Giriyazari tasbih
Giriyazari tasbih
Ya Ali Madad. I would like to know when did the Mushkil Aasan/Giriyazariji Tasbih (after our daily Dua) originate? and why it does not start with Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem?. Also why do we supplicate direct to Ali? when in our daily Dua we say Wa Bi Haqqi (Through our...) or supplicate direct to Allah Tala (4th part and 5th part). I understand this is a very sensitive topic but I need to know as I have been reading a lot of the Quran and Allah Tala states to ask him for our needs, so Im confused. Help Alwaezes!!!
Ya Ali Madad,
First of all it must be understood that Ismaili interpretation of Islam is monorealism and NOT monotheism. By monorealism it is meant that while God is one he is also manifested in the creation, i.e. he is not somewhere out there in the heavens. In this regard our metaphysics involves three aspects of God; God the Essence, God the Noor and God the Creation.
God interacts with his creation through the means of his Noor, or Universal Intellect. This is alluded to in the Ayat "Allah is the light of the heavens and the Earth". According to our interpretation, that Noor is manifested in our Imam/Pir. Hence when we use the name of the Imam/Pir we are invoking the Noor aspect of God. It is through the Noor that God hears your prayer and it is through the Noor that he responds to the prayer. That is what is meant by the notion of intercession. It also gives us the sense of praying to someone very immediate and close and not someone out there in heaven, i.e. there is an intimacy created by invoking the Imam.
Also by taking the oath (bayah) we acknowledge that the Imam is our spiritual support. Hence our prayer acquire 'wings' when directed towards the Imam. He also prays on our behalf and he being the purest, his prayers are more powerful.
First of all it must be understood that Ismaili interpretation of Islam is monorealism and NOT monotheism. By monorealism it is meant that while God is one he is also manifested in the creation, i.e. he is not somewhere out there in the heavens. In this regard our metaphysics involves three aspects of God; God the Essence, God the Noor and God the Creation.
God interacts with his creation through the means of his Noor, or Universal Intellect. This is alluded to in the Ayat "Allah is the light of the heavens and the Earth". According to our interpretation, that Noor is manifested in our Imam/Pir. Hence when we use the name of the Imam/Pir we are invoking the Noor aspect of God. It is through the Noor that God hears your prayer and it is through the Noor that he responds to the prayer. That is what is meant by the notion of intercession. It also gives us the sense of praying to someone very immediate and close and not someone out there in heaven, i.e. there is an intimacy created by invoking the Imam.
Also by taking the oath (bayah) we acknowledge that the Imam is our spiritual support. Hence our prayer acquire 'wings' when directed towards the Imam. He also prays on our behalf and he being the purest, his prayers are more powerful.
I have never heard Hazar Imam or any of the past Imams to say, direct your prayers to me. All our beloved Hazar Imam wants us to do is to worship Allah Tala alone. Hazar Imam always gives the example of the Beloved Prophet (PBUH) in all matters, and always speaks of the history of Imam Husayn and the murids who accompanied him, but I have never heard Hazar Imam to say pray to me or even bow down. The Noor of Allah was in all the Prophets as well as Imams. Remembering Ali constantly, reminds us of his purity and devotion to Allah which we should also try to attain in all worldly matters. <BR><BR>Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah says in an extract of his Farman - When you bow down in the worship of God, you must implore Him to help you to attain your true home. Dar-es-salaam 09/09/1899<BR><BR>I believe the esoteric part is for our beloved Imam, to interpret the faith and not for us. As Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah says in an extract of his Farman- Those who have o­nly superficial knowledge of the faith have fantastic notions about me. They believe my job is to heal the sick. This is not my task. My task is to show you the way to the truth, so that you may achieve your real destiny. Dar-es-salaam 09/09/1899<BR><BR>Again I appreciate your views and would like to enlighten my thoughts as these are all concerning Tariqah matters and Akhirat, which is important as Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has stated in many of his Farmans. Unfortunately not many Jamati members are blessed with answers regarding this sensitive matter and other matters of the din.
When we call upon Ali, we are not simply reminding ourselves of his purity but to invoke his presence.
KACH KERA : FEBRUARY 2, 1903
"You must continuously make an effort to strengthen your iman. We are
always with you. Whenever you remember us we are Ever-Present before
you. We reside within your hearts."
Consider the following farmans on intercession of Ali.
BOMBAY : APRIL 12, 1893
Inshahallah, because you recognize and accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, He too
shall accept and recognize you. Because of this recognition, you shall
be graced with the Divine company of Murtaza Ali at the Well of Kawthar
where Murtaza Ali will offer you the Spiritual Nectar from the Well of
Kawthar. Inshahallah !
BOMBAY : APRIL 14, 1893
On the Day of Judgement, Mawla Murtaza Ali will intercede on your behalf
and will hold your hand and escort you to Paradise. There to the true
believers he will offer Holy Water from the Well of Kawthar. Inshahal1
ah !
KACH KERA : FEBRUARY 2, 1903
"You must continuously make an effort to strengthen your iman. We are
always with you. Whenever you remember us we are Ever-Present before
you. We reside within your hearts."
Consider the following farmans on intercession of Ali.
BOMBAY : APRIL 12, 1893
Inshahallah, because you recognize and accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, He too
shall accept and recognize you. Because of this recognition, you shall
be graced with the Divine company of Murtaza Ali at the Well of Kawthar
where Murtaza Ali will offer you the Spiritual Nectar from the Well of
Kawthar. Inshahallah !
BOMBAY : APRIL 14, 1893
On the Day of Judgement, Mawla Murtaza Ali will intercede on your behalf
and will hold your hand and escort you to Paradise. There to the true
believers he will offer Holy Water from the Well of Kawthar. Inshahal1
ah !
I have never heard Hazar Imam or any of our past Imams say, direct your prayers to me.
Imam Jafar As-Sadiq has said, "Allah is prayed through us, Imams".
In Code of Conduct, Majalis 11, Qazi Noman states: "Imam Jafar, peace be on him, says, "God is worshipped through us. He who obeys us obeys God and he who disobeys us disobeys God. God has emphatically declared that He will not take notice of the good deeds of anybody if they are not done through us, i.e. according to our instructions. We are the gate of God. We are His 'hujjats'. We are the guardians over His people and the guardians of His mysteries. We are the depositories of His knowledge."
Also, in code of Condct for the Followers of Imam, Qazi Noaman, quoting Sura 5:63 states:
The above verses show that those who wrong themselves cannot be forgiven unles they approach God through the Imams who are the gates of His mercy for His people and the medium of approach for the people.
Virgo2
Thank you Kmaherali for your reply.
This I am aware of, that Mawla Murtaza Ali will intercede for us in Paradise, that is if we have Worshipped Allah Tala alone, recognized the Prophet and Imam of the time, been Farman Badari and strived in the cause (in worldly matters) according to Islam. That is why I stated "remembering Ali in all worldly matters" in the last post, eg dealings in business matters, the way we socialise with people, etc, as Mawla Ali was an excellent example in manners, family matters etc .
What you have stated concerns the after life regarding Mawla Ali and the Well of Kawthar, which he will provide for us there InshAllah, and this I do not doubt at all. So should we still invoke Ali for our worldly sustenance etc?
Hazar Imam always says that he is ever with us, even when he is leaving after a Zahiri Deedar, and this I do not doubt at all too. But this means he is with us in our hearts and thoughts.
When we accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, we are proclaiming that we follow the advise of the Imam in our spiritual and worldly matters to guide us on Siratul Mustaqim. That is why I wanted to know when did the Giriyazari Tasbih originate and which Imam gave it to us?
The Jamat have a tendency to make up Du'as in the Jamat. For instance after an announcememnt they will say " May mowla....." is this correct?and is this the way Our Imam wants us to pray?
The latest trend in the Jamat is saying "Ya Ali" when greeting, and this has catched on with the majority of the Jamats (calling each other Ali). This is what I mean when I am asking such questions, because the Jamat make up half the things including actions during Du'a etc.
This I am aware of, that Mawla Murtaza Ali will intercede for us in Paradise, that is if we have Worshipped Allah Tala alone, recognized the Prophet and Imam of the time, been Farman Badari and strived in the cause (in worldly matters) according to Islam. That is why I stated "remembering Ali in all worldly matters" in the last post, eg dealings in business matters, the way we socialise with people, etc, as Mawla Ali was an excellent example in manners, family matters etc .
What you have stated concerns the after life regarding Mawla Ali and the Well of Kawthar, which he will provide for us there InshAllah, and this I do not doubt at all. So should we still invoke Ali for our worldly sustenance etc?
Hazar Imam always says that he is ever with us, even when he is leaving after a Zahiri Deedar, and this I do not doubt at all too. But this means he is with us in our hearts and thoughts.
When we accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, we are proclaiming that we follow the advise of the Imam in our spiritual and worldly matters to guide us on Siratul Mustaqim. That is why I wanted to know when did the Giriyazari Tasbih originate and which Imam gave it to us?
The Jamat have a tendency to make up Du'as in the Jamat. For instance after an announcememnt they will say " May mowla....." is this correct?and is this the way Our Imam wants us to pray?
The latest trend in the Jamat is saying "Ya Ali" when greeting, and this has catched on with the majority of the Jamats (calling each other Ali). This is what I mean when I am asking such questions, because the Jamat make up half the things including actions during Du'a etc.
Thank you Virgo2 for your reply. Ya Ali Madad
When you say Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (AS) said "Allah is praised through us."
I have heard this saying, and this brings me back to my original question as to why we pray directly to Ali and not through our Imam/s to Allah Tala, as in our Daily Du'a (Wa bi Haqqi) and through our....for our forgiveness, sustenance etc? Even though in the Qur'an it states to pray to Allah Tala directly for our shortcomings etc, as in the 4th part of Dua Allahumagh....and 5th part Rabanagh.....
I believe Salawaat is sufficient for the above too, as when we recite Salawaat we are sending blessings upon the Prophet (PBUH) and his Aal, and then when we ask for our needs after Salawaat, then Inshallah the prayer shall be accepted.
Also why doesn't the Tasbih start with Bimillahir Rahmanir Rahim? As Allah Tala comes first.
When you say Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (AS) said "Allah is praised through us."
I have heard this saying, and this brings me back to my original question as to why we pray directly to Ali and not through our Imam/s to Allah Tala, as in our Daily Du'a (Wa bi Haqqi) and through our....for our forgiveness, sustenance etc? Even though in the Qur'an it states to pray to Allah Tala directly for our shortcomings etc, as in the 4th part of Dua Allahumagh....and 5th part Rabanagh.....
I believe Salawaat is sufficient for the above too, as when we recite Salawaat we are sending blessings upon the Prophet (PBUH) and his Aal, and then when we ask for our needs after Salawaat, then Inshallah the prayer shall be accepted.
Also why doesn't the Tasbih start with Bimillahir Rahmanir Rahim? As Allah Tala comes first.
I believe all traditions that have come down to us have been prescribed or sanctioned by the Imam of the time. I have heard that at one point in time Imam Sultan Muhammad sat in JK (in Zanzibar) during the ceremonies and prescribed all the rite and ceremonies.shak00 wrote:
When we accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, we are proclaiming that we follow the advise of the Imam in our spiritual and worldly matters to guide us on Siratul Mustaqim. That is why I wanted to know when did the Giriyazari Tasbih originate and which Imam gave it to us?
The Jamat have a tendency to make up Du'as in the Jamat. For instance after an announcememnt they will say " May mowla....." is this correct?and is this the way Our Imam wants us to pray?
The latest trend in the Jamat is saying "Ya Ali" when greeting, and this has catched on with the majority of the Jamats (calling each other Ali). This is what I mean when I am asking such questions, because the Jamat make up half the things including actions during Du'a etc.
I do not think it is wrong to call 'Ya Mawla" if is meant 'Ya Ali' who in our tradition is the bearer of the Noor. It is the immanent facet of Allah that communicates with us. Hence it is very correct to call the Noor or pray to it.
'Ya ali' as a greating is just a short version of 'Ya Ali Madad" meaning 'may Ali help you'. There has been discussion of this under the subject 'YAA ALI MADAD' or 'YA ALI MADAD'. It is the thought that counts afterall.
Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah during his first visit to Zanzibar in 1899 during which He attended Jamat Khana daily and taught the Jamat how to do the rites and rituals pertaining to the practise of our faith, from Nandi to Ghat Pat Dua, to Channta, to how Mukhi/Kamadia Sahebs should act.kmaherali wrote:I believe all traditions that have come down to us have been prescribed or sanctioned by the Imam of the time. I have heard that at one point in time Imam Sultan Muhammad sat in JK (in Zanzibar) during the ceremonies and prescribed all the rite and ceremonies.shak00 wrote:
When we accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, we are proclaiming that we follow the advise of the Imam in our spiritual and worldly matters to guide us on Siratul Mustaqim. That is why I wanted to know when did the Giriyazari Tasbih originate and which Imam gave it to us?
The Jamat have a tendency to make up Du'as in the Jamat. For instance after an announcememnt they will say " May mowla....." is this correct?and is this the way Our Imam wants us to pray?
The latest trend in the Jamat is saying "Ya Ali" when greeting, and this has catched on with the majority of the Jamats (calling each other Ali). This is what I mean when I am asking such questions, because the Jamat make up half the things including actions during Du'a etc.
I do not think it is wrong to call 'Ya Mawla" if is meant 'Ya Ali' who in our tradition is the bearer of the Noor. It is the immanent facet of Allah that communicates with us. Hence it is very correct to call the Noor or pray to it.
'Ya ali' as a greating is just a short version of 'Ya Ali Madad" meaning 'may Ali help you'. There has been discussion of this under the subject 'YAA ALI MADAD' or 'YA ALI MADAD'. It is the thought that counts afterall.
Shams
The answer to your questions lies in the 3rd part of Dua given to us by Hazar Imam.shak00 wrote:Thank you Kmaherali for your reply.
This I am aware of, that Mawla Murtaza Ali will intercede for us in Paradise, that is if we have Worshipped Allah Tala alone, recognized the Prophet and Imam of the time, been Farman Badari and strived in the cause (in worldly matters) according to Islam. That is why I stated "remembering Ali in all worldly matters" in the last post, eg dealings in business matters, the way we socialise with people, etc, as Mawla Ali was an excellent example in manners, family matters etc .
What you have stated concerns the after life regarding Mawla Ali and the Well of Kawthar, which he will provide for us there InshAllah, and this I do not doubt at all. So should we still invoke Ali for our worldly sustenance etc?
Hazar Imam always says that he is ever with us, even when he is leaving after a Zahiri Deedar, and this I do not doubt at all too. But this means he is with us in our hearts and thoughts.
When we accept Mawla Murtaza Ali, we are proclaiming that we follow the advise of the Imam in our spiritual and worldly matters to guide us on Siratul Mustaqim. That is why I wanted to know when did the Giriyazari Tasbih originate and which Imam gave it to us?
The Jamat have a tendency to make up Du'as in the Jamat. For instance after an announcememnt they will say " May mowla....." is this correct?and is this the way Our Imam wants us to pray?
The latest trend in the Jamat is saying "Ya Ali" when greeting, and this has catched on with the majority of the Jamats (calling each other Ali). This is what I mean when I am asking such questions, because the Jamat make up half the things including actions during Du'a etc.
"Tawasalhu Indil Masahibi, Bi Mowla Kumin Haziril Maujud - Shah Karim El Husayni"
Seek at the times of difficulty the help of your lord, your present living imam - Shah Karim El Husayni."
I would suggest you read the Ali - Allah thread to better understand why we supplicate to the Imam of the time.
Shams
Here is what I know of the event, that our beloved Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] first called upon Abu Bakr to conquer the fort, but was unsuccessful, then Umar who was unsuccessful, then Uthman was was unsuccessful then he sent for Hazrat Ali who at the time was suffering from sore eyes, and the Prophet [PBUH] applied saliva to the affected parts, healing them, although Hazrat Ali was ready to go while his eyes were sore, but the prophet [PBUH] had to call him back to treat his eyes. Hazrat Ali went, got hold of the iron door and prayed to Allah Tala for success and Alhamdulillah returned victorious.nagib wrote:I am a little bit lost in my history. Can someone please remind me whose help our Beloved Prophet Muhammed [PBUH] asked during the battle of the fort of Khayber? Thanks
Nagib
Bear in mind that Hazrat Ali was physically there at the time, so calling help from Hazrat Ali physically is not the same as calling for help spiritually.
Correction - Hazrat Ali was not physically present at the start of the battle of Khyber - the prophet called upon him after Nade Aliyan was revealed to the prophet and Ali came riding to the Prophet's rescue.shak00 wrote:Here is what I know of the event, that our beloved Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] first called upon Abu Bakr to conquer the fort, but was unsuccessful, then Umar who was unsuccessful, then Uthman was was unsuccessful then he sent for Hazrat Ali who at the time was suffering from sore eyes, and the Prophet [PBUH] applied saliva to the affected parts, healing them, although Hazrat Ali was ready to go while his eyes were sore, but the prophet [PBUH] had to call him back to treat his eyes. Hazrat Ali went, got hold of the iron door and prayed to Allah Tala for success and Alhamdulillah returned victorious.nagib wrote:I am a little bit lost in my history. Can someone please remind me whose help our Beloved Prophet Muhammed [PBUH] asked during the battle of the fort of Khayber? Thanks
Nagib
Bear in mind that Hazrat Ali was physically there at the time, so calling help from Hazrat Ali physically is not the same as calling for help spiritually.
Now which was the battle where Ali told the army to ignore the Holy Qu'ran's on the spears of the enemy by stating that he was the TALKING QUR'AN??
Shams
Well I understand that anything revealed to our beloved Prophet [PBUH] through Hazrat Gibrael [AS] was compiled in the Qu'ran, so why hasn't it been compiled?Correction - Hazrat Ali was not physically present at the start of the battle of Khyber - the prophet called upon him after Nade Aliyan was revealed to the prophet and Ali came riding to the Prophet's rescue.
Shams
All this has already been discussed many times over on this Forum. Please read previous posts on the difference between the body and the Light of the Imam. Ismailism is an individual religion between the believer and his master and the belief as to the status of the Imam varies from one end to the other. Only Allah can judge the faith of each person, no Muslim has been given that prerogative though from time to time we see people trying to do this here.
It looks like you have never heard of the Nade Ali prayer recited by The Prophet [PBUH] calling for spiritual help from Hazrat Ali for the conquest of the Fort of Khayber. Is that not surprising from an Ismaili? I suggest that you first read previous discussion on the topic, else you will be lost and will waste a lot of your time and that of the other members who have joined a long time ago. .
Attempts to tell that all Ismailis have the same beliefs is not acceptable on this Board. Only the Imam of The Time define the belief in His Time and each Ismaili has his personal understanding of what the Imam means. Let's respect the pluralism within the community and the pluralism within Islam.
Admin
It looks like you have never heard of the Nade Ali prayer recited by The Prophet [PBUH] calling for spiritual help from Hazrat Ali for the conquest of the Fort of Khayber. Is that not surprising from an Ismaili? I suggest that you first read previous discussion on the topic, else you will be lost and will waste a lot of your time and that of the other members who have joined a long time ago. .
Attempts to tell that all Ismailis have the same beliefs is not acceptable on this Board. Only the Imam of The Time define the belief in His Time and each Ismaili has his personal understanding of what the Imam means. Let's respect the pluralism within the community and the pluralism within Islam.
Admin