, inorder to justify the existence of Pakistan..which is certainly wrong. Anyways, the reality is completely different. You can come in India and see by your ownself in most of the places people whether they are hindus, muslims, christians etc live peacefuly with harmony and unity.

Sorry, star_munir but this is a lie - you are just blindly repeating Hindu and Western propaganda against Pakistan and Islam: there is no hatred professed in such Pakistani curriculums - stop repeating lies and propaganda!!!!

I am sure if you will just go and meet Christians and hindus living in Pakistan (who are considered as second class citizens) you will find them patriotic too, may be even more patriotic then certain muslim pakistanis...

Again, wrong. Christian and Hindus are treated with equality and respect. Pakistan is a pluralistic and secular country which recognises and affords rights to non-Muslim minorities in terms of Pakistan's constitution. For example, under Mushurraf the head of the Pakistan judiciary was a minority Hindu! Again, you are just repeating Hindu and Western propaganda against Pakistan and Islam. Unlike India which has very, very popular Hindu political parties, such as the BJP and Shiv Shen, dedicated solely to ethnically cleansing Muslims from India and destroying Pakistan, Pakistan dosen't have religious parties dedicated to solely persecuting non-Muslim minorities!

I haven't read in our history Hindus trying to do similar acts with Imams.

But, you don't deny that Hindus and Sikhs in the both the far and recent past have persecuted Muslims? For example, the recent mass murders of 3,000 Muslims (and another 150,000-200,000 Muslims made homeless) by Hindu fanatics in the BJP-run state of Gujarat, or the mass anti-Muslim riots in Assam or the murders of over 90,000 Muslims since the late 1980s by Hindu and Sikh troops in occupied-Kashmir (a Muslim state) (nor can you deny the fact that over 100,000+ Muslims were killed during Sikh rule over Muslim Kashmir). Or, how Sikh and Hindu Ghurkha troops murdered 250,000 Muslim civilians in Delhi alone on behalf of the imperialist British to punish the Muslims for leading the 1857 war of independence against British-occupation. Or, that Hindu and Sikhs during partition killed 250,000 Muslims in Patiala alone. Nor, can you deny how in 1948, a year after India’s independence, Hindu troops invaded and to this very day occupy the Muslim statelets of Hyderabad and Berar because the majority-Hindu government of India was wary of a Muslim ruled state right in the middle of India?

[star_munir]

One of the important reason for this hatred is curriculum of Pakistan in Subject of Social Studies, which is inculcating feelings of hatred in the yound minds of children towards India and Hinduism, inorder to justify the existence of Pakistan..which is certainly wrong. Anyways, the reality is completely different. You can come in India and see by your ownself in most of the places people whether they are hindus, muslims, christians etc live peacefuly with harmony and unity.

Sorry, star_munir but this is a lie - you are just blindly repeating Hindu and Western propaganda against Pakistan and Islam: there is no hatred professed in such Pakistani curriculums - stop repeating lies and propaganda!!!!

I am sure if you will just go and meet Christians and hindus living in Pakistan (who are considered as second class citizens) you will find them patriotic too, may be even more patriotic then certain muslim pakistanis...

Again, wrong. Christian and Hindus are treated with equality and respect. Pakistan is a pluralistic and secular country which recognises and affords rights to non-Muslim minorities in terms of Pakistan's constitution. For example, under Mushurraf the head of the Pakistan judiciary was a minority Hindu! Again, you are just repeating Hindu and Western propaganda against Pakistan and Islam. Unlike India which has very, very popular Hindu political parties, such as the BJP and Shiv Shen, dedicated solely to ethnically cleansing Muslims from India and destroying Pakistan, Pakistan dosen't have religious parties dedicated to solely persecuting non-Muslim minorities!

I haven't read in our history Hindus trying to do similar acts with Imams.

But, you don't deny that Hindus and Sikhs in the both the far and recent past have persecuted Muslims? For example, the recent mass murders of 3,000 Muslims (and another 150,000-200,000 Muslims made homeless) by Hindu fanatics in the BJP-run state of Gujarat, or the mass anti-Muslim riots in Assam or the murders of over 90,000 Muslims since the late 1980s by Hindu and Sikh troops in occupied-Kashmir (a Muslim state) (nor can you deny the fact that over 100,000+ Muslims were killed during Sikh rule over Muslim Kashmir). Or, how Sikh and Hindu Ghurkha troops murdered 250,000 Muslim civilians in Delhi alone on behalf of the imperialist British to punish the Muslims for leading the 1857 war of independence against British-occupation. Or, that Hindu and Sikhs during partition killed 250,000 Muslims in Patiala alone. Nor, can you deny how in 1948, a year after India’s independence, Hindu troops invaded and to this very day occupy the Muslim statelets of Hyderabad and Berar because the majority-Hindu government of India was wary of a Muslim ruled state right in the middle of India?

Dear baqi, what I mentioned is not a lie. The invaders like Mehmood Ghaznavi who attacked India just to destroy temples and get wealth, are praised for their acts. Is it good?
According to study by Nayyar and Salim (2003) the curriculum of Pakistani Schools encourages prejudice, bigotry and discrimination.
Here are some of the examples:
M.Ikram Rabbani and Monawwar Ali Sayyid's An Introduction to Pakistan Studies, a compulsory reading for first and second year college students studying for an F.A degree in history, begins with a chapter on the establishment of Pakistan based on a concept of Islamic sovereignty. "Allah alone is sovereign and the 'ruler of the Islamic State does not possess any authority of his own'. The coming of Islam to the Indian subcontinent was a 'blessing' since Hinduism was based on an 'unethical caste system'."According to some author like Amar Jaleel "What is being taught to our children in the name of history and Pakistan Studies in schools is far from the truth"Government-issued textbooks teach students that Hindus are backward and superstitious, and given a chance, they would assert their power over the weak, especially, Muslims, depriving them of education by pouring molten lead in their ears. The report adds that in these textbooks, students are taught that "Islam brought peace, equality, and justice to the subcontinent, to check the sinister ways of Hindus." The report adds that "In Pakistani textbooks “Hindus” rarely appears in a sentence without adjective such as politically astute, sly, or manipulative."

(Now here is the link of complete article from where you can read the details about this issue : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Studies)

[star_munir]

See how would be the feelings of Pakistani hindus when they have to read nonsense about their religion and themselves in text books.

But apart from that, I have not written Pakistani minorities having problems there. First of all pak is not a secular country. What I wrote was non muslims living in Pakistan whether they are hindu or christians would be patriotic just like muslim pakistani, according to my thinking because almost every one has love for the country in which they are born and that is quite natural.

If you are talking about 1947, 1948...if many muslims were killed by hindus and sikhs then many hindus were also killed by muslims. How many hindu temples were destroyed in Pakistan in 1947 and 1948. How many innocent people were killed. How many people were raped? How many people were forced to go to India. These are the questions about which perhaps you may have not thought. Just see Karachi, before 1947 many hindus, parsis, chrisitans and jews used to live there. Now very few of them are left. Names of many places are changed for example "Raam bagh" is changed into "Arram bagh" and so on...!

In India still large number of muslims live very peacefully and happily. In Kashmir at the time of partition 77.11 percent people were Muslims but now there are about 90 % muslims there. In holy cities of Muslims Makkah and Medina, non muslim is even not allow to enter while in the most holy city of Hindus i.e, Varanasi many mosques are there and recently many new mosques are being built.

The question is not of hindu, muslims. In Muslim country also see lots of fights are there between shias and Sunnis. Its just because of thinking that we are right others are wrong. We are good others are bad.