Non-Ismailis and Didar

luminous786 · Post by **luminous786** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:05 am

We often consider Ismailism as a progressive faith. We often take pride in how tolerant we are of other religions. In recent years, Hazar Imam has often spoken of pluralism. The word 'pluralism' has many definitions, the most common one being , "the affirmation and acceptance of diversity."

While we talk of this concept, pluralism, there seems to be an underlying disconnect with our acceptance of non-Ismailis in our jamatkhanas. In full disclosure this is something that is very personal to me as I am married to a non-Ismaili and while I would never force my spouse to convert to Ismailism (nor could I if I wanted to), I feel it is very important for ones spouse to see/experience our faith first hand for a couple of reasons.

1) It is difficult for one to consider converting if they are treated as an outsider and not welcome within our places of worship

2) Many other faiths (Christianity, Judaism, etc.) allow people of other faiths into their places of worship which one could argue makes them more tolerant of other faiths.

3) It is very important for a family to be together on special occassions such as Imamat Day whether they are Ismaili or not. It promotes a sense of unity.

So I have a few questions that I would like to open up to the forum.

1) Why are non-Ismailis and non-Ismaili spouses in particular not able to attend Jamatkhana?

2) Why are non-Ismaili spouses not able to participate with their families during Didar? From what I remember a number of non-Ismailis were present when the Imam visited Tajikistan.

I have heard a few responses that I will list here, but I am not convinced yet so if anyone has a good answer, I would certainly appreciate it.

Non-ismailis are not allowed to attend Jamatkhana or participate in Didar because:

1) The bond between the Imam and the Murid would not be as strong if a non-Ismaili is present.

2) Ismailis are not concerned about all non-Ismailis, but only other Muslims as Ismailis practice their faith quite differently from the broader Muslim community

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:54 am

Many of our activities inside jamat khana are between the Murid and the Mursheed - that is a very private relationship - that outsiders will not be able to comprehend.

Let me ask you this in a very vulgar way - suppose you and your spouse were having sex - would you let your neighbor and friends watch you?

and we don't allow non ismailies into Jamatkhana during our ceremonies because of the Farman of the Imam - and remember we have given Baiyat to follow his farmans - no questions asked.

Shams

Virgo2 · Post by **Virgo2** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:32 pm

We often consider Ismailism as a progressive faith. We often take pride in how tolerant we are of other religions. In recent years, Hazar Imam has often spoken of pluralism. The word 'pluralism' has many definitions, the most common one being , "the affirmation and acceptance of diversity."

This is an excellent point.

While we talk of this concept, pluralism, there seems to be an underlying disconnect with our acceptance of non-Ismailis in our jamatkhanas.

Imam is our Ulil-Amr, and only those who have given bayah to him are admitted in our Jamat Khana. Allah has vested knowledge in our Imam, knowledge that our non-Ismaili Muslims or other faiths can never accept or comprehend. As brother Shams points out, Ismailis follow whatever Imam says without asking questions. Non-Ismailis will not and they will ask questions and ridicule us.

However, I do not agree with brother Shams "vulgar" comparison, even though I have utmost respect for him.

A better comparison would be: at a family gathering where you are discussing your own family, and a stranger walks in and sits down, would you not feel uncomfortable?

The presence of a non-Ismaili in a Jamat Khana would definitely make us uncomfortable.

I am also married to a non-Ismaili and I feel that it is not fair for my spouse to stand outside to see the Imam. As it is, to convert into Ismailism is a very difficult process.

However, I think during Deedar, a special place should be set up for non-Ismaili spouses, where Imam would stop on his way out and acknowledge them and offer a few words and thank the non-Ismaili spouses for accompanying and assisting their Ismaili spouses and Ismaili children (family) to the deedar. Many non-Ismaili spouses have shown considerable desire in seeing Imam close up, but unfortunately, this has not been possible, even in the western countries.

Not only in Tajikistan, but also in Syria, Imam had addressed Ismailis and non-Ismailis alike. These are the countries where we should be more scared, as they consider us non-Muslims.

In 2005 there was a big "thing" about non-Ismaili spouses would be welcome during deedar. It was not clarified that they would be moved from building to building in toronto and would not be allowed to see the Imam. Some spouses, when they realised that they would not be able to see the Imam, walked out and stood outside the Deedar Hall behind barricades to get a glimpse of Imam. Why, did they then say that non-Ismaili spouses were welcome?

This was not a very prudent thing to do. Such an attitude makes people think that we consider ourselves superior to others. That although we talk about pluralism and tolerance, we practice intoleance and secularism when it comes to our extended non-Ismaili families.

On the other hand, during Golden Jubilee telecast, non-Ismaili spouses were able to see the same telecast as their Ismaili spouses, although they were in different Halls. Mowla addressed us as His spiritual children, and non-Ismailis heard that too! This was a good approach.

Virgo2

reshma77 · Post by **reshma77** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:12 pm

Iam also married to a non-ismaili atleast our children should be allowed to become ismailis without any hesitation i want to bring my daughter to jamatkhana and even she wants to come but i cant get her and cant answer her question. she says even i love YAA ALI BAAPA then why i can't come to jamatkhana

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:11 pm

reshma77 wrote:Iam also married to a non-ismaili atleast our children should be allowed to become ismailis without any hesitation i want to bring my daughter to jamatkhana and even she wants to come but i cant get her and cant answer her question. she says even i love YAA ALI BAAPA then why i can't come to jamatkhana

Has she given baiyat to the Imam?

Shams

luminous786 · Post by **luminous786** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:09 am

Thank you for all the responses thus far.  A few other things I would like to mention. I also hope other will join this discussion.

Virgo2 wrote:
Imam is our Ulil-Amr, and only those who have given bayah to him are admitted in our Jamat Khana. Allah has vested knowledge in our Imam, knowledge that our non-Ismaili Muslims or other faiths can never accept or comprehend. As brother Shams points out, Ismailis follow whatever Imam says without asking questions. Non-Ismailis will not and they will ask questions and ridicule us.
 

I see your point and I have heard this before, but I am not convinced by this. Many other faiths have rituals similar to bayah. For example, Christians are baptized, but this doesn't preclude non-Christians from attending a church service.

I agree when you say our non-Ismaili Muslims or other faiths can never accept the knowledge that Allah has vested in our Imam without being an Ismaili themselves.  In bringing them to jamatkhana I do not believe we are asking them to accept our faith, but it is a stepping stone to learning about our religion.

I disagree when you say they cannot comprehend our faith.  An Ismaili child that receives bayah cannot understand it either and it is something that they will learn through regular practice with their family, through religous education classes, etc. If they cannot comprehend it, surely they will ask questions and become more familiar with the faith. 

I agree that Ismailis will follow whatever the Imam tells us, but look back at the current Imam's firmans. What has he said that was controversial?He promotes unity, good health, respect for women, education, strong faith, etc. In addition, we say Ismailism is a religion of intellect. Naturally, questions will arise when one is practicing religion of intellect. I don't see questions as a bad thing. To your other point, I do not believe a spouse will ridicule osnes faith. If anything they would respect it. If there were certain things they do not understand they will ask questions. Being able to attend Jamatkhana and attend Didar will promote curiousity and discussion which I think are good things. For example, over my life there have been times that I have attended churches, synagogues, hindu temples and masjids for various reasons. I did not understand everything I saw and sought to understand it. I did not ridicule it and I'm not sure everyone would act the same way, but surely if anyone would treat it with respect, it would be ones spouse. 

Virgo2 wrote:
However, I do not agree with brother Shams "vulgar" comparison, even though I have utmost respect for him.
 

I too do not agree with his comparison. It was ignorant and crude.

 
Virgo2 wrote: 

I agree here, but a non-Ismaili spouse is not a stranger and is a part of the family.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:48 am

luminous786 wrote:Thank you for all the responses thus far.  A few other things I would like to mention. I also hope other will join this discussion.

 
Virgo2 wrote:
Imam is our Ulil-Amr, and only those who have given bayah to him are admitted in our Jamat Khana. Allah has vested knowledge in our Imam, knowledge that our non-Ismaili Muslims or other faiths can never accept or comprehend. As brother Shams points out, Ismailis follow whatever Imam says without asking questions. Non-Ismailis will not and they will ask questions and ridicule us.
 

I see your point and I have heard this before, but I am not convinced by this. Many other faiths have rituals similar to bayah. For example, Christians are baptized, but this doesn't preclude non-Christians from attending a church service.

I agree when you say our non-Ismaili Muslims or other faiths can never accept the knowledge that Allah has vested in our Imam without being an Ismaili themselves.  In bringing them to jamatkhana I do not believe we are asking them to accept our faith, but it is a stepping stone to learning about our religion.

I disagree when you say they cannot comprehend our faith.  An Ismaili child that receives bayah cannot understand it either and it is something that they will learn through regular practice with their family, through religous education classes, etc. If they cannot comprehend it, surely they will ask questions and become more familiar with the faith. 

I agree that Ismailis will follow whatever the Imam tells us, but look back at the current Imam's firmans. What has he said that was controversial?He promotes unity, good health, respect for women, education, strong faith, etc. In addition, we say Ismailism is a religion of intellect. Naturally, questions will arise when one is practicing religion of intellect. I don't see questions as a bad thing. To your other point, I do not believe a spouse will ridicule osnes faith. If anything they would respect it. If there were certain things they do not understand they will ask questions. Being able to attend Jamatkhana and attend Didar will promote curiousity and discussion which I think are good things. For example, over my life there have been times that I have attended churches, synagogues, hindu temples and masjids for various reasons. I did not understand everything I saw and sought to understand it. I did not ridicule it and I'm not sure everyone would act the same way, but surely if anyone would treat it with respect, it would be ones spouse. 

Virgo2 wrote: 

I too do not agree with his comparison. It was ignorant and crude.

a0197572 · Post by **a0197572** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:14 am

Not allowing non-initiates during private spiritual practice is not exclusive to Ismailis. Many sufi sects and other esoteric tariqahs do the same. Let us not forget that the spiritual bond between the congregation and the Murshid and the presence of the Noor of Allah are concepts that would be foreign to those who have not undertaken baiyat. During the foundation laying cermony of Dubai Ismaili Center, Hazar Imam openly proclaimed to other muslims that the prayer hall "will be space reserved for traditions and practices specific to the Shia Ismaili tariqah of Islam." To me that is the end of the argument. Imam's word is final and binding notwithstanding what non-Ismaili spouses may feel about it. As he has said repeatedly, in tariqah matters, only the Imam decides.

klalji786 · Post by **klalji786** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:07 am

YAM,

A couple of thoughts...

1) Historically, Ismailis have suffered great persucution especially during the end of the Fatimid Empire. During this tme, ISmailis were forced into exile and had to practice their faith in secrecy. The intimate practice of the faith (viewed as blasphemous by others) made the bond between the murshid and murid immensley strong. Since then, ismailis have always practiced in private as our rites and rituals are historically based and are betwen those who have taken bayyah and their imam. There are classes offered toexplain these to non-ismailis, but until an individual decides to provide allegiance to imam they are restrcited from observing what happends between a child and their father.

2) The second reason has to do with the soul. We are an esoteric faith If you are engrossed in conversation with someone, and a 3rd party enters, your attention will detract and you will be distracted by the 3rd party. Likewise, during jk ceremonies, our soul is (or should be) in interaction with imam or the universal soul. So if a third party (non-ismaili) enters, the world of the sould can become distracted. We must consciously understand there are many different dimensions existing simultaneaously. We must do whatever we can to ensure efficient bonds between our soul and the imam. Bhayya brings the soul in line with those who submit to the command our mowla.

luminous786 · Post by **luminous786** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:32 am

Thank you for the quote.

a0197572 wrote: During the foundation laying cermony of Dubai Ismaili Center, Hazar Imam openly proclaimed to other muslims that the prayer hall "will be space reserved for traditions and practices specific to the Shia Ismaili tariqah of Islam." To me that is the end of the argument. Imam's word is final and binding notwithstanding what non-Ismaili spouses may feel about it.

I agree, with you the the Imam's word is final, but I do not see how this quote prohibits non-Ismaili spouse from participating in Jamatkhana ceremonies. Surely, the space will continue to be used for traditions and practices specific to the Shia Ismaili tariqah of Islam whether a non-Ismaili spouse is present or not. The presence of a non-Ismaili spouse does not have anything to do with the quote...

I realize people tend to get rather emotional about issues associated with religion so please recognize that I am just trying to promote a discussion around this topic as it is important to me. I have no intention to offend anyone.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:34 am

luminous786 wrote:Thank you for the quote.

a0197572 wrote: During the foundation laying cermony of Dubai Ismaili Center, Hazar Imam openly proclaimed to other muslims that the prayer hall "will be space reserved for traditions and practices specific to the Shia Ismaili tariqah of Islam." To me that is the end of the argument. Imam's word is final and binding notwithstanding what non-Ismaili spouses may feel about it.
I agree, with you the the Imam's word is final, but I do not see how this quote prohibits non-Ismaili spouse from participating in Jamatkhana ceremonies. Surely, the space will continue to be used for traditions and practices specific to the Shia Ismaili tariqah of Islam whether a non-Ismaili spouse is present or not. The presence of a non-Ismaili spouse does not have anything to do with the quote...

I realize people tend to get rather emotional about issues associated with religion so please recognize that I am just trying to promote a discussion around this topic as it is important to me. I have no intention to offend anyone.

As an Ismaili, I personally do not want anyone that is not an Ismaili present at any of my religious rites and ceremonies - because those rites and ceremonies are only for Ismailies.
By allowing nonismailies to attend jamatkhana during prayer times..you are reducing the importance and the value of Baiyat.
Being able to attend Jamatkhana during prayer times and darbar/deedar times is a privilege accorded to an individual by the virtue of giving baiyat.

Shams

a0197572 · Post by **a0197572** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:46 am

Luminous,

Let's get a little rhetorical. Will these non-ismailis sit with the other present jamat? Would you do shah-jo-deedar and hai-zinda to them? What significance will that gesture then have to them and also to you? Would you let them participate in niaz and dua/mehmani kriya? Where do you draw the line? Do you advocate non-ismailis being able to attend private mandlis as passive observers as well? You see where I am going...

Do you let outsiders into your house who just want to observe your daily family life? Even if they promise not to disturb you, their very presence will be a distraction for your family. I guarantee you that.

I agree with Shams that I would also not want non-ismailis to be present within the prayer hall because they have not taken the Bayat and have not undertaken the thought process and the commitment to be part of our spiritual brotherhood. There is nothing wrong with that and we as Ismailis have no reason to be ashamed of that. Our faith and practices are replete with spiritual and emotional bonds with the Imam. We are not simply performing rituals for the sake of performing rituals . Having non-Ismailis will do nothing to enhance that experience but will have real potential to distract from it.

sohaelbabwani · Post by **sohaelbabwani** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:26 am

First of all there is a difference between a Jamat Khana and a mosque. The Jamat Khana is the house of Mawlana Hazar Imam. The Noor of Mawlana Hazar Imam is always present in the Jamat Khana while it is not in other mosques or church or temples. In fact the Christians even wear footwear in their church, we don’t. As we being his spiritual children, we are the spiritual members of the Jamat Khana. The concept of Noor is only present in Ismailis. This concept is absent whether we refer to non-Ismaili Muslims, Christians, Hindus or any other faith. Mawlana Hazar Imam is the holder of the Noor of Allah and that is why we obey his Farmans.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

office" /><o:p> </o:p>Mawlana Hazar Imam has always time and time told the Jamat to come to Jamat Khana and be regular in the prayers. When ever he said this he always said “When you COME to Jamat Khana” and not “when you go to Jamat Khana”. This is because Jamat Khana is his house/home. His Noor is present in all the Jamat Khanas. Therefore it is the Imam to decide who can come to his house and who can’t.<o:p> </o:p>Once when Mawlana Hazar Imam was asked this question by our senior missionary that is it true that we should not allow non-Ismailis to enter Jamat Khana, Mawlana Hazar Imam said we don’t want any spectators or onlookers in the Jamat Khana. Suppose you are having a good time with your family and sharing some jokes and everyone is discussing some light matter. And suppose an outsider comes to your house, you won’t mind the outsider sitting in your house, but the environment of the house would definitely change. It won’t be the same that was before.<o:p> </o:p>So if your spouse is really interested in our faith, first convert her to Ismailism. Explain her what Ismailism is all about and what are the similarities and differences between a Muslim and an Ismaili. She can learn or discover our religion without being converted and she need not go to Jamat Khana to see all the kriyas that we do. You can explain the matter to her or let her get all the information through  knowledgeable person. And let the final decision be of hers. Suppose if you want to take an admission in the school, you will not tell the school that I will come to school for a month and see how the teachers teach and if I am satisfied I will join the school. If you want to join a school you can ask the students who study in the school about the school and then make a decision. This is not a 30 day trial version of the software. Faith is to be taken seriously.<o:p> </o:p>We all should be familiar with this concept and you can explain this concept to your wife. We believe in the concept of Noor that the non-Ismailis don’t believe in. In fact they don’t we know about the concept; to believe it or not is out of question. Therefore when we practice many kriyas in our Jamat Khana, they may not accept or understand.<o:p> </o:p>Noor means light. And Prophet Muhammad said “I and Aly are from the same Noor (Light).”<o:p> </o:p>Even the Holy Qur’an speaks about Noor.<o:p> </o:p>O mankind! Now hath a proof from your Lord come unto you, and We have sent down unto you a manifest Noor (Light) (4:174)<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you Noor (Light) from Allah and manifest Scripture (5:15)<o:p> </o:p>In the above verses the scripture denotes to the Holy Qur’an while The Noor denotes Prophet Muhammad and The Holy Imams.<o:p> </o:p>Allah is the Noor (Light) of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Noor (Light) upon Noor (Light). Allah guideth unto His Noor (Light) whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things. (24:35)<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>In the above verse Allah says that He is the Noor. Noor upon Noor is the chain of Imams and the continuation of the Imamat. Further Allah says He guides to whom he wishes through his Noor.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>In the very next verse the concept of Noor and Jamat Khana is mentioned.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>(This lamp is found) in houses which Allah hath allowed to be exalted and that His name shall be remembered therein. Therein do offer praise to Him at morn and evening. (24:36)<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>Hope I have answered your question.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p>

sohaelbabwani · Post by **sohaelbabwani** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:33 am

First of all there is a difference between a Jamat Khana and a mosque. The Jamat Khana is the house of Mawlana Hazar Imam. The Noor of Mawlana Hazar Imam is always present in the Jamat Khana while it is not in other mosques or church or temples. In fact the Christians even wear footwear in their church, we don’t. As we being his spiritual children, we are the spiritual members of the Jamat Khana. The concept of Noor is only present in Ismailis. This concept is absent whether we refer to non-Ismaili Muslims, Christians, Hindus or any other faith. Mawlana Hazar Imam is the holder of the Noor of Allah and that is why we obey his Farmans.
Mawlana Hazar Imam has always time and time told the Jamat to come to Jamat Khana and be regular in the prayers. When ever he said this he always said “When you COME to Jamat Khana” and not “when you go to Jamat Khana”. This is because Jamat Khana is his house/home. His Noor is present in all the Jamat Khanas. Therefore it is the Imam to decide who can come to his house and who can’t.
Once when Mawlana Hazar Imam was asked this question by our senior missionary that is it true that we should not allow non-Ismailis to enter Jamat Khana, Mawlana Hazar Imam said we don’t want any spectators or onlookers in the Jamat Khana. Suppose you are having a good time with your family and sharing some jokes and everyone is discussing some light matter. And suppose an outsider comes to your house, you won’t mind the outsider sitting in your house, but the environment of the house would definitely change. It won’t be the same that was before.
So if your spouse is really interested in our faith, first convert her to Ismailism. Explain her what Ismailism is all about and what are the similarities and differences between a Muslim and an Ismaili. She can learn or discover our religion without being converted and she need not go to Jamat Khana to see all the kriyas that we do. You can explain the matter to her or let her get all the information through  knowledgeable person. And let the final decision be of hers. Suppose if you want to take an admission in the school, you will not tell the school that I will come to school for a month and see how the teachers teach and if I am satisfied I will join the school. If you want to join a school you can ask the students who study in the school about the school and then make a decision. This is not a 30 day trial version of the software. Faith is to be taken seriously.
We all should be familiar with this concept and you can explain this concept to your wife. We believe in the concept of Noor that the non-Ismailis don’t believe in. In fact they don’t we know about the concept; to believe it or not is out of question. Therefore when we practice many kriyas in our Jamat Khana, they may not accept or understand.
Noor means light. And Prophet Muhammad said “I and Aly are from the same Noor (Light).”
Even the Holy Qur’an speaks about Noor.
O mankind! Now hath a proof from your Lord come unto you, and We have sent down unto you a manifest Noor (Light) (4:174)
O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you Noor (Light) from Allah and manifest Scripture (5:15)
In the above verses the scripture denotes to the Holy Qur’an while The Noor denotes Prophet Muhammad and The Holy Imams.
Allah is the Noor (Light) of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Noor (Light) upon Noor (Light). Allah guideth unto His Noor (Light) whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things. (24:35)
In the above verse Allah says that He is the Noor. Noor upon Noor is the chain of Imams and the continuation of the Imamat. Further Allah says He guides to whom he wishes through his Noor.
In the very next verse the concept of Noor and Jamat Khana is mentioned.
(This lamp is found) in houses which Allah hath allowed to be exalted and that His name shall be remembered therein. Therein do offer praise to Him at morn and evening. (24:36)Hope I have answered your question.

suthex · Post by **suthex** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:53 am

I am an non-Ismaili spouse, and found your question interesting (as with some of the replies). I must tell you that during Du'a and other JK religious ceremonies, I fully understand and appreciate that unless I have been given baiyat to the Imam, I am not permitted into the JK. I have of course visited many JK around the globe, have attended social gatherings, shows and funerals (in both social halls and otherwise), but never considered it my right to attend religious ceremonies. I also had the great honour of greeting Imam's arrival for Darbar in Kampala, and was equally honoured to stand outside the JK and see his arrival and departure. Such blessings cannot be understated. I suspect your loved one will have equally satisfying experiences in and around any Darbar event(s). He or she has chosen to remain outside the religious aspects of your Ismaili culture, and trust me, while he/she will feel left out of the celebrations, he/she will also be excited for you. I must also share that I stood with two non-ismaili children in Kampala who could not understand why they were barred from JK. Luckily, Imam's head of security allowed the spouse and her two children stand with me in the open air, to see his arrival and departure. I know they were blessed to experience this, and perhaps somehow this woman will allow her children to be given baiyat to the Imam at some point in the future. For me and my wife, we had always agreed that children would be raised as Ismailis, a decision we undertook before marriage. I hope your Darbar, in whichever country it may take place, is a joyful one. Your Imam is coming to you. I recall Imam's head of security telling me that Imam must not be interupted during his visit to JK, that his entire focus is on the Jamat. You too must ensure your entire focus is on the Imam and his words. Your spouse understands. He/she is human, and human emotions may sometimes rise to the surface, but from my personal experience, the celebration, prayers and receiving of Imam's blessings must be your only concern.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:05 pm

suthex wrote:I am an non-Ismaili spouse, and found your question interesting (as with some of the replies). I must tell you that during Du'a and other JK religious ceremonies, I fully understand and appreciate that unless I have been given baiyat to the Imam, I am not permitted into the JK. I have of course visited many JK around the globe, have attended social gatherings, shows and funerals (in both social halls and otherwise), but never considered it my right to attend religious ceremonies. I also had the great honour of greeting Imam's arrival for Darbar in Kampala, and was equally honoured to stand outside the JK and see his arrival and departure. Such blessings cannot be understated. I suspect your loved one will have equally satisfying experiences in and around any Darbar event(s). He or she has chosen to remain outside the religious aspects of your Ismaili culture, and trust me, while he/she will feel left out of the celebrations, he/she will also be excited for you. I must also share that I stood with two non-ismaili children in Kampala who could not understand why they were barred from JK. Luckily, Imam's head of security allowed the spouse and her two children stand with me in the open air, to see his arrival and departure. I know they were blessed to experience this, and perhaps somehow this woman will allow her children to be given baiyat to the Imam at some point in the future. For me and my wife, we had always agreed that children would be raised as Ismailis, a decision we undertook before marriage. I hope your Darbar, in whichever country it may take place, is a joyful one. Your Imam is coming to you. I recall Imam's head of security telling me that Imam must not be interupted during his visit to JK, that his entire focus is on the Jamat. You too must ensure your entire focus is on the Imam and his words. Your spouse understands. He/she is human, and human emotions may sometimes rise to the surface, but from my personal experience, the celebration, prayers and receiving of Imam's blessings must be your only concern.

Thank you for your touching words.

Shams

Global · Post by **Global** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:57 pm

reshma77 wrote:Iam also married to a non-ismaili atleast our children should be allowed to become ismailis without any hesitation i want to bring my daughter to jamatkhana and even she wants to come but i cant get her and cant answer her question. she says even i love YAA ALI BAAPA then why i can't come to jamatkhana

It's between you and your spouse how your children should be raised. If one of the spouses' is non-ismaili a child will be confused. Once you have determined in your family which direction you should lead him or her then have the child do a bayyat. I don't know what age your child is but make a decision fast before she or he grows up and is left in limbo to decide for her or himself. A structured life is the key.

Global · Post by **Global** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:05 pm

luminous786 wrote:We often consider Ismailism as a progressive faith. We often take pride in how tolerant we are of other religions. In recent years, Hazar Imam has often spoken of pluralism. The word 'pluralism' has many definitions, the most common one being , "the affirmation and acceptance of diversity."

While we talk of this concept, pluralism, there seems to be an underlying disconnect with our acceptance of non-Ismailis in our jamatkhanas. In full disclosure this is something that is very personal to me as I am married to a non-Ismaili and while I would never force my spouse to convert to Ismailism (nor could I if I wanted to), I feel it is very important for ones spouse to see/experience our faith first hand for a couple of reasons.

1) It is difficult for one to consider converting if they are treated as an outsider and not welcome within our places of worship

2) Many other faiths (Christianity, Judaism, etc.) allow people of other faiths into their places of worship which one could argue makes them more tolerant of other faiths.

3) It is very important for a family to be together on special occassions such as Imamat Day whether they are Ismaili or not. It promotes a sense of unity.

So I have a few questions that I would like to open up to the forum.

1) Why are non-Ismailis and non-Ismaili spouses in particular not able to attend Jamatkhana?

2) Why are non-Ismaili spouses not able to participate with their families during Didar? From what I remember a number of non-Ismailis were present when the Imam visited Tajikistan.

I have heard a few responses that I will list here, but I am not convinced yet so if anyone has a good answer, I would certainly appreciate it.

Non-ismailis are not allowed to attend Jamatkhana or participate in Didar because:

1) The bond between the Imam and the Murid would not be as strong if a non-Ismaili is present.

2) Ismailis are not concerned about all non-Ismailis, but only other Muslims as Ismailis practice their faith quite differently from the broader Muslim community

Global · Post by **Global** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:19 pm

Global wrote:
luminous786 wrote:We often consider Ismailism as a progressive faith. We often take pride in how tolerant we are of other religions. In recent years, Hazar Imam has often spoken of pluralism. The word 'pluralism' has many definitions, the most common one being , "the affirmation and acceptance of diversity."

While we talk of this concept, pluralism, there seems to be an underlying disconnect with our acceptance of non-Ismailis in our jamatkhanas. In full disclosure this is something that is very personal to me as I am married to a non-Ismaili and while I would never force my spouse to convert to Ismailism (nor could I if I wanted to), I feel it is very important for ones spouse to see/experience our faith first hand for a couple of reasons.

1) It is difficult for one to consider converting if they are treated as an outsider and not welcome within our places of worship

2) Many other faiths (Christianity, Judaism, etc.) allow people of other faiths into their places of worship which one could argue makes them more tolerant of other faiths.

3) It is very important for a family to be together on special occassions such as Imamat Day whether they are Ismaili or not. It promotes a sense of unity.

So I have a few questions that I would like to open up to the forum.

1) Why are non-Ismailis and non-Ismaili spouses in particular not able to attend Jamatkhana?

2) Why are non-Ismaili spouses not able to participate with their families during Didar? From what I remember a number of non-Ismailis were present when the Imam visited Tajikistan.

I have heard a few responses that I will list here, but I am not convinced yet so if anyone has a good answer, I would certainly appreciate it.

Non-ismailis are not allowed to attend Jamatkhana or participate in Didar because:

1) The bond between the Imam and the Murid would not be as strong if a non-Ismaili is present.

2) Ismailis are not concerned about all non-Ismailis, but only other Muslims as Ismailis practice their faith quite differently from the broader Muslim community

A non Ismaili spouse should first read and inquire and acquire knowledge about Ismaili faith. If he or she feels that she needs to convert then have the Baiyat and all doors are open. If not ready or does not want to convert than one should be satisfied with the practice of faith they are indulging in. Today, the world is on our fingertips with the internet and the like. Curiosity can be cured through those means. Sacredness of a place should be respected at all times.

sadrudin · Post by **sadrudin** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:43 pm

The ismaili spouse should goto Mukhi and asked to give Bayaa for children and it is simple and easy to do.

You need to understand our Jamat Khana is not typical prayer place (church, mosque or temple) which all are dedicated to GOD where as Jamat Khana is limited to the member family of Imam - by taking the bayaa which makes the member as a part of Imam's family.

Hope this answer you question.

reshma77 · Post by **reshma77** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:42 pm

i taken her for bayat but mukhisaheb said no he said i need my husbands letter i gave him that also as my husband has no objection but the other process is very long i have make a stamp paper and write in that now my husband is not ready for going in legal procedure he says if u want her to go jamatkhana u can take her why all this he also gave in writing htat he has no objection

sereya · Post by **sereya** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:44 pm

I think you need to go to your council and get them to help, as far as i know if your husband has given you a letter and the approval is got from the council then your child can become an ismaili.if the niyat is there all will be well in the end.

asifmomin1 · Post by **asifmomin1** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:00 am

Ya Ali Madad,
In my opinion many Ismaili's with non Ismaili spouses are having a hard time dealing with the religious aspect of their life is because they ignored what our pir has thought us in Ginan; Aapni naath choodi pur naath vehvaar na kiyjay. I don't know the exact words but its to that effect. With out first step wrong we cannnot expect things to be smooth ahead.

It's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Please forgive me if I offended anyone in anyways. Ya Ali Madad.

ShamshtabrezDhirani · Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:29 am

The meaning of “Darbar” is “Royal Court”
The meaning of “Deedar” is “Glimpse”
Blessed are “spiritual children” by their “spiritual parent” who quenches thirst of His murids yearning soul for His Holy Glimpse (Deedar).

In Ismaili History right from the time of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Hazrat Ali, the first Ismaili Imam, it has been a tradition to hold Darbar in which faithful followers (who have pledged Spiritual Oath of Allegiance) to attend such occasions. Darbar primarily and essentially means “Royal Court” where “Murids” congregate for “Holy Deedar”. It is private, personal, and privilege meeting between the Imam of the Time and His murids.

The foundation of Ismaili religion is laid on intelligence, absolute faith and love for the Imam of the Time. His individual murid acknowledges this fact in his soul, heart and mind. This relationship is sacred. There is the spiritual bond between the two. Religious ceremonies are solemn and private, highly emotional events, which dwells in the heart of the Imam and murid at the same moment. Spiritual oath of allegiance is a prerequisite for all murids and when accepted by the Imam of the Time becomes permanent feature in murid’s spiritual and material life.

Darbar and Deedar in places other than Jamatkhana are still private. These are arranged and held by His knowledge and permission. And religious ceremonies performed in Jamatkhana are private and solemn events.

Pluralism is an Ismaili “slogan” that is applicable to everything in life. However, nobody should ever compromise personal and private matters such as personal information, love, affection, bond, feelings, oath of allegiance, submission, and religion etc. etc.

All religions are not the same. Ismaili religion is different. It has Imam of the Time.

Bashir786 · Post by **Bashir786** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:42 pm

ShamsB, thank you for your informative posts. Keep up the good work brother.

Bashir

reshma77 · Post by **reshma77** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:00 am

i know i have done wrong but some times things r not in our hands they just happen and have got my part of punishment also u don't have to say sorry u r right and mowla has always helped me and i can never leave him i had gone to the council but they say bring legal paper this was some 2 years back now i don't know what is the rule.

rmkhan23 · Post by **rmkhan23** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:31 pm

Ya Ali Madad In case any of you were wondering, there will be programs during darbar that are dedicated specifically for non-Ismaili spouses. In respect to the Chicago darbar, a project manager is currently being appointed to take charge of the non-Ismaili program for the festivities. Non-Ismaili spouses and children will not be allowed in during jamat khana time however will have the opportunity, inshAllah, to see Hazar Imam enter and exit. Shams Bhai, I can understand the contradictions that you feel exist in the community when dealing with the issues of non-Ismaili spouses and their admittance into jk. I myself am an non-Ismaili spouse and often have felt the pain of feeling unwanted in a community that advocates and prides itself of its progressive beliefs and traditions. However, as many Ismaili members have responded before me, being a member of the jamat means that you have accepted with all your being the responsibilities, beliefs, and traditions of an Ismaili. And although it makes me flinch to say this, a non-Ismaili member does not accept nor believe such. Why permit someone who is just there to observe? Forgive me for I cannot state my opinions as eloquently as some of the members, but I hope you understand what it is I am trying to say. If your spouse desires conversion, by all means go through the process. It is a tedious process I admit, but it is well worth it if your heart and soul desire conversion into the Ismaili taariqah.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:10 pm

rmkhan23 wrote:Ya Ali Madad In case any of you were wondering, there will be programs during darbar that are dedicated specifically for non-Ismaili spouses. In respect to the Chicago darbar, a project manager is currently being appointed to take charge of the non-Ismaili program for the festivities. Non-Ismaili spouses and children will not be allowed in during jamat khana time however will have the opportunity, inshAllah, to see Hazar Imam enter and exit. Shams Bhai, I can understand the contradictions that you feel exist in the community when dealing with the issues of non-Ismaili spouses and their admittance into jk. I myself am an non-Ismaili spouse and often have felt the pain of feeling unwanted in a community that advocates and prides itself of its progressive beliefs and traditions. However, as many Ismaili members have responded before me, being a member of the jamat means that you have accepted with all your being the responsibilities, beliefs, and traditions of an Ismaili. And although it makes me flinch to say this, a non-Ismaili member does not accept nor believe such. Why permit someone who is just there to observe? Forgive me for I cannot state my opinions as eloquently as some of the members, but I hope you understand what it is I am trying to say. If your spouse desires conversion, by all means go through the process. It is a tedious process I admit, but it is well worth it if your heart and soul desire conversion into the Ismaili taariqah.

I think you expressed your feelings very well.

Shams

arshad1988 · Post by **arshad1988** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:48 pm

YAM everyone,

I just found a few verses of Surah An-Nur, which I thought were interesting. In addition to Mowla's firmans, I thought this was another reason. Maybe it's not meant for why non-ismailies can't enter Jamatkhane, but a very plausible interpretation of the verse:

24:27. O ye who believe! enter not houses other than your own, until ye have asked permission and saluted those in them: that is best for you, in order that ye may heed (what is seemly).
24:28. If ye find no one in the house, enter not until permission is given to you: if ye are asked to go back, go back: that makes for greater purity for yourselves: and Allah knows well all that ye do.

Where it says "...until ye have asked permission and saluted those in them..." - I interpret it as giving allegiance to Mowla. Any other inputs / additions and interpretations are greatly appreciated.

-Arshad

txlawstudent · Post by **txlawstudent** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:10 pm

FYI- all Non-Ismaili spouses and their children were told to meet with Mowla after he left the hall. About 90 of them stood in about 3-4 groups along the red carpet and he addressed each group saying the following to each of them:
- I give you blessings to and your families for happiness
- I give you blessings to the children that some of you are expecting
- Please celebrate and participate with your families today

Cheers

www.ismaili.net

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