Marriages

[saadi]

Dear friends,

I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue:
"Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?"

It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if one falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how one converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think it's not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite?


Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"

OPTIONS:

A: Yes I approve of it
B: It is okay only if the girl converts to Ismailism
C: It is okay only if the kids follow Ismailism in future
D: No it is absolutely unacceptable


Regards,
Saadi

[AceofHearts]

<P>Why are you limiting marriage to non-Ismaili's to just Muslims? What about marrying Catholics, Jews or even people who do not actively adhere to any religion?</P>

[AliSeemab]

before saying anything i would like to remind all that ismailis are the most educated, most tolerant, most liberal and have the more vast vision and most braod minded than any other muslim sect, so keeping in view i would like to give the following suggestions.<BR>1. these matters are dealt with refrence to Article 15 Personal Law of the Ismaili Constituion.<BR>2. being the sect of muslim, ismaili have no problem to marry with the non-ismailies. with any sect .. rather o&shy;ne can marry other than muslim sect there is no question about that.<BR>3. in the same time the person whether male or female must agree their parents for this marriage bcuz parents have more rights o&shy;n us and try to persuad them. we have seen marriages with consent between ismailis with non-ismailis.<BR>4.The Imam married with and her daughter also with a christian so the rest of the ismailis have example before them to follow. <BR><BR>thanx<BR>Mola Ali Madad

[star_munir]

There are differet views of different in this regard

[AliSeemab]

YAM
as i am new in this forum and after reading current issues i could not find the clear picture of marriages with non-ismailis and of Hazar Imam as i am not a regular visitor of JK n i am not with my family too.. now many people asks me abt that n i am unaware... so wil u plz kindly give me some satisfaction and take time to clear these ones ..
i will remain thankful to u ....
reagrds
Mola Ali Madad

[star_munir]

Mowla Ali Madad
There are different reasons because of which Ismailis generally avoid marrying outside community.

[koosh]

I would have to say YES<BR>I am married to an ismaili and I am a non ismaili<BR>and most likely stay a non ismili<BR>It doesn't make an ismaili any less of an ismaili if they marry a non ismaili

[star_munir]

Well you are non ismaili and I do not know what do you think about ismailism but in most of the cases of marriage between ismailis and non ismailis specially non ismaili muslims causes lots of problems after marriage as many non ismailis do not understand about ismailism.

Some time ismaili women are not allowed to go to Jamat Khana because non ismaili husband may think it is anti islamic.
he can ask women for purdah [burkha] or ask that if she is muslim why she is not reciting five times prayers etc.

[koosh]

Your right I don't understand A LOT of things that ismailis do
And when I do ask people say "thats just the way it's done"
Well, that doesn't cut it for me. I don't think you should just do something just b/c your told to. It really upsets me that his family and friend can't answer some baisc question that I have. (Ex. I was told that our kids HAD to have Ismaili names, Why?)
And when my Ismaili husband and I have kids we are going to teach them why they are doing something.

the problem is that non ismailis and ismailis don't understand about ismailism

[KJPerron]

I am married to non ismail and he has no problem for me going to khane or my kids which are his kids. I got married when I was 24yrs old. I have dated ismaili boys and the marriage was not there because of so many reasons. Then I met this man and he is wonderful man respectful man he was born catholic. He respect every thing about ismailis. He knows when there are khushalis when chandar is and all that. He even teaches his kids to respect who they are. So for me if I wanted to get married to ismail boy and belive me I wanted it would have never happend.... I was 24 years old. My family was getting worried then I met this man I guess that was my desteny to be with his man. So when someone ask a question if it is ok to marrie a non ismail I guess it is up to our luck!! that is what I think. I could be wrong.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>

ismailis are not allowed to marry non ismaili. the things are already discussed in the section of current issue. read from there and you will know answer why Imam or His family members got married with non ismailis.<BR>Where in constitution it is written that ismailis are allowed to marry non ismaili muslims. Infact by doing this o&shy;ne makes Imam sad.<BR>Even if non ismaili is ready to accept Ismailism<BR>Once there was a girl who was ismaili from Congo .she got engaged with non ismaili .She asked Abu Ali missionary that I got engaged with non ismaili and he is also ready to accept Ismailism so should I marry with him? He said you are asking after engagement what should I tell. If you had asked me before i would have said no because he accepted Ismailism not for the love of Imam but for the love for girl.<BR>Write letter to Imam and ask permission to Imam that shoikd I marry with non ismaili who is ready to be a ismaili in Jamat Khana.<BR>she wrote letter and Imam repled do mot convert him and do not get marry with him but she do not follow the farman and got married with that boy who later ran away.<BR>Imam not like that Ismailis marry a non ismaili and not a single ismaili is living a happy liffe who got married with non ismaili.

[Admin]

It really upsets me that his family and friend can't answer some baisc question that I have. (Ex. I was told that our kids HAD to have Ismaili names, Why?)
the problem is that non ismailis and ismailis don't understand about ismailism

In fact for this aspect of the question I can say this: The Imam made a farman in London in the early 1960 I think. He said our faith is linked to Islam and therefore our kids should have Muslim names.

I guess its a question of identity... So, though the Ismailis may at times not be able to explain why, there is always an explaination somewhere in the tradition...

Umed

[mickey]

Query about intercast marriages.Incase an Ismaili marries a Hindu. Now the way the marrige is conducted is in the Hindu manner. Now for conducting the marriage in the Hindu manner, the Ismaili has to do a conversion, which is essential for the marriage ritual. The ismaili does the conversion just for the sake of the marriage ritual. But the ismaili has complete faith in Imam and is a regular in khane. So my only question is, is the persn still and ismailiand allowed to come to khane, as his/her faith is in the Imam.

I have one more query. Many people have inter caste marriages and they get converted to other religion and say now on i will follow that religion. So what does that mean. Does the person has to tell the Tariqah board that i wont cme to khane form now on or something else. And wha if after some years, that person wants to be an Ismaili again.

[shamsu]

I have been in those shoes for almost 24 hrs but my mother blew a gasket when she heard I was going to convert for 24 hours and I chose to not do so.

My understanding is that you have to undergo baiyat again to convert back into Ismailism. Without Baiyat you are not under the protection of Imam officially.

By the way, the girl I was thinking about converting for, left me after almost 10 years and I felt like piece of excreta for choosing her over my Mowla for about 24 hours many years ago.

Shams

[shamsu]

Mickey what you are saying is similar to saying you are married to Ismailism then you marry hinduism for one night then you want to continue sleeping with Ismailism.

I say marry who you want to sleep with and stay dedicated forever.

If you converted to make someone happy then realise that that person doesnt understand enough about your relationship with your Imam to ask you to sacrifice the most Important thing an Ismaili has in his entire existence from the begining of time.

Anyway whats done is done and cannot be undone. So do you really want to die a non Ismaili?

Today could be the day you leave this world.

Get off your backside go to mukhisaheb tell him in detail how you messed up for "LOVE" and ask him to accept you back into Ismailism unless you want to die a non muslim then thats a different situation.

"Ghat na kaha narji maanae, tae nae mahadan ma nahi poocchai"

and Mukhi is the mukhi of the ghat.

Imam SMS has mentioned in Farman that if you leave Ismailism and want to come back he will accept you back but NOT IF YOU KEEP LEAVING AND RETURNING.

DO NOT FORSAKE YOUR BAIYAT NO MATTER WHAT.

and if you have, go on and rectify the situation ASAP.

Shams

[shamsu]

I have read in Kalame Imame Mubeen where Imam SMS has directly instructed the jamat to name their children after the Imams generations names.

Shams

[mickey]

Its just a query. Ok tell me what if the person is continuing going to jamatkhana, and the person o&shy;nly realises later that its a mistake. Is this a rule of tariqah board, or its a personal suggestion. See the person is clear in thoughts about Hazar Imam. acc to what i feel is the heart should be clear. Even after u do baiyat and are not clear in ur thoughts, whats the use. What will the Mukhi saheb do again. I am just confused about this concept. Because there are many peope who say from now o&shy;n i have chnaged to some other cast and will not come to Jamatkhana. Do they ahve to go and tell mukhi shabe that they wont coem to Jamatkhana, or is there some other ritual.

[shamsu]

Mickey, going to Jamatkhanna is not the mistake. The mistake was leaving the Baiyat of Imam.

Ok lets look at this example

A girl divorces her husband but is still in love with him so she keeps living with him. now what is the mistake here?

Her divorcing him? or continuing to live with him?

I think she should remarry the man and go on with her life.


The Baiyat is like establishing a relationship with Imam.

OK

lets try a personal example

Why did u marry your wife? you both loved each other and could have lived together because in your heart you love each other right?

What difference does it make if some pundit who you probably never met before and dont particularly care about spoke some words in sanskrit ad you walked around a small fire?

Mickey The Mukhi IS HAZAR IMAM HIMSELF in the physical abscence of the Imam while he is on his seat.

Understand this simple fact and get this matter over with. Confess to the mukhi in private and ask him to guide you.

what are you concerned about?

you converted to hinduism for a girl and now you are feeling ashamed to talk to the Imam's mukhi in order to save your soul.

Just do it man

whats the worst thing that can happen?

I will tell you---you may pass on from this world before you get a chance to re-establish your relationship with the Imam.

once you have talked to mukhi and if you wish we can talk about the Farmans of Imam SMS about Baiyat.

Shams

[ShamsB]

I am new to this forum and fairly young..so i apologize if i hurt any ismaili or nonismaili feelings by posting this message.<BR><BR>1. In islam, men are permitted to marry from within the Ahle Kitab (i.e. people of the book) that includes christians and jews..women o&shy;n the otherhand are o&shy;nly permitted to marry other muslims.<BR><BR>2.&nbsp;as pir sadardeen said in&nbsp;a very well known ghatpat ginan..<BR>"apri naat chodi par naate vevar na kije".<BR><BR>in the case of the nonismaili spouse...most ismailies follow ismailism with blind faith..the imam is the sole authority in our faith..our faith..ismailism as a whole is based o&shy;n the imam..it is difficult for us to explain this to an outsider.<BR>not o&shy;nly that when your children are born and they give baiyat..the oath of allegiance..without which they can't partake in any ismaili religious activities they forsake any and all other religions..so you can't take them to church and teach them about christianity because then they forsake ismailism and their baiyat...at the same time the teachings are in conflict..islam will teach them that christ can't be the son of god..and christianity will teach them christ is the son of god...and that will confuse your children even further...<BR>i have dated non ismailies in the past and have come up against a brick wall when trying to explain some of the batin's of our faith..not o&shy;nly that our faith is also very very personal..each individual has their own relationship to the imam of the time...dependant o&shy;n their level of spirituality.<BR><BR>once again, my apologies if i have offended anyone.<BR><BR>Shamez<BR>

[unnalhaq]

Dear friends,

I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue:
"Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?"

OPTIONS:

A: Yes I approve of it
B: It is okay only if the girl converts to Ismailism
C: It is okay only if the kids follow Ismailism in future
D: No it is absolutely unacceptable

Regards,
Saadi

A: Yes I approve of it

[zehi]

Hi Friends,
I'm new to this website and I myself have a doubt relating to this. Is an Ismaili allowed to marry a Non-Ismaili?...I would request ppl who post their answers to quote their source if possible or to be sure their answer is to the best of their knowledge coz this is very important for me to know abt r religion. Also, some websites state that Ismailis believe in reincarnation?.....As far as my knowledge goes, I don't think so........this is our last birth....but pls do let me know ur views as well.....as I'm not very well-versed in Ismaili tradition.....thanks in advance to all.

[unnalhaq]

Hi Friends,
I'm new to this website and I myself have a doubt relating to this. Is an Ismaili allowed to marry a Non-Ismaili?...I would request ppl who post their answers to quote their source if possible or to be sure their answer is to the best of their knowledge coz this is very important for me to know abt r religion. Also, some websites state that Ismailis believe in reincarnation?.....As far as my knowledge goes, I don't think so........this is our last birth....but pls do let me know ur views as well.....as I'm not very well-versed in Ismaili tradition.....thanks in advance to all.

Ismailis are free to marry whom they please. However, as a Muslim there are instances in The Quran that limits us with in Ahel-AL Katab family.
You are correct about reincarnation, as an Ismaili Muslim this is the only life we are blessed with and the is no reincarnation. The further source of this info you can obtain from your Local Tariqa board. If they are unable to find it, ask them to look in their conversion (aka "new admission") manual/guide.
In regards to "Ismaili Tradition" well, it is Shia Tradition as The Imam has explained to us in numerous very recent farmans. Ismaili is a faith or Doctrine or Tariqa with in Shia Tradition. Also Ismaili Faith is comprised of various practices, for example there is Hunzai, Budakshan, Khoja and on and on. You may ask what is Khoja tradition well this is the practice that pir Sadardin introduced in the Indian subcontinent when people were converted from Hindu to Ismaili and then Shia Muslim concepts were introduced.

[zehi]

Hi,
Thank u so much for ur reply. It was very useful for me. But I do have one more doubt, I am a khoja Ismaili and hence would like to know more abt the concept of Dasond - IS it a must for every Ismaili who earns? Also, is dasond only based on salary earning or also on any money or gift received?....Pls do let me know abt this. Thanks in advance.

[unnalhaq]

Hi,
Thank u so much for ur reply. It was very useful for me. But I do have one more doubt, I am a khoja Ismaili and hence would like to know more abt the concept of Dasond - IS it a must for every Ismaili who earns? Also, is dasond only based on salary earning or also on any money or gift received?....Pls do let me know abt this. Thanks in advance.

YW. For Alms/Thiets (in Khoja practice is known as dasond) and that may be someone else can explain to you a little better from the Khoja Practice as I have very limited knowledge of the Khoja practice. But I can give you some general concept of the giving. As you may know that in Catholic tradition it is 10% of your income (every time you are paid) and in Sunna tradition it is 2 1/2% of your networth per year is given once a year in the month of Shaban. In Khoja practice there are different levels (members) where % varies but the minimum is 12.5% or 1/8 of your Net Income [not Gross-Income] given one a month on a New Moon Night. Now depending upon what region that one (Khoja) Jamet is from they may look at gifts, coupons and/or food and water is calculated and given ("offered" being the new preferred word). And as the Levels or members go from 1/8 to 1/4 other things like gifts and food are more closely watched or not accepted and if accepted then one in those levels does maintains 1/4 offering.
I hope this was of help and you should try the Dasond section in this Customs and Traditions section.

[zehi]

Hi,
Thank u so much for ur reply.

[Irfan_Kadiwal]

Hi,

According to me the option is D.
i.e. It is absolutely unacceptable to marry a non-ismaili.

Here is the justification for the same.

No matter how much ever you are strong your love towards your spouse is a non-ismaili will never understand our faith completely.Even many of the ismaili still haven't understood it

Initially there will be some understanding and respect towards the faith from the other person but as time goes by it would become routine for him/her and our practice methods would become boring & irritating for him/her.

Coz we go to JK daily (morning & even),we give dashond,follow many kriyas etc which seem to be coming in the way(for a non-ismaili) of worldly pleasures such as partying in the evening,late night discos,drinking,smoking etc

This all in turn will definately affect the couples children.

So better marry an ISMAILI

Even in Ginan its mentioned
"Apni naath chodi par naath wahwar na kijeye"

[unnalhaq]

Hi,

According to me the option is D.
i.e. It is absolutely unacceptable to marry a non-ismaili.

You have a right to your opinion. And I agree

Here is the justification for the same.
...as time goes by it would become routine for him/her and our practice methods would become boring & irritating for him/her.

Well, I have been irritated by it for a long time too.
However, saying about non-Ismailis:

Coz we go to JK daily (morning & even),we give dashond,follow many kriyas etc which seem to be coming in the way(for a non-ismaili) of worldly pleasures such as partying in the evening,late night discos,drinking,smoking etc

Would be generalizing it. You would not want me to say Ismailis don't bathe or smell like spice rack because that would not be fair even though that may be the majority of the cases. Would it?

Even in Ginan its mentioned
"Apni naath chodi par naath wahwar na kijeye"

The Ismaili tradition I come from does not have Ginans not I claim to know the language but over time I have folks mentioned the above line in this context and I had an opportunity to meet some folks (from Bhora and Imam shahies, who have the common ginans and language with Indian origin Ismails)on my last trip over seas and was able to understand the meaning and what was that the pir was trying to convey. And the context you are implying is a literal context. It’s about leaving one’s faith (Leaving the Imam's family/relationship), not interpersonal relationship but rather spiritual relationship between you and the Imam.

[Irfan_Kadiwal]

However, saying about non-Ismailis:

Coz we go to JK daily (morning & even),we give dashond,follow many kriyas etc which seem to be coming in the way(for a non-ismaili) of worldly pleasures such as partying in the evening,late night discos,drinking,smoking etc

Would be generalizing it. You would not want me to say Ismailis don't bathe or smell like spice rack because that would not be fair even though that may be the majority of the cases. Would it?

HELLO MR DON'T U THINK YOU SHOULD MIND YOUR THE WORDS U R USING...I DON'T KNOW WHETHER U R AN ISMAILI OR NOT WHATEVER BE THE CASE...U SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT GENERALIZATION I MENTIONED IS PROBABLY WHAT U WILL OBSERVE OVER THE PERIOD ....CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF..... ABOUT ISMAILI'S NOT BATHING AND ALL THATS A REALLI STUPID AND GENERAL DUMB GENERALIZATION THAT U R MAKING

Even in Ginan its mentioned
"Apni naath chodi par naath wahwar na kijeye"

The Ismaili tradition I come from does not have Ginans not I claim to know the language but over time I have folks mentioned the above line in this context and I had an opportunity to meet some folks (from Bhora and Imam shahies, who have the common ginans and language with Indian origin Ismails)on my last trip over seas and was able to understand the meaning and what was that the pir was trying to convey. And the context you are implying is a literal context. It’s about leaving one’s faith (Leaving the Imam's family/relationship), not interpersonal relationship but rather spiritual relationship between you and the Imam.

YOUR DISCUSSIONS WERE AGAIN WITH SOME NON-ISMAILI's AND THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE INTERPRETATION OF GINAN's BY AN ISMAILI AND A NON-ISMAILI...
I M NOT SAYING THAT MY INTERPRETATION IS 100% CORRECT YA IT MIGHT BE HAVING OTHER MEANING'S TOO....

[Irfan_Kadiwal]

However, saying about non-Ismailis:

Coz we go to JK daily (morning & even),we give dashond,follow many kriyas etc which seem to be coming in the way(for a non-ismaili) of worldly pleasures such as partying in the evening,late night discos,drinking,smoking etc

Would be generalizing it. You would not want me to say Ismailis don't bathe or smell like spice rack because that would not be fair even though that may be the majority of the cases. Would it?

HELLO Mr DON'T U THINK U SHOULD MIND YOUR LANGUAGE...what i said was not a generalization but it is the case u will observe in most of the scenarios...and its a FACT....about ISMAILI's being not bathing and smelling like spice rack ....why are u making such DUMB AND IDIOTIC STATMENT on ismailies which i can easily guess are applicable to YOURSELF ...This is a generalization and not what i said

[anarbhaloo]

Ya Ali Madad
I would like to know if we hv any ismaili web site for marraige committe or anyway of finding suitable partners. Appreciate your help.
thank you

[unnalhaq]

Ya Ali Madad
I would like to know if we hv any ismaili web site for marraige committe or anyway of finding suitable partners. Appreciate your help.
thank you

I have found google to be the best site to serach; Try it and good luck.